Should Historical Films be Accurately Portrayed?

[Cyber]

No. Tragically there were any number of concentration camps and sub-camps with Germany itself, along with Nazi pre-war euthanasia centers.

Yes the euthanasia centres are very rarely bought up and were operating in Germany before 1939. Nurses and doctors in Germany were trained to euthanise or sterilise those classified as "deformed" or "feeble minded". Numbers are hotly debated and how these were conducted was not consistent.

German physicians and medical institutions across Germany utilized an endless supply of concentration camp prisoners, primarily as involuntary subjects for unethical, often fatal, medical experiments.

I am only pointing these out as this was happening in civilian areas. In the German education system in addition to jews, gyspies and slavs, they were also taught about"lives unworthy of life" (lebensunwertes Leben) to describe people they deemed unfit to live and a burden to society. This concept was used to justify the systematic, state-sponsored murder of institutionalized patients with disabilities including people with autism.

eugenics was taught to everyone in Germany, everybody knew programs that people were like livestock, only the strongest and best lines should pass on progeny.

And Germans learned this from America. eugenics was considered a mainstream, widely accepted, and "progressive" scientific, academic, and social movement in the United States during the 1920s. In the 1920s, eugenics was widely taught in high schools and universities, featured at state fairs, and supported by many prominent scientists and social reformers. The movement was popular among intellectuals, politicians, and the public as a method for improving the human race, which led to the passage of forced sterilization laws in many states and restrictive immigration laws. The popularity of these ideas was evidenced by the 1924 Johnson-Reed Act, which was influenced by eugenicists, and the 1927 Supreme Court decision in Buck v. Bell, which upheld forced sterilization. Eugenicists aimed to significantly alter the U.S. population, with some proponents hoping to eventually sterilize one-tenth of the population.

As nuerodiverse people it's important to remember this whole episode of American and German history has been largely erased from memory.

 

[Crossbreed]

Margaret Sanger (of Planned Parenthood) &
Melvil Dewey (of Dewey Decimal System fame)
were two major players in the American eugenics movement.

 

[velociraptor]

If a historical account includes scantily clad vampire hookers acting with brazen impropriety, then it is important to uphold the accuracy to the highest standard. If the historical episode in question did not, in fact, contain the aforementioned... Some creative license may be necessary.

My 2 cents.

 

[Judge]

If a historical account includes scantily clad vampire hookers acting with brazen impropriety, then it is important to uphold the accuracy to the highest standard. If the historical episode in question did not, in fact, contain the aforementioned... Some creative license may be necessary.

My 2 cents.

Don't you mean "Scantily Vlad" vampire hookers? Just keepin' it real.

 

[velociraptor]

Don't you mean "Scantily Vlad" vampire hookers?

 

[Cyber]

Margaret Sanger (of Planned Parenthood) &
Melvil Dewey (of Dewey Decimal System fame)
were two major players in the American eugenics movement.

Claude Binet was the father of eugenics and scientific racism also created the template for what would become the modern IQ test which Nazi Dr Hans Asperger used to save some Autistic kids and send the rest to gas chambers.

 

[Cyber]

If a historical account includes scantily clad vampire hookers acting with brazen impropriety, then it is important to uphold the accuracy to the highest standard. If the historical episode in question did not, in fact, contain the aforementioned... Some creative license may be necessary.

My 2 cents.

I recommend watching Traci Lords in Blade I, her part in the opening film of the now legendary movie franchise was iconic.

 

[Judge]

I recommend watching Traci Lords in Blade I, her part in the opening film of the now legendary movie franchise was iconic.

LOL..oh yeah..the Rave and shower of blood. Great sequence.

 

[velociraptor]

I recommend watching Traci Lords in Blade I, her part in the opening film of the now legendary movie franchise was iconic

Agreed. Also liked her in Not of this Earth. Nurses! Hawt!

Also a film of great historical significance.

[trying to stay on topic and failing hard]

 

[Crossbreed]

Claude Binet was the father of eugenics and scientific racism also created the template for what would become the modern IQ test...

IQ testing can be helpful for non-eugenic purposes, like adapting teaching styles to the students' needs.
That is true whether one's IQ is high, average or low.

Asynchronous [WAIS] IQ sub-scores are a good indicator for an autism diagnosis, particularly if one's nonverbal IQ is shown to be notably higher than the rest.

 

[Cyber]

IQ testing can be helpful for non-eugenic purposes, like adapting teaching styles to the students' needs.
That is true whether one's IQ is high, average or low.

Asynchronous [WAIS] IQ sub-scores is a good indicator for an autism diagnosis, particularly if one's nonverbal IQ is shown to be notably higher than the rest.

Agreed

 

[Judge]

Then again, on rare occasion that there are model films of historical accuracy and authenticity:

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I think it really depends on the historical subject in question. General movies taking place during a specific war like Vietnam but not about an actual battle or person don’t need to be accurate as the main story is fictional and movies about stuff that happened in the Middle Ages or Renaissance don’t either. Biographies should be mostly accurate with a few fictional details added in if necessary.

 

[Mary Terry]

Then again, on rare occasion that there are model films of historical accuracy and authenticity:

I have a friend from law school who is a direct descendant of Pickett. Her last name is Pickett. That's not really uncommon in the South - or the North, for that matter. I had ancestors who fought on both sides of the war.

 

[Judge]

I had ancestors who fought on both sides of the war.

Me too. Made me very sad when I once learned of it. It's what made seeing the 1982 tv mini series "The Blue and the Gray" hard to watch.

I've always dreaded the possibility of my own kin at Fredericksburg and other places actually trying to kill one another on the same battlefield. Much like the military leaders who knew one another personally who fought on both sides.

Such a tragedy.

 

[Judge]

Thinking of the film Gettysburg", I did find the film "Gods And Generals" amusing, particularly how they depicted the battle of Fredericksburg, Virginia. They did a good job of attempting to keep it all visually in perspective, with the exception of the city itself. It would have been impossible to film that area as it was in 1862 compared to modern times.

Yet they recreated it in another location that worked reasonably well, except that the town of Harpers Ferry, West Virginia is very is much more varied in elevation in comparison. Which made some of the scenes a bit odd to those of us who have visited both cities. Cities I highly recommend you see if in the vicinity of Northern Virginia, especially if you appreciate history.

Though much as with the case of "Gettysburg"as well, I have to give great credit to director, producer and screenwriter Ron Maxwell for attempting to deliver films as authentic as is possible. On a level that would make most folks in Hollywood puke.

However it's also not lost on me how much criticism Maxwell received for "Gods And Generals", given its viewpoint from a Southern perspective, both socially and politically. The price he paid to keep authenticity of the past colliding with the politics of the present.

 

[Jonn]

That is not true, unless you are referring to just the Soviet controlled East-Germany.

Would the full implementation of the The Morgenthau Plan have caused starvation in Germany?

The short answer is yes — if the Morgenthau Plan had been fully implemented exactly as written in 1944, it would almost certainly have caused mass starvation in Germany.

It was implemented for two years after the war.
The reason it was replaced by the Marshall Plan was primarily due to the threat from the U.S.S.R.
A strong industrial Germany was necessary to combat this.

 

[Jonn]

With opposing views of thought on such issues, there's no telling what Hollywood would or will do when it comes to the truth of such events outside the realm of a pure documentary,

Documentaries couldn't be trusted, either.

 

[Jonn]

Chaos was the real explanation for first year's famine, not conspiracy. There is no evidence about anything else. Those claims are just yet more conspiracy theories among stuff like "holocaust didn't happen, it was all the allies' fabrication".

Firstly, how do you explain why the allies refused to allow German goods to be sold for food?

It is ironic how you used the example of: "Holocaust Denial".
One could equally say: "Man-made German Famine Denial".
The difference being, to the victor the spoils, including the ability to rewrite history in their favour.

BTW, my mother told me that she had no problem obtaining food during the war.
It was when it ended that the problem arose.
She also said that cigarettes mitigated the hunger.

I believed my mother.
There was no reason not to.
She lived it.

 

[UFO]

It was implemented for two years after the war.

The Morgenthau Plan, which was a long term political plan, had opposition against it among both US government. What was implemented, was the JCS 1067, a short term military doctrine. Morgenthau wasn't happy of such diminishing of his ideas.

Firstly, how do you explain why the allies refused to allow German goods to be sold for food?

Short answer: By not assuming malicious murder attempt.

The long and thorough answer:

This whole subject is not my "special interest" so inaccuracies might be around, but I tried to fact check things and names.

You are probably referring to the policy of controlling Germany's recovery to avoid repeating revanche politics of 20s and 30s. Allies were not thrilled by an idea of Germany having even a remote chance to rebuild its war industry. There was also an attitude of blaming and punishing the German people for Hitler, so they were not considered to deserve same prosperity. So the purpose of plans and doctrines was to both to avoid a new arming and to make sure that German's standard of living wouldn't be better than European average, ie. to keep Germany so weak that it wouldn't consider a new WW3.

For these things, Morgenthau suggested that the new Germany should be an agrarian country. Main focus would be in developing the agriculture to feed its people, and dismantling the heavy industry permanently.

JCS 1067 was a set of instructions to the US military occupation, that followed the same logic (but different motivation) of developing the agriculture in a minimum amount that was needed to keep famine and following civil unrest away, and to not pour US resources to the country that was supposed to be left to a civilian government following a short occupation (yes, it is always about the money - US was still a little bit isolationist at that moment, but that changed after the war). The industry wasn't going to be totally destroyed as in the Morgenthau's original plan, but it wasn't going to be allowed to produce more than what was needed to upkeep the society (political decision for those above mentioned purposes).

Of course, it wasn't that easy, and USA (and allies) became quickly aware that they couldn't just "upkeep the society until there is a civilian government". Agrarian Germany couldn't work without any income from exports (or from pockets of USA, who was the only one that could afford such extra costs). There wasn't enough land for the population (hence, that "if Morgenthau plan would have been followed..."). And, of course, Germany's own natural resources (coal) were needed in the whole Europe. So they had to start developing surplus production (against the doctrine of JCS 1067). This change of policy started as soon as mid-1945. Last restrictions were removed around 1946 or 1947, when a whole new doctrine JCS 1779 was introduced. Marshall Aid followed 1948.

Here's an additional catch about that buying the food thing:

Things happen slowly. Neither agriculture or industrial production can appear immediately. Recovery takes years. Because of this, the Europe was rationing until 1947-1950 depending of the country. The rationing means that the sales of rationed goods both domestically and internationally is restricted until the supply exceeds the minimum demand.

So there wasn't even food to buy, and that was a global problem. US didn't supply food from its own supplies only to Germany, but also to other European countries (hence, rationing meaning not enough supply even for their own demand). US had a good production surplus (after all, there wasn't any war in USA), but it wasn't that good that it could feed the whole Europe. Hitler's Nero Decree (scorched earth tactics) left Germany in 1945 worse than what other countries were (in Germany it turned to a massive figurative suicide pact with no intention leaving anything behind after Hitler's regime), so the need for food was and remained even more severe (it didn't help to limit any industrial production to fill only domestic needs). The population to feed was about same as France and UK combined.

One could equally say: "Man-made German Famine Denial".

You just did a motte-and-bailey argument by changing wording to more accurate "man-made famine" from the "murder through starvation"...

Difference is that the holocaust and the course of WW2 events are clearly documented. Planned genocide of German population is not.

BTW, my mother told me that she had no problem obtaining food during the war.

No wonder. The war economy didn't collapse until late-1944 when the war was moved to Germany's soil. Before that the rationing and imports from occupied areas made sure that most people could keep living as usual.