Selfishness?

[Slime_Punk]

Also it's kind of weird to me that certain types of selfishness get better responses from people than others -- if you need to lay in bed for a few hours each day, people will consider you to be lazy... but if you lift weights instead, people will tell you how awesome you look like it's anymore positive self-medication than the other. I sometimes don't understand the discrepancy, but I'm glad that a lot of my 'selfish' endeavors are applauded by society.

 

[AspieChris]

Pulling your own weight in terms of a relationship is really an agreed-upon task. If you find yourself doing things you didn't sign up for, maybe it's time to start saying, "I can do x, y and z all day, but if you can handle that thing, that would be awesome".

If your SO is reasonable, you can probably reach common ground without a screaming match.

I don’t have any issues in my relationship with my wife. Perhaps it was a mistake to include her in this thread. It was just the easiest example to explain what I was talking about. Although I do normally put her needs in front of mine.

 

[AspieChris]

I sometimes don't understand the discrepancy, but I'm glad that a lot of my 'selfish' endeavors are applauded by society

I have the same experience. I have never understood the difference between self-care, i.e. talking a nap when I’m tired, and just being selfish or lazy by lying in bed when there’s work to be done.

 

[Rodafina]

I have the same experience. I have never understood the difference between self-care, i.e. talking a nap when I’m tired, and just being selfish or lazy by lying in bed when there’s work to be done.

I think it relates to your ability to function.

Take the old analogy of the air mask on an airplane. You have to affix yours first and then you tend to anyone else who needs help. Survival and selfishness should be two different things. I understand how the waters can get murky there, but there are definitely cultural influences on people that make them feel like meeting their own needs is a selfish endeavor.

Sure it’s semantics, but I like to think of it as self-centered, rather than selfish. We all know that there is no one else out there besides ourselves who can truly take care of ourselves. We can get a little assistance here and there through the world (maybe), but there is only one commander of the ship.

 

[AspieChris]

It’s difficult for me to see something that needs doing or someone who needs help and not want to go do it or offer assistance. Even when it’s something small. And I have a lot of skills, so I’m always able to help. To go with the airplane analogy, my brain always tells me to help everyone else get their mask on and then go check on the pilot without even realizing that I don’t have my own mask.

I just don’t know where the line is between self-care and selfishness. And usually when I have thought to put my own wants/needs first, something bad happens and I just feel like a jerk for not having done something to prevent it. The end result here is that I never leave time for myself to recharge. And I’m starting to recognize that I actually need more time than an average person.

 

[Rodafina]

And I’m starting to recognize that I actually need more time than an average person.

I’m just realizing this too. It’s a pretty difficult pill to swallow.

 

[Hypnalis]

I just don’t know where the line is between self-care and selfishness.

Give yourself enough time (3 to 6 months or so) to figure this out and gradually change your behavior as you go.

The goal is for you to manage this more-or-less automatically, and you can't expect to reach that quickly.
There's every chance you'll get some "quick wins" though - just getting rid of the biggest inappropriate commitments should free up quite a lot of your time.

Some things you can do early on:

* Stop giving away your time
You've been playing poker with your hole cards face up. You need to stop giving away your time until you learn how to trade it.
Stop offering to do things for other people. Stop indicating you're capable of doing freebies. Stop doing other people's work for them just because you can. The world doesn't work that way. Humans aren't wired to do that without a negotiation.
Important: do this with no drama at all. Don't tell anyone, especially family and colleagues. Never signal changes like this - it just turns your hole cards face up again.
* Get good at refusals and at negotiating down an activity.
Be patient: this isn't something one can get right the first couple of times. Especially an Aspie. So at first, allow yourself to be a bit too generous in exchange for keeping the exchanges undramatic.
* Set some personal objectives for things to do with the time that's released.
Something IRL, not online. And it has to be something solely for you. What you're looking for is essentially a displacement activity. So no volunteering
It doesn't have to be productive, useful, or have any direct effect on your personal development.
Don't just expand normal household activities. But new construction or a major garden project would be fine
Review it again as you get better at managing your time.
* Work on learning how to recognize vampires.
Exchanging favors is a natural aspect of human group interaction. Participating this this kind of exchange with real people is a good thing. Vampires just hijack the normal interactions. They can be handled if you identify them in time.
This isn't easy for an Aspie. Deficits in the core skills are literally part of the definition of ASD.
But you don't need the skills to be a vampire - you just need to see them, to identify real people who might pay you back, and to perform the basic negotiations

 

[MNAus]

Oh wow, what a great thread. It's treasure trove of helpfulness. I have this issue too, so would love to hear more thoughts.

Have you ever been inside a true bachelor pad when he wasn’t expecting company? I have, too many times. men can be absolutely disgusting.

Though to be fair, having a teenage daughter will rapidly disabuse you of any misconceptions you might have had as a boy about girls being sugar and spice. Seeing behind THAT curtain was an eye opener

Work flows naturally from lazy people to diligent people.

I need to get that framed and put on my wall. Really. In my heart I know it to be true, but I always sort of avoid the idea by having an excuse for the other person ready that perhaps it's my fault a bit, or the universe's fault.

Letting something become routine, then stopping, will annoy the one receiving the favors.
Yes - it's unfair. Even forcing you to defend your own time rather than the person asking handling it is unfair.
But a lot of people do that. And not just narcissists.

Learn to recognize it, and a few management techniques, and it will become easy.

Wisdom here. It's true. I've managed to get myself into this situation a bit, to no-one's benefit really. I'm not a lawnmower partner but just feel compelled, more on this further down with the oxygen masks.

The short version is "don't JADE" (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).

Most people provide a "nice" explanation for a refusal out of misplaced politeness.
But that that requires the other person to be polite too. And you didn't open this thread to report that you're dealing with polite people Politeness is a counter-productive with a vampire.

Prepare some minimal "closed" responses. And prepare a follow-up in case it's needed.

At no point should you do any of "JADE". All of them can be treated as negotiable or "open" by vampires, who will have more experience at this than you.

This is great stuff. Really appreciate this. I guess it's also not just appropriate with vampires, but with anyone who has an expectation that you doing stuff for them is the natural order of things (where one has kind of set this expectation).

Take the old analogy of the air mask on an airplane. You have to affix yours first and then you tend to anyone else who needs help. Survival and selfishness should be two different things. I understand how the waters can get murky there, but there are definitely cultural influences on people that make them feel like meeting their own needs is a selfish endeavor.

It’s difficult for me to see something that needs doing or someone who needs help and not want to go do it or offer assistance. Even when it’s something small. And I have a lot of skills, so I’m always able to help. To go with the airplane analogy, my brain always tells me to help everyone else get their mask on and then go check on the pilot without even realizing that I don’t have my own mask.

I just don’t know where the line is between self-care and selfishness. And usually when I have thought to put my own wants/needs first, something bad happens and I just feel like a jerk for not having done something to prevent it. The end result here is that I never leave time for myself to recharge.

Exactly. And more than this, the negative emotions that get telegraphed into my brain are - and I choose my words carefully - approaching unbearable. To use that airplane analogy, while I'm busy putting my mask on I'll look round the plane and I'll see everyone sat there and get a mainline dose of pure negative emotions. Volume level 11. Drinking from the fire-hydrant level. It's not about the reaction I have to that, but the feeling of pure sorrow that just seems to pour on in, like X-Men's Cyclops with no mask, but in reverse. So yeah, I go help others first. But to continue the analogy, I'm no help, cos I run out of air. And in real life that means stuff gets half done, or put on the to-do list just to stop the negative feeling, and promptly forgotten.

I haven't worked out what's causing this, but I think it's a mix between being unable to read emotion with any sort of nuance, having black/white thinking and actually sensing emotions at a higher volume than most. For example, if I see someone eating alone in public I'll nearly weep and will have to leave the area. I'm training myself to be able to sit with that highly unpleasant sensation for longer and longer, but the temptation is to QUICKLY sort things out to turn down the volume, as you would when you power up your stereo and find you left it at max volume. ETA: My rationale is that if I can give myself the ability to deal with the sensation for a bit, I give myself the space to form a more considered response or approach.

Some things you can do early on:

This is super helpful!!!!!

Sorry for the hijack again Chris, but this was such a helpful thread.

 

[AspieChris]

Oh wow, what a great thread. It's treasure trove of helpfulness. I have this issue too, so would love to hear more thoughts.


Though to be fair, having a teenage daughter will rapidly disabuse you of any misconceptions you might have had as a boy about girls being sugar and spice. Seeing behind THAT curtain was an eye opener


I need to get that framed and put on my wall. Really. In my heart I know it to be true, but I always sort of avoid the idea by having an excuse for the other person ready that perhaps it's my fault a bit, or the universe's fault.


Wisdom here. It's true. I've managed to get myself into this situation a bit, to no-one's benefit really. I'm not a lawnmower partner but just feel compelled, more on this further down with the oxygen masks.


This is great stuff. Really appreciate this. I guess it's also not just appropriate with vampires, but with anyone who has an expectation that you doing stuff for them is the natural order of things (where one has kind of set this expectation).




Exactly. And more than this, the negative emotions that get telegraphed into my brain are - and I choose my words carefully - approaching unbearable. To use that airplane analogy, while I'm busy putting my mask on I'll look round the plane and I'll see everyone sat there and get a mainline dose of pure negative emotions. Volume level 11. Drinking from the fire-hydrant level. It's not about the reaction I have to that, but the feeling of pure sorrow that just seems to pour on in, like X-Men's Cyclops with no mask, but in reverse. So yeah, I go help others first. But to continue the analogy, I'm no help, cos I run out of air. And in real life that means stuff gets half done, or put on the to-do list just to stop the negative feeling, and promptly forgotten.

I haven't worked out what's causing this, but I think it's a mix between being unable to read emotion with any sort of nuance, having black/white thinking and actually sensing emotions at a higher volume than most. For example, if I see someone eating alone in public I'll nearly weep and will have to leave the area. I'm training myself to be able to sit with that highly unpleasant sensation for longer and longer, but the temptation is to QUICKLY sort things out to turn down the volume, as you would when you power up your stereo and find you left it at max volume. ETA: My rationale is that if I can give myself the ability to deal with the sensation for a bit, I give myself the space to form a more considered response or approach.


This is super helpful!!!!!

Sorry for the hijack again Chris, but this was such a helpful thread.

No hijack here. I love your input!

 

[AspieChris]

Give yourself enough time (3 to 6 months or so) to figure this out and gradually change your behavior as you go.

The goal is for you to manage this more-or-less automatically, and you can't expect to reach that quickly.
There's every chance you'll get some "quick wins" though - just getting rid of the biggest inappropriate commitments should free up quite a lot of your time.

Some things you can do early on:

* Stop giving away your time
You've been playing poker with your hole cards face up. You need to stop giving away your time until you learn how to trade it.
Stop offering to do things for other people. Stop indicating you're capable of doing freebies. Stop doing other people's work for them just because you can. The NT world doesn't work that way. Humans aren't wired to do that without a negotiation.
Important: do this with no drama at all. Don't tell anyone, especially family and colleagues. Never signal changes like this - it just turns your hole cards face up again.
* Get good at refusals and at negotiating down an activity.
Be patient: this isn't something one can get right the first couple of times. Especially an Aspie. So at first, allow yourself to be a bit too generous in exchange for keeping the exchanges undramatic.
* Set some personal objectives for things to do with the time that's released.
Something IRL, not online. And it has to be something solely for you. What you're looking for is essentially a displacement activity. So no volunteering
It doesn't have to be productive, useful, or have any direct effect on your personal development.
Don't just expand normal household activities. But new construction or a major garden project would be fine
Review it again as you get better at managing your time.
* Work on learning how to recognize vampires.
Exchanging favors is a natural aspect of human group interaction. Participating this this kind of exchange with real people is a good thing. Vampires just hijack the normal interactions. They can be handled if you identify them in time.
This isn't easy for an Aspie. Deficits in the core skills are literally part of the definition of ASD.
But you don't need the skills to be a vampire - you just need to see them, to identify real people who might pay you back, and to perform the basic negotiations

I have tried it all. Absolutely everything you said has been something I have thought of, tried to put into practice, and ultimately caused me more stress. It’s all very good advice but the reality is that my life only gets worse when I’m thinking about my life. It keeps me from sleeping. It robs me of any peace when I have any downtime. It leads me to drinking more, in a really bad way (not the happy, fun kind of getting drunk). Even just typing this will lead me to thinking about how difficult my life actually is when I’m driving to work in a few minutes instead of blasting the radio and singing in my car.

What I have done that almost works is simple, and the simplicity is the reason it works. The first words out of my mouth needs to be some version of “No”. Whenever I’m in a situation that I might say ‘I can fix that for you’, I don’t offer. I just let that thought sit in my head for a while. I’ve learned that I can always change my mind and be a hero later. (The exception is with my wife and son).

But it’s still something that makes me feel selfish when I see them having problems that I can fix., particularly if it’s an easy fix that I can do for no $$.

 

[AspieChris]

Though to be fair, having a teenage daughter will rapidly disabuse you of any misconceptions you might have had as a boy about girls being sugar and spice. Seeing behind THAT curtain was an eye opener

I have known some women, young and old, who are absolutely disgusting. They usually look and smell nice when out on the town, but their living quarters can be unbelievably gross.

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

Why is it that NT’s are allowed to be self-absorbed, even rewarded for specializing in whatever they’re good at. The men don’t do dishes or change diapers and nobody judges them. The women don’t ever open the hood on the family car or use the bar-b-que and it only reinforces their feminine qualities. But I always feel like I have to do everything. And when I fail to cook that steak perfectly or I just don’t want to change another diaper, suddenly I’m trouble. Doesn’t matter if I’m at work or home.

Is it just me? Did I create a bad situation for myself by always trying to help everyone and now they all just expect me to give more of myself?

Yes it is true
And I feel like it is because lots of autistics actually are empaths or have empath qualities
And no one is a doormat all the time and can do it all
And you can try to help someone receive no gratitude at all
And then they go on and do well and forget all about yourself
The lesson is never give too much
Because you will just be used and abused by self centered takers.
And not thanked or showed any gratitude.

 

[AspieChris]

The lesson is never give too much

I’m desperately trying to put that bit of advice into practice right now.

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

I’m desperately trying to put that bit of advice into practice right now.

Hope u can because u should never let anyone take advantage of you.