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Possibility of doing a games design course at Doncaster College

Mr Allen

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Topic.

Been to a meeting at the Autism Plus place on Bridge St, Sheffield this morning, one of the outcomes was the possibility of doing a games design course at Doncaster College, which is a 20 minute Train ride from Sheffield, England.

The lady from Autism Plus is waiting on an email from Doncaster College to see if I am eligible for the course with being older than the 19-24 criteria for the course, and also to see if they can secure funding for the course if I get on it.

I am perfectly willing to go out of Town to train if it improves my job prospects, I'm just concerned about the effect on my care arrangements.

I will find out at the meeting at Autism Plus which is booked for 1 PM next Friday.
 
Sorry to burst your bubble, because I know how it feels, when there is hope; we get so excited about it.

The thing is, that you do not fall into the right age group and from what I know about governments, they are pretty strict and even if they made a concession for you, it may not be funded, as you have gone through many such hopes, and they have all been dashed.

If I am wrong and you do get in and you are funded, wish you all the very best.
 
Well in recent years there's been a huge indie gaming boom. Many people are starting to appreciate game playability again over complex high spec fancy graphics and partly thanks to Steam it's never been a better time for small or single developers to market and sell their games since the 8 bit era in the 1980s. The Unreal Engine is making it a lot easier for small developers too with no upfront costs what-so-ever and low fees that are just 5% of sales revenue over $3,000 per quarter, so if you don't make over $3,000 per quarter you never pay a cent, while Unity has a free version that has been used in masses of commercial games.

You most certainly deserve a break, to do something that you enjoy and to ultimately end up in a decent job, no-one can say you haven't tried very hard and as I've said on a number of occasions, I have a lot of respect for you for this. If you get on this course you might end up writing some reasonable games yourself and with Steam helping more indie and single developers than ever market their games, you never know you might even make a reasonable income from this alone, but even if you don't, it's worth it if you've simply enjoyed it.

I wish you the best of luck as always, an opportunity is definitely overdue to come your way whether it's this one or another in the near future.


Note: It is difficult to optimise games with the free version of Unity so unless the game is a fairly simple 2D game, I would recommend using the Unreal Engine instead which a lot more indie developers have started using more recently and it's also in my opinion more powerful. Unfortunately I suspect many college courses won't have adapted to the Unreal Engine yet in what is a quickly changing environment and are probably still teaching Unity exclusively. That said once you can write well in Unity it's a massive head start even if you do change to a different engine and Unity isn't exactly dead.

PS: I got 2 games marketed in the late 1980s, but unfortunately I was a bit late in the market by the time I was 18 because games were becoming more complex and were starting to need a team of people, plus the market was becoming a lot more saturated, also they were written on a crumby school computer when I was in the 6th form, before I was 18 no-one would take me seriously despite sending stuff off from the age of 11, I'd get letters back from software houses telling me that what I'd done was impressive, but to come back to them when I'm older. I still made a nice bit of extra spending money when I finally reached 18 however, probably around £3,000 over a couple of years which was more back in those days, and I was only getting 20% in royalties which was common back then, these days developers get a lot more, but I'd definitely missed the big boat. David and Richard Darling (brothers who lived in the same city as myself) also started sending stuff off to software houses however, except they reached 18 a fair few years before I did which got them accepted when a single developer or in their case 2 could still make a huge difference, they worked for Mastertronic, gained lots of money and experience, then they founded a software house themselves called Codemasters, yes it's the same hugely successful Codemasters as today and I can't help but feel that I missed out because I was a few years too young. By the time I got to 18 they'd already made a fortune and it didn't matter to them that you needed teams of people to write new very successful computer games by then as they then had the money to employ them, it really bothered me to see them showing off in expensive sports cars on TV when I knew I had similar potential.
 
117 views and only 5 replies? Smh, just because Doncaster is not in North America or Canada.

Thanks to the 5 people who've responded though :)
 
I did a games course but for me turned out to be a waste even though its my hobby nowadays, probs cos the uni was one the top social ones in the country, or games jobs require alot of social interaction, contrary to what most people say about games careers saying they're great for aspies or socially awkward people and is the reason i failed uni.
 
I did a games course but for me turned out to be a waste even though its my hobby nowadays, probs cos the uni was one the top social ones in the country, or games jobs require alot of social interaction, contrary to what most people say about games careers saying they're great for aspies or socially awkward people and is the reason i failed uni.
If you have work in a team, then I agree and there's obvious interaction required and at University you will often be forced to work in groups, plus it's generally a social scene which isn't always the best for people on the autistic spectrum, I struggled many years ago when I attended higher education.

There is currently an indie gaming boom however where many more simple and very playable games are being appreciated again by a large amount of people over blockbuster mainstream releases that are obviously made by large teams with super high budgets, almost like a movie production. It's never been a better time for small indie developers and even single developers to make and sell games since the 8 bit era in the 1980s with Steam greatly helping to promote them, plus there's 2 gaming engines that a lot of indie developers are now using which are Unity (free version is available and is used in many commercial games, but it's difficult to optimise games) and the Unreal Engine which is become more popular of late (they charge 5% of sales over $3,000 per quarter which means it's free to get started, in my opinion it's more powerful).

Perhaps an online course or similar would have been more suitable that you could do at home at your own leisure? I know @Rich Allen is hoping to get on a college course soon, perhaps if this doesn't happen this could be considered instead, but ensure it's a proper recognised course.

Even as a single developer there's usually some interaction required, often you will need to interact with customers if they find bugs after it's released or sometimes games are released as "Early Access" which means an unfinished, but playable game is sold and developed over time with feedback from the users that effectively test it. This can however be done on feedback forums which is in my opinion much easier than real time face to face interaction.
 
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Having worked for a major software entertainment publisher some years ago in Silicon Valley, I must say that virtually everyone I noticed seemed to work on a collaborative basis to some degree. It was a lot like watching a movie being made.

While looking back I think a great deal of the office involved people on the spectrum, they still had to interact with one another as a routine part of their job. Including myself, as a web designer. Had to take instruction from the web producer and public relations directors in the marketing department, apart from deal in person with every game's producer who could drop in on me at any time. With occasional contact with the developers themselves. I think the only person who seemed to be the most autonomous from everyone else was the technical writer. The guy responsible for creating the instruction manual of every game. Even then, I suspect on occasion he had to go back and ask for clarification over various technical aspects of the products to make for an accurate manual.

I suspect about the only scenario where one might be employed for a firm where your contact with others is minimal might be associated with applications developed for smartphones. Even then, there are bound to be aspects of such a job that forces you to prompt questions or take orders from others. But when it comes to porting such products to PCs and console formats, odds are you will work in a development team rather than be any kind of "lone wolf". Where you are exposed to dealing directly with not only coworkers, but marketing personnel and executive producers at the publishing level depending on how autonomous or not your employer is as a software developer. The place I once worked at dealt with both independent developers as well as their own in-house developers and producers.

My point like the others above me is not to not expect to work entirely on an independent basis. The business just doesn't work that way in general. Hallelujah if you can find work to the contrary. But the reality in most cases is you'll still have to interact with others to some degree.

And if you are contemplating a solo career as an independent developer, essentially the same conditions still apply. Worse perhaps in that you not only have to sell your product, but you have to be able to sell yourself in the process. Something I discovered to my own horror when once contemplating working as an independent website designer. Where I thought I might sell my product exclusively based on the product alone, making up for my lack of social and marketing skills with prospective clients. I was wrong.
 
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Well I've just had to send an email to try and reschedule the meeting, due to attending a wrestling show Friday night in Grimsby, England at 7 PM, I don't really see the problem to be honest, I have another meeting in the morning which is at 10 AM, then I have to get home, have lunch and be at Bridge St before 1 PM, which isn't too far away from where I live.

I sent an email to see if we can reschedule for ideally Tuesday afternoon next week then Dad doesn't have to miss the Gym on Wednesday.

I might need to send another 2 emails to Emma and/or Katie to change the call to 12 PM on either day though, which wouldn't be a problem if either of them actually responded to email correspondence, they don't.
 
Well I've just had to send an email to try and reschedule the meeting, due to attending a wrestling show Friday night in Grimsby, England at 7 PM, I don't really see the problem to be honest, I have another meeting in the morning which is at 10 AM, then I have to get home, have lunch and be at Bridge St before 1 PM, which isn't too far away from where I live.

I sent an email to see if we can reschedule for ideally Tuesday afternoon next week then Dad doesn't have to miss the Gym on Wednesday.

I might need to send another 2 emails to Emma and/or Katie to change the call to 12 PM on either day though, which wouldn't be a problem if either of them actually responded to email correspondence, they don't.
Perhaps you could see about getting a job as a wrestler instead, just throw yourself in the ring and show them what you can do lol!

Seriously I wish you the best of luck!
 
Perhaps you could see about getting a job as a wrestler instead, just throw yourself in the ring and show them what you can do lol!

Seriously I wish you the best of luck!

I did actually enquire about that last month (see my topic in the obsessions and interests section) about wrestling training, but I can't do it, I'm too disabled with mobility issues and back problems.
 
I did actually enquire about that last month (see my topic in the obsessions and interests section) about wrestling training, but I can't do it, I'm too disabled with mobility issues and back problems.
Wow I was actually joking, I didn't expect to find out that you really had looked into wrestling lol! Is there any job you wouldn't try? You certainly have determination and dedication and your time must be coming soon.
 
I have a meeting down at Autism Plus on Monday next week at 14.00 to discuss the possibility of the course in Doncaster etc.

@pjcnet there are several jobs I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot bargepole actually, including Estate Agent, Car sales, clothes shop assistant, Charity shop assistant (been there done that and literally worn the T shirt in some cases) and various others.
 
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Wait, wait, wait: There's an AGE CRITERIA for gaming-centric courses? As in, a maximum age? And an age range that's only about 5 years?

I'll be honest here: Were it me, I would have dumped the idea the INSTANT I heard that. Why? Because suddenly, I'd know it was a place where I'd be unlikely to learn anything of actual use. Which is usually the case, when the place is run by morons.

But there's another aspect here: Even if this does work out and you get the classes, or if you find another way in, you need to be aware of what you're ACTUALLY dealing with here in terms of a development job.

Your first option is to work for a developer that ends up with one of the big publishers. Expect this to basically be hell. Unreasonable hours (80-100 a week isnt uncommon) and expectations (many of which your entire team will LITERALLY be unable to fulfill, because you literally wont be given enough time. The corporate dolts in charge couldnt care less... they just want the money. (Ever wonder why so many games come out feeling unfinished and buggy as all hell? THAT is why). Your designs will also be corrupted by them (dont want to screw over your playerbase with microtransactions? Well, bloody tough. You'll do it anyway, because you dont get a choice). Of course... that's if you even get a chance to do any design. Expect a low-level job for quite awhile, with lots and lots of unpleasant grunt work. These are HUGE teams, also. There's ALOT to keep track of. If you like being overloaded mentally, this is your route to go.

If you choose to make games that are entirely your own (or perhaps create a group of people you know), you get the hilarious fun of trying to jump into the utter bloody mess that is the indie market. You'll spend an incredible amount of time making a game (and you wont get paid for that, not until the game sells), only to throw it out into an extremely oversaturated market where you'd have to get INCREDIBLY lucky to even get it noticed... no matter how good it is. Been there, done that. Believe me, it's not fun. Now, there is an advantage to this one: You make the game on YOUR time, not on some corporate group's schedule. And you make the game YOU want to make.... not something dictated by uncaring higher-ups. But the market has outright exploded, as more and more gamers get fed up with AAA games and the huge publishers. So many games now release DAILY that it's impossible to follow them. Most will reach only a niche community. Some wont reach any.

And then there's the work itself. Programming is what most people seem to associate with game design. And it's a hard task. If you dont already know anything about programming now, you might want to try to learn some on your own before committing both time AND money to any sort of college course. Because it'd suck to pay for that (or use up lots of time for the often bloody slow classes) only to find out that you hate doing it. Programming is *difficult*. The more advanced the game you're trying to make, the more ridiculous it's going to get. Even small, 2D indie games require an incredible amount of time and effort to make. Most full developers are going into this with at least a couple of years of programming experience. Expect there to be LOTS of math, LOTS of complex logic, and so on.

There are of course other jobs associated with making a game, such as art and music and whatever, but of course, you need to be very proficient in those to get anywhere.

And for someone with autism, you need to be aware that yes: You WILL be required to deal with people on a constant basis. And yes, this ABSOLUTELY still applies even if you're making one yourself. There is no avoiding this. The bigger the team you have though, the more communication you will need.

I'll put it this way. For the indie team I contracted to, there was originally about 12 people on the dev team for the game being worked on. Not a huge team. However, each day during the main development period, I would wake up to anywhere from 40-80 seperate (and often long) emails. This all just being communication about things needed to continue work, and make decisions. And I dont have a small role in the project, either. I was immediately put in a position of authority, with the ability to make decisions on stuff, and veto the decisions of others. The content that I personally created didnt need to be approved by anyone other than myself (I think the head developer only ONCE asked me to make a change on something). So my position was more isolated than usual (expect this to NOT be the case. The circumstances behind my contract were extremely unusual). Yet still, the need to interact with others was CONSTANT. If your role has more dependancy on others... and if it requires you to get approval for things, or be told what to do... the amount of interaction goes up further.

Fast forward about a year. A team consisting of me and just 5 others made an expansion for that same game (the core dev team effectively split, as they had a second project that needed working on). I still tended to wake up to 40 blasted emails every day.

AND. That's WITHOUT taking into account the community. There was also constant interaction with players & testers, which are often the same thing. They would submit bug reports (so many), suggestions, complain about stuff, ask a bazillion questions, and this just adds to the chaos. Now, if you're with a big developer, you are very unlikely to have to deal with this part.... because you'll already be dealing with the lunacy of a gigantic dev team. But if you go the indie route, this *will* be required of you. And believe me, it gets frustrating. No matter how much of an asshat someone is being to you, you either respond with pure kindness, politeness, and friendliness, or you can watch your playerbase go down the drain. I fortunately already knew and had mastered this aspect LONG before this project.


If you're wondering where all this comes from, it's because I've been involved in this crap for.... longer than I really want to think of. I wont go into the details... they are long. Very long. I have literally nothing but free time, all the time, and gaming and game design are my main special interests, so I've had ALOT of time to learn about and experience things related to this industry. Which escalated as I kept meeting more people involved in it, and helping with various aspects of design.

And again, I am not doing these things because I have to. There's no true pressure on me. I dont actually NEED a job, which is a very rare position to be in. On top of that, I got EXTREMELY lucky with the dev I contracted to in that it was someone who could understand my autistic difficulties. You know as well as I do that this is usually not the case. I was (and still am) able to make my own hours in the main project. Stuff gets done when I bloody well feel like doing it. This is usually the direct opposite of the case for most devs.

If you do this as a true job/career though, none of those things will be true. it's going to be hard, believe me. It's going to eat incredible amounts of time and produce lots of stress.

That all being said.... if you can really pull it off, in either route.... it can be so freaking satisfying. The first time I watched players, on stream, do battle with MY creations and content was just amazing. Could hardly believe it was really happening. And what's more, in the position I'm in, I could shape the game into the game *I* wanted it to be (indie route only, though, that one). I think these are the true reasons why alot of people try to jump into the lunacy of this industry. That second one is the tough one though. On a huge team you're unlikely to do that part.

But yeah, it's bloody harsh. You could go into it, spend LOTS of time and money, and come away with nothing. It happens, alot. Or go in and be worked to the bone by corporate overlords.... and thrown under the bus for any screwup, even if it's THEIR screwup. It happens, alot.


Sorry, this is very wordy, but again, I've had ALOT of time dealing with this crap by now. And I dont believe in sugarcoating things like this or withholding info. Either people will read the bloody thing or they wont... it's not my problem either way. I type stupidly fast, so even a long post like this doesnt take me long to write.

And keep in mind: I didnt even talk about the actual college experience here (yes, I went to college). That... that's a whole other beehive, really.
 
If you choose to make games that are entirely your own (or perhaps create a group of people you know), you get the hilarious fun of trying to jump into the utter bloody mess that is the indie market. You'll spend an incredible amount of time making a game (and you wont get paid for that, not until the game sells), only to throw it out into an extremely oversaturated market where you'd have to get INCREDIBLY lucky to even get it noticed... no matter how good it is. Been there, done that. Believe me, it's not fun. Now, there is an advantage to this one: You make the game on YOUR time, not on some corporate group's schedule. And you make the game YOU want to make.... not something dictated by uncaring higher-ups. But the market has outright exploded, as more and more gamers get fed up with AAA games and the huge publishers. So many games now release DAILY that it's impossible to follow them. Most will reach only a niche community. Some wont reach any.
Whether it's worth it or not comes down to whether or not you enjoy it, because if you do it's not really work and if you make money it's a bonus. I made a few games in the 1980s that sold a little and personally I had great fun making them, in fact I absolutely loved it, but sadly I reached 18 years old a bit too late to make a lot of money on my own because AAA games were starting to be made by larger teams in the latter part of the decade. There is now some opportunity again for single developers or small teams with Steam making it easier than ever to publicise and sell indie games and a lot of people are appreciating simpler and more playable games again, but I agree the market is saturated. Back in my day there was no Internet however so you had to totally rely on a software publishing company to be interested and then agree to publish your games at their up front expense on the gamble that they'd sell enough copies to make a profit back, because of this gamble they were very fussy as to what they'd accept and I even had to modify my games to their specification in order to get them finally accepted. I only got a measly 20% in royalties which was drawn up in a formal contract and you had the choice of take it or get nothing because there was no effective way to publish a game on your own in those days. That said if your game was good enough I suppose there's nothing stopping you from sending it off to indie games publishers that are fairly well known even today, if they did accept it you'd lose a lot of money in royalties, but having a known name publishing your game is bound to greatly increase sales compared to if you got the green light to sell it on Steam and sold it in your own totally unknown name.

PS: Before I was 18 no software company would touch me, I started sending games off in the very early 1980s at 11 years old and I got nothing but letters back saying how impressed they were, but come back when you're 18 years old, but as I said earlier, by then I'd missed the opportunity to make a lot of money alone.
 
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Whether it's worth it or not comes down to whether or not you enjoy it, because if you do it's not really work and if you make money it's a bonus. I made a few games in the 1980s that sold a little and personally I had great fun making them, in fact I absolutely loved it, but sadly I reached 18 years old a bit too late to make a lot of money on my own because AAA games were starting to be made by larger teams in the latter part of the decade. There is now some opportunity again for single developers or small teams with Steam making it easier than ever to publicise and sell indie games and a lot of people are appreciating simpler and more playable games again, but I agree the market is saturated. Back in my day there was no Internet however so you had to totally rely on a software publishing company to be interested and then agree to publish your games at their up front expense on the gamble that they'd sell enough copies to make a profit back, because of this gamble they were very fussy as to what they'd accept and I even had to modify my games to their specification in order to get them finally accepted. I only got a measly 20% in royalties which was drawn up in a formal contract and you had the choice of take it or get nothing because there was no effective way to publish a game on your own in those days. That said if your game was good enough I suppose there's nothing stopping you from sending it off to indie games publishers that are fairly well known even today, if they did accept it you'd lose a lot of money in royalties, but having a known name publishing your game is bound to greatly increase sales compared to if you got the green light to sell it on Steam and sold it in your own totally unknown name.

PS: Before I was 18 no software company would touch me, I started sending games off in the very early 1980s at 11 years old and I got nothing but letters back saying how impressed they were, but come back when you're 18 years old, but as I said earlier, by then I'd missed the opportunity to make a lot of money alone.

In England, I did a work placement at a Software company in Rotherham from school in June 1990 aged 14, I didn't do much developing, just played Amiga and Atari ST games, although I did help test the 2 player mode on Jahangir Khan's Squash, which was their latest title at the time, and I thrashed the programmer.
 

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