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Nope, l refuse to engage in your childhood patterns.

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
So l truly think arguing is horrible in relationships. You started the downward spiral of the demise of your connection.

We are civilized adults, we can discuss our differences and try to find a middle ground because relationships are about learning and understanding each other. If we both feel heard, then a meeting of common interests is possible.

So l refuse to argue. What are your experiences in handling conflict in your relationships?
 

Stuttermabolur

A psychologist said so
V.I.P Member
What are your experiences in handling conflict in your relationships?
I did my very best to avoid them. I am very conflict avoidant by nature, and getting into any sort of conflict and argument carries a double edge as if it's something I care about or am passionate about, it hurts to not speak my mind or try to correct someone, but on the other hand, speaking up can also be damaging for the relationship and always left me feeling worse off, especially as I'm pretty terrible when it comes to arguments and would always fold in the end or come across as weak. I also avoid them as best I can in my friendships for the same reason.
 

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
I did my very best to avoid them. I am very conflict avoidant by nature, and getting into any sort of conflict and argument carries a double edge as if it's something I care about or am passionate about, it hurts to not speak my mind or try to correct someone, but on the other hand, speaking up can also be damaging for the relationship and always left me feeling worse off, especially as I'm pretty terrible when it comes to arguments and would always fold in the end or come across as weak. I also avoid them as best I can in my friendships for the same reason.

By talking thru conflict is an important part of growing as a couple. I have been frightened to discuss anything with said individual because they came from a very painful childhood experience with non-stop fighting everyday of their life. So l walked around on eggshells for a couple of years.

But at some point, they tried to engage me in those dynamics. I said nope, l refuse that role. I like you too much. I chose not to argue. So l didn 't give them their fix of arguing. So sadly there is unspoken tension now. It's hard.

They got comfortable, then they wanted to relive that """perceived normal""". They are emeshed in those childhood dynamics. I hate arguing. I have the opposite feeling, l will talk thru and try to work things out. I actually was a mediator for a state lawyer bar association and excelled at helping attorneys and clients find a common ground.
 
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Alexej

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
My experience is mixed.

I will often talk the passive aggressive stance and say nothing.
However, this is not a good policy in the long run, but I find that so often when we talk I am blind-sided by arguments that seem to come from nowhere.

Sometimes I need time to work out what is going on inside, and by then things have moved on and it is not right to go back to what I have worked out.

To refuse to argue is good - nobody likes an argument. However, leaving things unresolved is not good either. I am very good at not addressing this one and will often ignore the issue (not helpful).
 

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
I like to say what is your take on this subject? Okay, here is my take. Okay, where should we go with this as a unified front? There is always a opinion that may not concide with your own. However, to push all your opinions on someone is more of a control issue. A healthier way to go is to say, okay- you make decisions regarding the restaurant tonite, and l decide when l want to leave. Like a healthy toss up. I don't think being controlling allows healthy spontaneous fun together because you are so wrapped up in the details. It's like jumping in bed and saying l only want this position, and the other says okay but only with Halloween music playing. You have to allow for some play without the control issues. Obviously l am trying to be funny but l think this points out how controlling behavior puts a damper on just a simple date nite.

If somebody says l need to be in control of these decisions, l would say okay. No problem. But is there something that you are okay with letting me decide on? Like a vacation spot or whatever. A healthy relationship is a give and take, where couples function as adults and not sniveling little four year-olds running around arguing.

Then l feel there is more synchronized effort as functioning as a unit. I had one guy tell me love is a battleground (Pat Bentar?) , but l was able to show him otherwise.
 
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Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
So l truly think arguing is horrible in relationships. You started the downward spiral of the demise of your connection.

We are civilized adults, we can discuss our differences and try to find a middle ground because relationships are about learning and understanding each other. If we both feel heard, then a meeting of common interests is possible.

So l refuse to argue. What are your experiences in handling conflict in your relationships?
Within the context of a relationship, arguments should always be avoided. The difference between an argument and a discussion in this context is the introduction of emotion,...then it ceases to be an intelligent, logical discussion,...and goes down the road of emotions, irrationality, implicit bias, and cognitive thinking errors. At the very least, arguments cause emotional harm, psychological harm,...and worse, physical harm and death. Furthermore, the conflict,...whatever it was,...does not get resolved. So, logically,...why engage?

As soon as emotions are introduced to the social interaction,...I am out. You can poke and prod me into the interaction, but I refuse. I know myself enough to know that I have a very difficult time communicating and having the ability to access my logical thinking once emotions are introduced. Furthermore, I know myself enough that if you keep at me,...I will retaliate,...and I will respond with physical violence,...and I am a big, strong, capable person.

My wife and I have been with each other for the better part of 38 years,...36 years married. We have discussions. We can disagree. We can compromise. We can have intelligent interactions. THAT did not come naturally. I learned,...we both learned,...that remaining unemotional kept our minds sharp,...we could slow down the interaction to allow us to collect our thoughts before making our points. I am not sure how all of this came about,...perhaps working with the public in healthcare,...interacting with people at their worst. Perhaps working with a group of people that must learn to shut off their emotions and do what they are trained in the most stressful, life-on-the-line situations. Later, after my diagnosis,...learning about the autistic condition and what that means in these situations,...and more recently, having taken a course in "system 1" vs "system 2" thinking,...it is all becoming clearer to me. Don't argue,...period.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
People often argue because they're unable to have a discussion due to the emotions they are experiencing. When one person is too upset or too angry to think rationally, a discussion becomes impossible.

I think the best way to prevent arguments is for people to learn how to regulate their emotions. Most people learn this from their parents when they were a child but people whose parents didn't teach them or didn't discipline them enough will often have difficulty with emotional regulation and be emotionally immature because of it.

Not teaching children how to regulate their emotions (which often occurs because parents don't understand emotions well enough to teach their children) is considered emotional neglect. Fortunately, there are good books on childhood emotional neglect and emotional intelligence that can teach people to be more mature and regulate their emotions better which will help prevent arguments and lead to better relationships.
 

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
And these are great points. If both ride the emotional roller coaster, then stop, let's say to each other, maybe discuss later when the emotions of prior enmeshed responses due to severe childhood trauma of parents arguing from dawn to late pm have passed and you feel less triggered. I just get passionate and think why am l being attacked? So emotions are critical in relationships. Being able to say, l am triggered right now, let me hit the gym, and l will discuss this when l give permission to discuss it.

Communication is so vital in healthy relationships. I try hard to practice this with my friends. Am l being a active positive contributer to this conversation when they have bared their soul to me and are trying to find answers to how they feel? I am learning. I am getting better. Lol
 

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
I really don't want to argue. My father was a yelling screaming machine. I hated it. It affected me. So as a coping mechanism, l am always repairing conflict driven issues. I am always looking for the common ground even in my sleep. Just want to get along. So to others, l come across as a people pleaser, fake happiness, whatever, but l acknowledge that l am driven to solve whatever is put in front of me.

He used arguments to excert dominance and control over my mother. That really bothered me and made me feel relationships are horrible and turn into slugfests with little else. I am actually pretty quick to evaluate people in regards to controlling behaviors. Also have discovered that many families suffer these types of emotional abuse patterns be it one or both parents.
 
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Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
I just get passionate and think why am l being attacked? So emotions are critical in relationships.
Emotions ARE critical in a relationship,...but understand the context. Some emotions are destructive,...and others build relationships.

A natural response to being attacked is that flight-or-fight reaction,...that's instinctual. Those that consciously or unconsciously understand how to manipulate someone into that interaction,...that smacks of psycho-sociopathic behavior. They know how to "trigger" or "push your buttons". If you are submissive in those interactions,...be prepared for mental and physical abuse,...the other person asserting dominance over you. If you are aggressive in those interactions,...be prepared for the other person to put up a fight,...and depending upon how much psycho-sociopathy this person has, it rarely ends well.
 

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
Sometimes in relationships, people feel triggered, and it's painful to get thru the dark tunnel and feel okay. It's like whoa, l am going thru total darkness, and l don't mean to pull you down. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and not label them.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
I read an article that said couples who occasionally argue have a better relationship than couples who never argue. Venting emotions through arguments is better for your relationship and mental health than keeping everything inside until you explode or have a meltdown because you can't take it anymore which can make your partner afraid of you or think you're emotionally disturbed. Occasional arguments also help your partner know how you feel and give them a chance to comfort you or make changes that will improve your relationship.
 

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
Yes, but l also think you can discuss not argue. Choice of words. Argue to me means there is only your outcome. Discussion means you help me to understand your idea and bring me closer to you. You may decide to look at it from my perspective. Then we both understand each other. And respect each other.
 

Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Argue to me means there is only your outcome. Discussion means you help me to understand your idea and bring me closer to you. You may decide to look at it from my perspective. Then we both understand each other. And respect each other.
To argue often implies a power struggle,..."I am right,...you are wrong." "I am going to give you my perspective,...shove it down your throat,...and yours is irrelevant." It's one of many reasons why arguments are emotionally charged, irrational, illogical, psychologically damaging,...and destructive.
 

Atrapa Almas

70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN
V.I.P Member
Its a difficult topic, I would say that varies a lot. Its not the same to argue with a psicopath, with a triggered person that had some traumatic experience or with a "normalistic". Its not the same when I am in deffensive mode or when the other person feel ofended by me. They are all called argues, but they are very different.

I agree that discussing with an abusive manipulative person (lets call it psicopath even knowing not all of them behave like that) has no use. But that is not usually what happens, our couples may be angry or aparently irrational at times, but that is not to ignore them or refuse to acknowledge their anger or their emotions.

I dont think that emotions are a problem or that logic is the way to handle a discussion. Just because I have problems being aware of my emotions dont imply that they are not usefull or important. To me they are more important than logic in an argument.

Is my wife angry? We probably need to work out a limit or to change something that is hurting her. She may need some rest? She may need to vent? Have I done something that she understands as a lack of respect? Which is her un-attended need?

Has she some "irrational" fear? Lets hear that fear, lets see if we can do things differently so her fear feels attended? May we change the activity? May we introduce some extra safety?

Emotions serve a purpose. A person who have fear to walk in the nigth may not find usefull my cold logic but my acceptance and respect to their fears. Just an example.

I dont like the middle ground thing either. A bully may take my things and then the teacher comes and told me "Hey, we must share". No, thanks. My limits are mine, and I dont feel forced to blend them to accomodate any middle ground. I am not in a relation to be less that I would be alone. The middle ground thing sounds (to me) very much like : Lets cut our wings equally. I will cut your wings in exchange of letting you cut my wings so we can be equally disminished.

Listening to the other person helps me, its important to me to understand their needs or desires. Then I must listen to myself, what are my needs and desires. Learning lo listen and understand the other person from their truths has been difficult for me, to accept their emotions and needs even if they would be stupid emotions and needs from my truth. Not to juzge them. That has been difficult, but so helpfull. I took training for that.

Normalism is another problem for me. If my wife ask me something that to my context is normal (fix that electric appliance) I could think that its my duty to do so. In my normality men do those house repairs. If she ask me to wash the dishes, wich may be easier and faster, it may be against my normality context. And I must be also ready to see that some of my needs and desires are out of her "normality" context.

Society have many normality unwritten rules, we may consider them, but at the end, we need to build our own family normality from our own needs, fears, limits, illusions... And if those are not compatible, we may be also ready to stop the relation.

Its not a duty, relations are not a must, are not a chain to slave and be slaved. They may not work. That is something important. Som people destroy themselves to keep alive a toxic relation. Relations are about love.

Sorry for the wall of text.
 

Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
I dont think that emotions are a problem or that logic is the way to handle a discussion. Just because I have problems being aware of my emotions dont imply that they are not usefull or important. To me they are more important than logic in an argument.
Interesting. All I can respond to this is from my life perspective and limited education on the topic. Personally, emotions are almost always a problem within the context of a verbal conflict,...for someone like me where emotions almost immediately shut off my logic centers, I don't modulate them well, I cannot complete a verbal thought, it exposes my implicit biases, creates errors in thinking, I begin to curse, and say a lot of really stupid things,...basically, my IQ plummets and the outcome is never good. Ultimately, if there is an outcome, I will be on the "loosing" end of it, be regretful, and have to deal with the destructive psychological effects. For me,...logic is the only way to handle a discussion. If you want to come at me with an emotional conflict,...I will stop you right then and there,...and I will tell you, "We are not having this interaction right now." If you get angry and want to push me,...keep in mind,...this bull has horns. I am no passivist,...and things will get destructive.
 

Atrapa Almas

70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN
V.I.P Member
Interesting. All I can respond to this is from my life perspective and limited education on the topic. Personally, emotions are almost always a problem within the context of a verbal conflict,...for someone like me where emotions almost immediately shut off my logic centers, I don't modulate them well, I cannot complete a verbal thought, it exposes my implicit biases, creates errors in thinking, I begin to curse, and say a lot of really stupid things,...basically, my IQ plummets and the outcome is never good. Ultimately, if there is an outcome, I will be on the "loosing" end of it, be regretful, and have to deal with the destructive psychological effects. For me,...logic is the only way to handle a discussion. If you want to come at me with an emotional conflict,...I will stop you right then and there,...and I will tell you, "We are not having this interaction right now." If you get angry and want to push me,...keep in mind,...this bull has horns. I am no passivist,...and things will get destructive.
Seems like you have constructed a general truth from your personal truth.

We all do that to some extent, but if your personal truth of "emotions are a problem for me" is very different to others, then your general idea on the subjet may be wrong or not be usefull.

Usually rage does disable logic, but anger does not to that extent.

A phobia disabled logic too, but fear does not to that extent.

Same with depression and sadness.

That "any" degree of the emotion disables your logic sounds more like you percieve the emotion when its already about out of controll. If it was true that a lower level of the emotion disables your logic you would have a very distinctive brain, that may also be the case.

Im sure that you know more than me about that subjet.
 

Neonatal RRT

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Seems like you have constructed a general truth from your personal truth.

We all do that to some extent, but if your personal truth of "emotions are a problem for me" is very different to others, then your general idea on the subjet may be wrong or not be usefull.

Usually rage does disable logic, but anger does not to that extent.

A phobia disabled logic too, but fear does not to that extent.

Same with depression and sadness.

That "any" degree of the emotion disables your logic sounds more like you percieve the emotion when its already about out of controll. If it was true that a lower level of the emotion disables your logic you would have a very distinctive brain, that may also be the case.

Im sure that you know more than me about that subject.
I am not the only one who understands this concept of how emotions can alter logical thinking,...so I think this is less "my personal truth" and more of a "general truth", as this is demonstrated in the psychological literature. That said, I also believe you make some valid points, which the literature also suggests,...but again,...I am trying to keep things within the context and perspective of an "argument vs discussion",...and not something else that may confuse the issue.



https://www.humintell.com/2009/08/do-emotions-affect-critical-thinking/
 

Aspychata

Serenity waves, beachy vibes
V.I.P Member
Its a difficult topic, I would say that varies a lot. Its not the same to argue with a psicopath, with a triggered person that had some traumatic experience or with a "normalistic". Its not the same when I am in deffensive mode or when the other person feel ofended by me. They are all called argues, but they are very different.

I agree that discussing with an abusive manipulative person (lets call it psicopath even knowing not all of them behave like that) has no use. But that is not usually what happens, our couples may be angry or aparently irrational at times, but that is not to ignore them or refuse to acknowledge their anger or their emotions.

I dont think that emotions are a problem or that logic is the way to handle a discussion. Just because I have problems being aware of my emotions dont imply that they are not usefull or important. To me they are more important than logic in an argument.

Is my wife angry? We probably need to work out a limit or to change something that is hurting her. She may need some rest? She may need to vent? Have I done something that she understands as a lack of respect? Which is her un-attended need?

Has she some "irrational" fear? Lets hear that fear, lets see if we can do things differently so her fear feels attended? May we change the activity? May we introduce some extra safety?

Emotions serve a purpose. A person who have fear to walk in the nigth may not find usefull my cold logic but my acceptance and respect to their fears. Just an example.

I dont like the middle ground thing either. A bully may take my things and then the teacher comes and told me "Hey, we must share". No, thanks. My limits are mine, and I dont feel forced to blend them to accomodate any middle ground. I am not in a relation to be less that I would be alone. The middle ground thing sounds (to me) very much like : Lets cut our wings equally. I will cut your wings in exchange of letting you cut my wings so we can be equally disminished.

Listening to the other person helps me, its important to me to understand their needs or desires. Then I must listen to myself, what are my needs and desires. Learning lo listen and understand the other person from their truths has been difficult for me, to accept their emotions and needs even if they would be stupid emotions and needs from my truth. Not to juzge them. That has been difficult, but so helpfull. I took training for that.

Normalism is another problem for me. If my wife ask me something that to my context is normal (fix that electric appliance) I could think that its my duty to do so. In my normality men do those house repairs. If she ask me to wash the dishes, wich may be easier and faster, it may be against my normality context. And I must be also ready to see that some of my needs and desires are out of her "normality" context.

Society have many normality unwritten rules, we may consider them, but at the end, we need to build our own family normality from our own needs, fears, limits, illusions... And if those are not compatible, we may be also ready to stop the relation.

Its not a duty, relations are not a must, are not a chain to slave and be slaved. They may not work. That is something important. Som people destroy themselves to keep alive a toxic relation. Relations are about love.

Sorry for the wall of text.
I think we should say equally empowered not equally diminished. You are only implying loss. Meeting at a middle ground suggests you are both working and achieving a happy place where control isn't the issue. If you say we are cutting each others wings, you are telling the basis of your relationship IS control. Because the journey is more important then who won. If your wife isn't around, you only have yourself to fight with. Often times l agree with person l am with, and we met at the middle ground with no effort. A selfish person will only want his way, a mature person wants a win win for both of the involved people. Maybe this the deciding factor in relationships. Is one person in control? Do two people work together? The relationships that are doomed from the get-go, are the ones that fight 24/7 over control in every area of the relationship. There has to be a understanding of what will decided by each partner in a healthy relationship.

Control issues are some type of inadequacy or injustice or distrust or all of the above. So l really try to trust, and work hard at not be controlling in relationships. So l ask the person what do you think about this. I have to be careful with my tone of voice and not use emotionally triggered words. Like be politically correct, it can be a hassle. Sure l want to scream wtf, why not this way? But if this person is kind enough to include me in their lifetime, l guess that isn't too much to ask of me?
 
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Atrapa Almas

70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN
V.I.P Member
I think we should say equally empowered not equally diminished. You are only implying loss. Meeting at a middle ground suggests you are both working and achieving a happy place where control isn't the issue. If you say we are cutting each others wings, you are telling the basis of your relationship IS control. Because the journey is more important then who won. If your wife isn't around, you only have yourself to fight with. Often times l agree with person l am with, and we met at the middle ground with no effort. A selfish person will only want his way, a mature person wants a win win for both of the involved people. Maybe this the deciding factor in relationships. Is one person in control? Do two people work together? The relationships that are doomed from the get-go, are the ones that fight 24/7 over control in every area of the relationship. There has to be a understanding of what will decided by each partner in a healthy relationship.
Yes, the "middle ground" expression, means a "loss, loss" for me. In a "win, win" situation I never use "middle ground". Maybe its a misunderstanding on my part.
 

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