Memory and sense of self in individuals with autism

[Ylva]

First off, I do not have a "weak sense of self". What I do have a weak sense of is others. Neurotypicals struggle to make themselves clear, they use sentences that don't mean anything specific, and when you don't get what they mean they get aggressive, so what autistic in their right mind wouldn't learn to hide who they are and agree as much as possible from an early age.

Also, I think most of those people with perfect autobiographical memory are autistic, and it doesn't make them not autistic either.

 

[Fino]

First off, I do not have a "weak sense of self". What I do have a weak sense of is others. Neurotypicals struggle to make themselves clear, they use sentences that don't mean anything specific, and when you don't get what they mean they get aggressive, so what autistic in their right mind wouldn't learn to hide who they are and agree as much as possible from an early age.

Also, I think most of those people with perfect autobiographical memory are autistic, and it doesn't make them not autistic either.

I had too many issues with it to begin so thank you for articulating some of them!

 

[VioletAudio]

I mainly remember the bad or traumatic times from my youth but not much beyond that. I pretty much have a small fraction of my past memory. Mostly just of the negative times. If I do have a memory about half the time it it just the story of what happened that I was told after the fact by someone else and not my perspective at all. It's interesting and annoying.

 

[Mia]

This means that while women with autism can recall the past, they may not be using their experience to help them understand themselves and solve personal problems.

I recall the past vividly. Remember the emotions involved accurately. It's helped me to comprehend others and their actions. Has it contributed to an understanding of self? Yes, yet not in the proscribed time frame that scientists seem to expect. It's taken me longer to access these memories together in a coherent fashion.

When scientists study autistic people, them seem to stop shortly before understanding completely who we are. They find parts, because every person with autism has varying influences. I don't think we can be classified, there is no formula.

 

[Mia]

First off, I do not have a "weak sense of self".

Neither do I. That's why I found it surprising that they would come to these conclusions.

 

[the_tortoise]

Neither do I. That's why I found it surprising that they would come to these conclusions.

It's long been part of the Theory of Mind explanations for autism -- the idea that autistics don't have a sense of self.

So I was not surprised. Just irritated by the continuing assumptions.

 

[Mia]

So I was not surprised. Just irritated by the continuing assumptions.

Was surprised because I assumed that by now, science would have evolved in it's study of autism. Without relying on the inaccuracies and assumptions of the past.

 

[the_tortoise]

Was surprised because I assumed that by now, science would have evolved in it's study of autism. Without relying on the inaccuracies and assumptions of the past.

That makes sense.

 

[Gracey]

Neither do I. That's why I found it surprising that they would come to these conclusions.

Concerning the weak sense of self,

I’m understanding ‘sense of self’ to mean being able to see yourself as the same person throughout the past and in the present,

I’m always open to learning though,
so if anyone has a different definition I’d be more than interested to read it


I’d suggest we need to interact with others to obtain a sense of identity,
who we are and where we fit in.

If; generally speaking, we live life on the periphery of groups,
We may not have a similar emotional experience (as non ASD) of being in the group,
- ( I’m thinking of school here)

We would still develop our own understanding of who we are and where we fit in but it won’t be a similar experience to the majority of the group.

I’m still thinking of school here,

I’m guessing we’re going to experience the same things / incidents in a different way to non asd?

A fight in the school yard for example,
Our first reaction may be to go get a teacher to stop it,
The majority of the group may be forming a ring around the opponents chanting “fight, fight, fight” and baying for blood ?

We might not remember that fight in the school yard years later, or if we do it might be just a few vague details,

Those that were at a high level of arousal, chanting and eagerly encouraging the opponents will easily remember much more detail.

 

[Mia]

I’m understanding ‘sense of self’ to mean being able to see yourself as the same person throughout the past and in the present,

And yet, 'sense of self' has various building blocks/definitions in psychology, some of which may be the basis for this study of autism and it's proposed theory.

For example Kohut's or Bern's or in this case I'm thinking of Winnicott's, which appeals to me personally:

Donald Winnicott distinguished what he called the "true self" from the "false self" in the human personality, considering the true self as one based on the individual's sense of being, not doing, something which was rooted in the experiencing body.[7] As he memorably put it to Harry Guntrip, 'You know about "being active", but not about "just growing, just breathing"':[8] it was the latter qualities that went to form the true self.

Nevertheless, Winnicott did not undervalue the role of the false self in the human personality, regarding it in fact as a necessary form of defensive organization – a kind of caretaker, a survival suit behind the protection of which the true self was able to continue to exist.[9] Five levels of false self organization were identified by Winnicott, running along a kind of continuum.[10]

1. In the most severe instance, the false self completely replaces and ousts the true self, leaving the latter a mere possibility.[11]
2. Less severely, the false self protects the true self, which remains unactualised - for Winnicott a clear example of a clinical condition organised for the positive goal of preserving the individual in spite of abnormal environmental conditions of the environment.
3. Closer to health, the false self supports the individual's search for conditions that will allow the true self to recover its well-being - its own identity.
4. Even closer to health, we find the false self "... established on the basis of identifications".[12]
5. Finally, in a healthy person, the false self is composed of that which facilitates social behavior, the manners and courtesy that allows for a smooth social life, with emotions expressed in socially acceptable forms.[10]

As for the true self, Winnicott linked it both to playing, and to a kind of "hide and seek"' designed to protect creative ownership of one's real self against exploitation,[13] without entirely forfeiting the ability to relate to others.

And of course there is Jung's: The Self signifies the coherent whole, unifying both the consciousness and unconscious mind of a person. The Self, according to Jung, is the most important and difficult archetype to understand.[19] It is realized as the product of individuation, which is defined as the process of integrating one's personality.[20]

Psychology of self - Wikipedia

We read these studies and papers with their theories and yet there is so much background work involved in understanding the postulations. That it's difficult to understand completely.

 

[Gracey]

Thanks @Mia,

I like Winnicott’s false self thought of as a necessary defensive organisation.
“...behind the protection of which the true self could continue to exist.”

Puts me in mind of mimicry.

I’m not all that familiar with Carl Jung’s theories,
Certainly food for thought.
Thanks for your time

 

[RosaViolet]

From what I can tell from one of the base study references for this paper. It seems as if we are supposed to quickly remember things, in keeping with normal parameters. In essence we are not fast enough as other people without autism. This is not a surprise, I need more time, rather than a base reaction on the spot.

"Autobiographical memory and social problem-solving in Asperger syndrome.
Goddard L1, Howlin P, Dritschel B, Patel T.
Abstract
Difficulties in social interaction are a central feature of Asperger syndrome. Effective social interaction involves the ability to solve interpersonal problems as and when they occur. Here we examined social problem-solving in a group of adults with Asperger syndrome and control group matched for age, gender and IQ. We also assessed autobiographical memory, on a cueing task and during social problem-solving, and examined the relationship between access to specific past experiences and social problem-solving ability. Results demonstrated a social problem-solving impairment in the Asperger group. Their solutions were less detailed, less effective and less extended in time. Autobiographical memory performance was also impaired with significantly longer latencies to retrieve specific memories and fewer specific memories retrieved in comparison to controls."Autobiographical memory and social problem-solving in Asperger syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI

I couldn't read the full article, but from the abstract, it is not immediately clear how problem solving was related to memories. They don't report or even discuss the link. This is strange given the whole article is supposed to be about the link of AS with memories. I mean social problem solving is a problem in Asperger, as the authors say at the start. So their study shown that their people with AS had problems with social problem solving... as expected, so what is new?

They also separately demonstrated that people with Asperger were slower to retrieve memories and had fewer memories. It does not show the link. Most importantly it does not show cause - effect relationship, the direction of it. People with a developmental disorder in social interactions would have radically different memories of social interactions compared to neurotypical people. Autism could, and in my opinion, would cause to have different memories, like fewer social interactions, fewer happy memories, memories of confused interactions, so it might be more difficult to identify what interactions in the past are a good success model for the situation right now, if it didn't work back then, how are we to be sure it is the right way to act now. So from this point of view, it is difficult to see what past memories are good to apply now. Some memories could be painful and triggering and cause emotions which delay and interfere with the problem solving of the situation right now. So it would seem obvious that autistic memories would be less helpful to problem solve, but not necessarily as the cause of autism, but as a consequence of it...
I also don't know whether they proven what role the memories play in neurotypicals, i.e. whether they are clear what they compare autistic memories with.

For this science to be robust, they need to take all those factors into account, like emotions about memories interfering with problem solving.

 

[RosaViolet]

Was surprised because I assumed that by now, science would have evolved in it's study of autism. Without relying on the inaccuracies and assumptions of the past.

Exactly.
Why don't they ask autistic people to comment on this 'science'?