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Math that I discovered

Nervous Rex

High-functioning autistic
V.I.P Member
Last week I found something that blew my mind. It's not new to the mathematical world - it's just new to me. I don't have anyone here to share it with (no friends or family are interested enough to sit through this), so I'm sharing it here.

Background:
The set of all integers is "countably infinite". This means it's infinite, but there is a counting order - from wherever you are in the list, you know exactly which number is next.

The set of all real numbers is "uncountably infinite" - it's infinitely larger than "countably infinite" because there's no next number. You can pick any two numbers and no matter how close they are, you can always find more numbers in between. If I say 1.4 follows 1.3, I can see that 1.35 falls between the two, and 1.31 comes before 1.35, but 1.3000000000...<insert as many zeros as you want>...1 comes before that.

What I discovered:

Any finitely-bounded subset of the real number set is just as large as the real number set itself:

You can pick any interval in the real number line - pick a low number, L, and a high number, H. There are uncountably infinite numbers between L and H. You can prove this by defining a bijection:
For any X between L and H, we can map it to a number, R, on the Real number line with:
R = Tan(-pi/2 + pi*(X - L)/(H-L))
We can convert back to X from R with:
X = (Atan(R)+pi/2)*(H-L)/pi+L

This associates every real number from -infinity to infinity to a real number between H and L. It means that the size of the set of real numbers between any L and H that you choose is just as large as the size of the set of all real numbers from -infinity to infinity. There are uncountably infinite real numbers from -infinity to infinity. There are also uncountably infinite numbers between 0 and 1, and between 1.000000000001 and 1.000000000002, etc.

This also means that you could say:
There are uncountably infinite real numbers between 0 and 1.
There are uncountably infinite real numbers between 1 and 2.
There are uncountably infinite real numbers between 2 and 3.
....
So the set of real numbers can be divided into a countably infinite number of subsets of uncountably infinite numbers.

The difference between countable and uncountable infinities:
I thought that one difference was that when you pick two numbers, say 1 and 10, the set of all natural numbers has a finite number of elements in that range (10 numbers). But the set of all real numbers has an uncountably infinite number of elements in that range. I thought, "Aha. This is a major difference between the two". But then I discovered:

The set of all fractions is just as large as the set of all natural numbers.
Cantor proved this by defining an order for counting all fractions. Here's an illustration: Link.

Any finitely-bounded subset of the set of fractions is just as large as the set of all fractions:
Given the fractions a/b < c/d, we can pick any fraction 0 ≤ x/y ≤ 1 and use it to find a fraction in [a/b, c/d] with:
new fraction = a/b + (x/y)*(c/d - a/b)

Since there are countably infinite ways to choose x and y, this means that you can pick any two elements in the set of all fractions and there will be a countably infinite number of fractions between the two.

What blew my mind:
Suddenly, we have taken a countably infinite set, the set of natural numbers, which were well-ordered and could be divided into intervals with finite elements (e.g. elements 1 to 10) and turned it into a set which is still countably infinite but which has a countably infinite number of elements in any interval you choose!

Now, just like we did with the set of real numbers, we can say: the set of real numbers can be divided into a countably infinite number of subsets of countably infinite numbers.

A recap:
The set of real numbers uncountably infinite in size. Every subset defined by a lower and upper element is also uncountably infinite in size.
The set of natural numbers is countably infinite in size. Every subset defined by a lower and upper element is finite in size.
The set of fractions is countably infinite in size. Every subset defined by a lower and upper element is countably infinite in size.
And yet, the set of fractions is the same size as the set of natural numbers.

I just think this is so cool.

Now, do I say "Thank you for letting me infodump" or "Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk"?
 
Yeah infinities can be pretty mind blowing when you first look into them. It may be easier to look at the real numbers have "higher frequency" as you move through a limited span, than do integers. Even though both are infinite. And, this does imply that there are more irrational numbers than fractions, given the frequency model.
 
"Thank you for letting me infodump"
You're welcome.

Infinites and math in general are fascinating.

I have to say I still don't get Cantor's approach to counting rational numbers. For example, how can 2/1 fall between 1/3 and 1/4? But I'm willing to entertain the idea that Cantor knows a bit more about this than I do. :D
 
You're welcome.

Infinites and math in general are fascinating.

I have to say I still don't get Cantor's approach to counting rational numbers. For example, how can 2/1 fall between 1/3 and 1/4? But I'm willing to entertain the idea that Cantor knows a bit more about this than I do. :D
Yeah, it can be a little confusing. The idea is not that they are counted in order ... just the fact that they can be counted at all. The fact that there is an algorithm which is able to count them. Real numbers are uncountable, because the linked chart fails. But rational numbers are indeed countable using Cantor's methods (though infinite, so don't try LOL)
 
You're welcome.

Infinites and math in general are fascinating.

I have to say I still don't get Cantor's approach to counting rational numbers. For example, how can 2/1 fall between 1/3 and 1/4? But I'm willing to entertain the idea that Cantor knows a bit more about this than I do. :D
Don't think of them as numbers but as letters - you can put the alphabet in any order that you want.

Cantor didn't consider the fractions as specific numerical values, but just as elements in a set ("things" in a "collection"). Then, he defined his own custom way of sorting them so that he could be sure to hit them all if he just kept at it forever.
 
Interestingly, integers are also countable, and are certainly not ordered using the same method.
.
[ 0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3 ... ]
 
Interestingly, integers are also countable, and are certainly not ordered using the same method.
.
[ 0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3 ... ]
Yeah. Another way to convert two fractions to integers is to "zip" them together:

NN / DD => NDND.
13/24 => 1234
13/4 => 13/04 (pad with zeros, if needed) => 1034
-2/1387 => -002/1387 => -1030827

It's reversible, too:
10403056 => 1435/0006 (remove padded zeros) => 1435/6

This also produces a lot of invalid entries, like 1030 => 13/0, but it's enough to show that fractions are countable.
 
Yeah. Another way to convert two fractions to integers is to "zip" them together:

NN / DD => NDND.
13/24 => 1234
13/4 => 13/04 (pad with zeros, if needed) => 1034
-2/1387 => -002/1387 => -1030827

It's reversible, too:
10403056 => 1435/0006 (remove padded zeros) => 1435/6

This also produces a lot of invalid entries, like 1030 => 13/0, but it's enough to show that fractions are countable.
I've seen this method done as well, I love theoretical math :)
 
I've seen this method done as well, I love theoretical math :)
I love it, too. I actually happened upon this discovery because I was exploring all the ways you can add or multiply (cartesian product) finite and infinite sets to see what set sizes they produce - studying the Continuum Hypothesis.

I've explored a lot of problems in number theory for fun. I don't ever expect to find anything groundbreaking (and I never have), but I always learn something along the way.

Also - and this is actually the main reason - math pushes out all the other thoughts, worries, and stresses and it helps me to relax at night.
 
I love it, too. I actually happened upon this discovery because I was exploring all the ways you can add or multiply (cartesian product) finite and infinite sets to see what set sizes they produce - studying the Continuum Hypothesis.

I've explored a lot of problems in number theory for fun. I don't ever expect to find anything groundbreaking (and I never have), but I always learn something along the way.

Also - and this is actually the main reason - math pushes out all the other thoughts, worries, and stresses and it helps me to relax at night.
I agree 100% with the last part. It takes so much dedicated focus, that nothing else can come through. Contra, if I'm not able to give it most of my attention, I have no patience for it. But maybe watching a YouTube or something well help with that sometimes.
.
Have you ever looked into infinitesimal math? I haven't looked very far, but found it quite intriguing.
.
I also love Mandelbrot graphs. And the Golden Ratio.
 
It seems to me that many of the points in the OP were covered in this video,...
How An Infinite Hotel Ran Out Of Room, Veritasium
 
It seems to me that many of the points in the OP were covered in this video,...
How An Infinite Hotel Ran Out Of Room, Veritasium
I like that. I read about the Hilbert Hotel in the book "One Two Three Infinity" about 30-40 years ago.

I hadn't seen the solution for an infinite number of infinitely large busses before. That highlights that the addition of a countably infinite number of countably infinite sets is equivalent to the cartesian product of two countably infinite sets.
 
Have you ever looked into infinitesimal math? I haven't looked very far, but found it quite intriguing.
I haven't, unless it relates to the origin of integrals. Is this going to be my next obsession?

I also love Mandelbrot graphs. And the Golden Ratio.

I played with Fractint a lot when fractals first came out, but never delved into the math behind fractals. I was able to attend a guest lecture by Dr. Mandelbrot when I was in college - it was quite entertaining. He mentioned that he had tried to print some of his first fractals, but that the facilities people kept throwing them away. They would see pages of random blobs coming out of the printer and think the printer was malfunctioning.

I love the Golden Ratio as it applies to the Fibonacci series. I took an online class one time that showed how to derive a formula for the Nth Fibonacci number - So you could directly calculate the billionth Fibonacci number instead of doing a billion additions.
 

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