Lying and lying

[Suzanne]

Since being on aspiecentral, I have learned so much about myself and one thing that got my curiosity and thus, pondered on it is this idea that aspies do not lie.

I feel there are two types of lies ( no not big black ones or white ones).

I have a habit of lying; it was worse, but it was called: survival, even if for the wrong reasons. I learned as a child how to lie and it carried on to my adulthood and quite frankly, I am very good at lying because I have a long memory. But there is lying to cover up something one is doing wrong and there is a lie to save the other person from pain.

I now come to the conclusion that whether we are aspies or nts, we all can tell lies. However, what to my mind is the defining attribution to aspies is that we have this deep yearning to tell the truth. So, for example if a friend was to say to me: do you think this top looks good on me, I have to stop myself from telling her that actually it is awful, but I know that I have to be diplomatic and only when she gives me permission to tell her the truth, do I, but not bluntly.

I have got myself in deep water, from telling the truth, as I have for lying.

If someone asks how you are, but you know they don't really care ( I can tell if someone doesn't really want to know), you may say I am great thanks, but you are not: that is lying!

So there is cold calculated lying and diplomatic lying.

I have to add, that for some time now, I have reaped the benefits of not lying because I am not doing anything wrong; in the past it was related to chatting with other men, which I no longer do.

The final is that I struggle with diplomacy and often have been stamped on, for being truthful, but this is not the same as one who cannot tell a lie because it is not in them to tell lies, which is very much supposed to be an aspie thing!

Lastly if non of this makes a lot of sense, please excuse me, it is one of my random thoughts, that for once, I am sharing!

 

[Ylva]

I can lie, but it's usually quite transparent. I'm too impulsive to cover up my feelings most of the time, so even though I don't plan on alienating the person I have come to just accept it. Surprise me with a question whose answer has emotional impact on you, and I might as well just turn and walk away.

 

[AsheSkyler]

I'm a dang good liar when I need to be. Most of my lies have been diplomatic or to protect somebody, but I have pulled off a few good ones that saved my hide until it was a good time to be honest about it.

One of my straying thoughts that anybody who ever took up any kind of acting or story telling was quite frankly a liar because what they said, did, or wrote was not true. Your name's not Jim and you don't really love Jane and there is no such thing as gryphons.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

Since being on aspiecentral, I have learned so much about myself and one thing that got my curiosity and thus, pondered on it is this idea that aspies do not lie.

The final is that I struggle with diplomacy and often have been stamped on, for being truthful, but this is not the same as one who cannot tell a lie because it is not in them to tell lies, which is very much supposed to be an aspie thing!

FWIW, everything you wrote makes sense to me

Temple Grandin wrote: Diplomacy and honesty are two different things (Unwritten Rules of Social Relationships)

I no longer regard diplomacy as dishonesty, myself, but I still struggle with it a bit. My problem now is whether the most important thing at the time is to engage, or to defer. A lot actually depends on context, such as are we in public, where do I find the justice or the injustice in this, and do I think I really have enough data, and what do my own values say? I am finally learning that I need to know how I feel, too. That's harder than I thought it was.

 

[Progster]

I find it hard to lie and hide the fact that I'm lying, so I avoid it if I can. It feels wrong, and extremely awkward. If a close family member or friend asked me if I liked their new jumper, but I thought it was hideous, then I'd say that it doesn't suit them, or that it's not my taste, not something that I would wear, but no reason why they shouldn't wear it if they like it, they shouldn't worry so much about what people think anyway and just do what they want. My opinion is that if they don't want an honest opinion, then why did they ask? I also don't see why people should actually be offended by another person not liking the same things as them. I mean, I can't expect all people to like my music and would never be offended by a person saying that they don't like a new CD I bought. It's all a matter of taste. Lying to protect people's feelings isn't always helpful anyway. It wouldn't be helpful to my sister, for example, if she were preparing food for guests, she asked me if I liked it and I yes, it's great, but actually she'd put way too much chili powder in it and the guests couldn't eat the food.

 

[Tia Maria]

Example of diplomacy, white lies to spare someone's feelings (yet also wishing to spare them future embarrassment):

Me: Does this shirt look good?

Husband or sister: Yes, it looks fine. Do you have something else you could wear?

Me: Yes, (dammit) I'll change.

Success. LOL!!!

 

[Ylva]

Example of diplomacy, white lies to spare someone's feelings (yet also wishing to spare them future embarrassment):

Me: Does this shirt look good?

Husband or sister: Yes, it looks fine. Do you have something else you could wear?

See, I'd take offense at that. It's bad enough if someone's actions contradict their words, but having their words contradict their words? Dishonest.

 

[Tia Maria]

See, I'd take offense at that. It's bad enough if someone's actions contradict their words, but having their words contradict their words? Dishonest.

Your taking offense to that reflects either your Aspergers or whatever other mental &/or emotional issues you have going on, because it truly would not be offensive to an average person. You must not "get" the nuance (which is no problem).

And there is no dishonesty. Saying something looks "fine" does not say it looks terrible nor that it looks great or even good. It says it's fine, i.e.; acceptable or okay. In other words, something else might look better, but if you have nothing else to wear, what you have on isn't terrible & you can wear it ... & feel okay wearing it versus feeling, OMG I look awful & can't go out.

 

[Nadador]

Example of diplomacy, white lies to spare someone's feelings (yet also wishing to spare them future embarrassment):

Me: Does this shirt look good?
Husband or sister: Yes, it looks fine. Do you have something else you could wear?
Me: Yes, (dammit) I'll change.

See, I'd take offense at that. It's bad enough if someone's actions contradict their words, but having their words contradict their words? Dishonest.

Your taking offense to that reflects either your Aspergers or whatever other mental &/or emotional issues you have going on, because it truly would not be offensive to an average person. You must not "get" the nuance (which is no problem).

And there is no dishonesty...(edit)

I can see where Ylva is coming from. To me, "Yes, it looks fine. Do you have something else you could wear?" would be terribly confusing and not at all appreciated. I'd likely ask for clarification, and if the answer was that the shirt looks acceptable but you think I could do better, I'd ask why you didn't just say that in the bloody first place. "Fine" is one of those words that means everything and nothing. It's dishonest if it's used to avoid explicit honesty, in my book.

Diplomatic lying is dangerous territory for many Aspies, I would think. Using myself as an example, if I bother to ask a question at all it's because I really want the truth. Give me anything else and I'll not be impressed. I hate feeling patted on the head.

Suzanne's example is an exception. If someone says "How are you?", I understand it as a simple, customary greeting that isn't meant to get a true response. I also understand that some people will ask how something looks on them so others will give them a boost, but I reckon those people ask me at their own peril.

 

[Suzanne]

Example of diplomacy, white lies to spare someone's feelings (yet also wishing to spare them future embarrassment):

Me: Does this shirt look good?

Husband or sister: Yes, it looks fine. Do you have something else you could wear?

Me: Yes, (dammit) I'll change.

Success. LOL!!!

Reminds me of an occasion when I was doing ironing for people and this one lady was just about to leave and my husband said: I must ask where did you get your cardigan? She beamed at him and told him with pride. He said: I must remind my wife not to go to that shop! I never saw her again!

 

[Ylva]

Your taking offense to that reflects either your Aspergers or whatever other mental &/or emotional issues you have going on

On that note, would you take offense if you said "I find that rather offensive" and someone told you that you only feel that way because of your mental and emotional issues?

 

[Suzanne]

Example of diplomacy, white lies to spare someone's feelings (yet also wishing to spare them future embarrassment):

Me: Does this shirt look good?

Husband or sister: Yes, it looks fine. Do you have something else you could wear?

Me: Yes, (dammit) I'll change.

Success. LOL!!!

My husband often says things like this to me and I get so annoyed with him and ask him to just tell me out right, whether he likes it or not; but please do not play mind games with me, it will fail.

 

[Suzanne]

I can see where Ylva is coming from. To me, "Yes, it looks fine. Do you have something else you could wear?" would be terribly confusing and not at all appreciated. I'd likely ask for clarification, and if the answer was that the shirt looks acceptable but you think I could do better, I'd ask why you didn't just say that in the bloody first place. "Fine" is one of those words that means everything and nothing. It's dishonest if it's used to avoid explicit honesty, in my book.

Diplomatic lying is dangerous territory for many Aspies, I would think. Using myself as an example, if I bother to ask a question at all it's because I really want the truth. Give me anything else and I'll not be impressed. I hate feeling patted on the head.

Suzanne's example is an exception. If someone says "How are you?", I understand it as a simple, customary greeting that isn't meant to get a true response. I also understand that some people will ask how something looks on them so others will give them a boost, but I reckon those people ask me at their own peril.

Yes and mind games, which are not very kind!!!

 

[Nadador]

Yes and mind games, which are not very kind!!!

The worst of it is, it's not intentional. It's how most Westerners are enculturated to be. Vague, patronising, avoidant....

 

[ayoungaspie]

I remember making a thread about lies a few weeks ago. I think my problem is "pathological lying". To be honest though I never really get asked about whether something looks good or not, but perhaps that's because people will only ask if they think I will like it??? Maybe it's because I'm a guy and those sorts of questions get asked between girls?

In regard to the pathological lying, it really was a bad habit for a long time. For example when I was younger I hid my school bag and pretended I didn't know where it was -- and this was for no apparent reason, to this day I can't explain to my parents why I did it. It only makes sense in my mind. The most serious case that got me into trouble was when I pretended the bus driver had made me pay for a ticket when I had a pass. The truth was that he had warned me that I couldn't use my pass this particular day but let me off. I think in these cases I just got a thrill of seeing what happened when I lied and twisted.

 

[Datura]

I won't lie, I do lie on occasion. It's usually to protect myself or someone else. The lies I tell most often are usually little detail changes when talking about my past, like changing the gender of past partners to avoid coming out to coworkers when I know their reactions to such information could be unfavorable.

Where my honesty had been a great weakness is in sales. I used to sell cell pones. I inc got in trouble for doing what I felt was my job. A couple of guys were looking at phones and pointed out one of the models. "I hear that this phone is a piece of $#@% and breaks easily. Is that true." He asked. "Yes, I do see quite a few of them come in for repairs. The screen is very fragile." I then went on to show him more durable models.

Two days later my supervisor pulled me aside to talk to me. "I hear you told one of our customers that this phone was a piece of $#&%" I explained that I hadn't, that I had simply agreed that it is fragile as I had heard this from other customers and seen quite a few come in for repairs. She told me I should have said something more along the lines of, "This phone has a highly sensitive touch screen so you really want to baby it. Can I interest you in a carrying case?" She asked me how I would feel, as a customer, if a sales person told me that a product had a defect. I told her it would make me feel more confident in that sales person's opinion because they are obviously not afraid to sugarcoat the truth. She never explained how this would make her feel.

 

[Tia Maria]

On that note, would you take offense if you said "I find that rather offensive" and someone told you that you only feel that way because of your mental and emotional issues?

Ylva, You wrote, "On that note, would you take offense if you said "I find that rather offensive" and someone told you that you only feel that way because of your mental and emotional issues?"

No, I wouldn't take offense if there was a chance it could possibly be true.
I wrote that to you with honesty, not to offend you. You must doubt that because your whole argument stems from claiming to wanting to hear only the bare & honest truth. Well, that was the bare & unvarnished truth from my vantage point. Perhaps I should have been "diplomatic" & omitted sharing it.
On the other hand, if someone told me that as a way to put me down, dismiss or offend me; then I would consider it a rude, offensive & even unfair remark. This was not the basis for what I wrote. Perhaps it was inappropriate & I apologize if it seemed so to you.

 

[Tia Maria]

I wanted to follow up to say that my original comment was actually intended as humor. HUMOR. You know, funny, haha.

That was my mistake because there is evidently a stark difference between how some of you view & receive information, & how I may view or receive information.

I then responded reactively, with an explanation of sorts, because I was surprised (& annoyed) to see offense taken, & to receive criticism over something so benign that was intended lightly.

I find it offensive that something so minuscule in importance, that I shared in humor, would be used as an example of how NTs (or those from the West) are dishonest, &/or don't engage in open, honest, healthy communication or relationships etc... That is just one of many false beliefs, biases or misconceptions that a few here seem to harbor. It is far from accurate & I personally have very solid, healthy & happy long term relationships including with my family & husband of 20+ years.

And honesty is considered a 'must have' personal value & character trait in most personal relationships & Western society in general.

Sure there are dishonest individuals, but their dishonesty is usually revealed eventually & either scorned if not punished. Honesty goes along with another 'must have' value - not stealing, i.e.; respecting another person's property. People who lie or steal in society are not respected, admired or ultimately rewarded. My parents passed down something they were taught by their parents, "There is nothing worse than a liar or a thief."

I personally eschew people who do not hold my same values. That is not to say that anyone in the world is perfect or never makes mistakes, but having good values - & being honest - is not an option, & I am not unique in that thinking.

But yes, in the real world, there is a distinct difference between dishonesty & lying, & what most people would call telling "a little white lie". A 'little white lie' by definition should be little, inconsequential & also harmless.

Good judgement & maturity are required to know or understand when a "little white lie" or some diplomacy might be appropriate or at least 'okay' versus a full blown blast of blatant truth telling.

I can understand that for anyone who cannot or does not ascertain or read the difference between nuanced speech &/or behavior - that might be problematic.
And obviously, if a person has a relationship or friendship with someone who reports they are an Aspie, or just feels the same as any of you regarding literalness or whatever, that friend or partner should always be as direct as possible & attempt to communicate in a way works best between them. But that goes along with two people understanding & knowing each other, & also mutually respecting & caring for each other.

Many people, myself included, mostly refrain from telling "white lies" but instead (try to) follow the adage: If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything.

I have employed that here on this site. If I write something positive, encouraging or complimentary, you can be assured that I believe it & mean it 100%. However, if I feel someone is self destructive & sabotaging them self because of their feelings of entitlement, grandiose or delusional thinking, or an overall bad attitude in general, I say nothing.

As for the notion of 'diplomacy', most non-aspergers people easily know the difference between when it might be better to spare someone's feelings, or more important to tell them something that they might not want to hear, & even be hurt by.

For example, if a friend told you they are entering a recipe into a competition & you are quite sure that recipe would be universally disliked, you should tell them so & maybe help them select a different recipe instead.

Another example, if a friend wishes to approach someone they are interested in romantically for a date, & you know for a fact that the object of their affection is NOT interested in them; you would be doing your friend a favor by telling them what you know.

If all that takes too much analyzing to deal with or figure out, no problem, & I think you should just be yourself, & say what you think & feel unbarred.

I would not criticize any of you for being that way, but likewise who are any of you to criticize "NTs" for easily maneuvering such communication differences.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, & I have absolutely no desire to argue or debate the topic. I wish you all well.

 

[Tia Maria]

I won't lie, I do lie on occasion. It's usually to protect myself or someone else. The lies I tell most often are usually little detail changes when talking about my past, like changing the gender of past partners to avoid coming out to coworkers when I know their reactions to such information could be unfavorable.

Where my honesty had been a great weakness is in sales. I used to sell cell pones. I inc got in trouble for doing what I felt was my job. A couple of guys were looking at phones and pointed out one of the models. "I hear that this phone is a piece of $#@% and breaks easily. Is that true." He asked. "Yes, I do see quite a few of them come in for repairs. The screen is very fragile." I then went on to show him more durable models.

Two days later my supervisor pulled me aside to talk to me. ,,,

Datura, not sharing your sexual orientation etc ... falls under an entirely different category because it is your own personal, private business & not something you are required to just randomly or carelessly share with just anyone. Other than a true 'need to know' basis it is completely up to you & your own judgement who you feel comfortable sharing that with; & most people would not consider you to be a liar for keeping something so personal to yourself . . . since it is none of most people's business. You are right to be protective of yourself in that way.

Regarding the sales experience you described, in my opinion that's unfortunate.

A good sales supervisor would want to help their team members by coaching them ... & sometimes there IS a "better" way to explain or 'word' something to a customer or client. Any good sales person should also desire to learn & improve. But sales people should always be truthful.

Acknowledging that a certain phone is indeed fragile, & pointing out more durable models as an alternative is helping a customer meet their needs & hopefully become a satisfied customer. Of course if they actually want the 'fragile' model, explaining that they need to be very careful with it & also use a protective case may also suit their needs. But only bad sales people are untruthful.

 

[OliveOilMom]

I think the whole "aspies don't lie" thing came from studying the aspies who only see things as black and white and who are so serious about following the rules that they feel that everybody should do exactly as the rules say no matter what and because someone once told them not to lie, they took it to include all lies, white lies included.

While there are some of us who can't see grey areas, there are many of us who can.

Lying on the spur of the moment and thinking quickly on your feet may not be an aspie trait, and it wasn't one that I had but it was something I could learn and I did learn it. I was a private investigator and also a bounty hunter in the past and you sure can't do those jobs if you can't lie well and convincingly.

I learned how to lie when I was about 16 or 17 and going out with friends. I'd be later or have to come up with some reason to ask my mother so I could get out of the house and I was horrible at it. I had a good friend who sat me down and gave me instructions on how to lie and how to lie good. He taught me a lot, and I learned it very quickly because I made learning things like that a special interest. I was basically obsessed with noticing and learning social skills and other things, and because of that, and because I had actual help with it I was able to learn those things.

I also think learning those things from people who were trying to teach me how to fit into the same social circles that they were in worked a lot better for me than someone social skills teacher trying to teach me how to generically fit in and also throw in a right and wrong aspect of it.