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Is there such a thing as an UNREASONABLE accommodation?

autism-and-autotune

A musical mind with recent revelations
As I get ready to head into work, this question has been spinning in my head since my interviews. Yes, education and employment is meant to provide its people with 'reasonable accommodations' so they can complete educational lessons or work tasks. But what is 'reasonable' and what isn't? This question...I guess it's food for thought, but I still wonder. Should any kind of accommodation be deemed reasonable and necessary since it affects our overall mental health and performance?
 
Yes, it's a good question.

The problem is, the words reasonable and unreasonable are subjective terms. In company policies, the term reasonable is sometimes only, at best, vaguely defined, maybe even deliberately.

Some selfish people believe the word reasonable translates to the company bowing to their every wish, they maneuver it into allowing them to have an easy job, forcing their own definition of reasonable on people.

Other times, the company can claim our requests for small quality of life adjustments are unreasonable, sometimes because they can't be bothered or are too incompetent to accommodate us, so they can just dismiss us as being unreasonable. In some cases, denying a reasonable request may even lean towards discrimination.
 
Accommodation requests can most certainly be unreasonable. If we're talking about employment and work environments, remember that accommodations are not only about the employee asking for the accommodations, they're about the business the employee works for and it's ability or lack of ability to offer the accommodations.

>It would be reasonable for an employee to ask for their own office with a door if they're sensitive to sound, etc and that business had offices available. It would not be reasonable for an employee to ask for an office with a door in an open spaced business that has no offices with closed doors at all. Asking them to remodel the space or perhaps even add on to it to make an office for the person would be unreasonable.
>It would be unreasonable for an employee to request a fragrance free work environment...in a perfumery.
>It would be unreasonable for an employee to request that fluorescent lighting be changed to LED in a large business like a department store, etc because of their sensitivity to fluorescent light.

I think my point is made by the above examples even though I'm sure I could think up more.
 
The thread title threw me a bit at first, I spent 3 years living under a large tarpaulin. :)

As a Printer I used to always negotiate terms and conditions during a job interview. I was worth good money and I knew it, but it wasn't always just about the money, we'd go over how much overtime could be expected and I'd inspect the workshop to assess how easy or difficult it would be to work there.

We'd negotiate and come to an agreement. Some people didn't want to negotiate, with most of those I simply appologised for wasting their time and left.
 
As I get ready to head into work, this question has been spinning in my head since my interviews. Yes, education and employment is meant to provide its people with 'reasonable accommodations' so they can complete educational lessons or work tasks. But what is 'reasonable' and what isn't? This question...I guess it's food for thought, but I still wonder. Should any kind of accommodation be deemed reasonable and necessary since it affects our overall mental health and performance?

Such a basic question, and yet so complicated. However I'll offer an opinion based on a less common perspective.

Driven first and foremost by legal concerns, then perhaps fiscal impact. In essence the very term "reasonable" conjures up scenes of lawyers and courtrooms more than a meeting of officers and directors. That in the private sector it's more a matter of leverage and threats from the outside that motivates such concerns. Not so much the conscience of a business and how it relates to their employees.

As a former workers compensation underwriter, under the contractual terms of an insurance agreement I could force a business to comply with all kinds of "accommodations" we saw fit based on hazards and exposures. However this was in a time when considerations of autism were non-existent.

Basically whatever an insurer wanted back then, they got. Too much money at stake, involving keeping workers compensation premiums at a minimum based on loss experience. Though at times I thought it was sad that people like me had to "leverage" employers in having to alleviate in some cases working conditions that were physically unacceptable or even dangerous. An issue I ran into in particular over the jobs of registered nurses. Working professionals who were often treated by management like menial laborers.

In essence from my perspective, most businesses are only going to accommodate employees when they must.
 
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As I get ready to head into work, this question has been spinning in my head since my interviews. Yes, education and employment is meant to provide its people with 'reasonable accommodations' so they can complete educational lessons or work tasks. But what is 'reasonable' and what isn't? This question...I guess it's food for thought, but I still wonder. Should any kind of accommodation be deemed reasonable and necessary since it affects our overall mental health and performance?
I am going to be direct, here. Look at the job description. If your accommodations do not interfere with the job description, then I am thinking you are probably in good shape. Bottom line, "Are you able to perform the duties of the job?" Great. On the other hand, if your accommodations mean that someone else on the team has to work harder, or pick up your slack because of your accommodations, then I am thinking not.
 
I am going to be direct, here. Look at the job description. If your accommodations do not interfere with the job description, then I am thinking you are probably in good shape. Bottom line, "Are you able to perform the duties of the job?" Great. On the other hand, if your accommodations mean that someone else on the team has to work harder, or pick up your slack because of your accommodations, then I am thinking not.
Ah...thanks for clarifying. :)
 
Yes, it's a good question.

The problem is, the words reasonable and unreasonable are subjective terms. In company policies, the term reasonable is sometimes only, at best, vaguely defined, maybe even deliberately.

Some selfish people believe the word reasonable translates to the company bowing to their every wish, they maneuver it into allowing them to have an easy job, forcing their own definition of reasonable on people.

Other times, the company can claim our requests for small quality of life adjustments are unreasonable, sometimes because they can't be bothered or are too incompetent to accommodate us, so they can just dismiss us as being unreasonable. In some cases, denying a reasonable request may even lean towards discrimination.
Yeah...you're right. Well, with your last bit about discrimination--does it count as discrimination if I'd never revealed my disability in the first place? But even that was only out of fear of not being hired...which would itself be...discrimination.
 
Accommodation requests can most certainly be unreasonable. If we're talking about employment and work environments, remember that accommodations are not only about the employee asking for the accommodations, they're about the business the employee works for and it's ability or lack of ability to offer the accommodations.

>It would be reasonable for an employee to ask for their own office with a door if they're sensitive to sound, etc and that business had offices available. It would not be reasonable for an employee to ask for an office with a door in an open spaced business that has no offices with closed doors at all. Asking them to remodel the space or perhaps even add on to it to make an office for the person would be unreasonable.
>It would be unreasonable for an employee to request a fragrance free work environment...in a perfumery.
>It would be unreasonable for an employee to request that fluorescent lighting be changed to LED in a large business like a department store, etc because of their sensitivity to fluorescent light.

I think my point is made by the above examples even though I'm sure I could think up more.
Ah, I see! good of you to point that out.

Yes--your examples are definitely helpful. As a cashier it would be unreasonable for me to request to wear earplugs, even though exposure to some sound causes loss of spoons, yet I need my hearing for the job performance. But maybe a reasonable request would be, say, five minutes extra per break if needed due to general mental wear-and-tear?
 
The thread title threw me a bit at first, I spent 3 years living under a large tarpaulin. :)

As a Printer I used to always negotiate terms and conditions during a job interview. I was worth good money and I knew it, but it wasn't always just about the money, we'd go over how much overtime could be expected and I'd inspect the workshop to assess how easy or difficult it would be to work there.

We'd negotiate and come to an agreement. Some people didn't want to negotiate, with most of those I simply apologiz ed for wasting their time and left.

Yikes! Sorry to hear that some places simply wouldn't negotiate. That's really sad. What sort of negotiations did you win at times?
 
Yikes! Sorry to hear that some places simply wouldn't negotiate. That's really sad. What sort of negotiations did you win at times?
The best job I ever had in my life was working for a man who had previously been the manager of another company that I had worked for. He had only just started up his own business and at that stage was still only a 1 man show. This was January, 1997.

He was a Printer himself so his workshop was laid out very logically and sensibly and was very easy to work in. He already knew me and he was familiar with both the standard of my work and my work ethic, that needed no discussion.

He also already knew that I smoked, drank beer and smoked dope all day while working and that I hated shoes and would work barefoot if I could get away with it. That also needed no discussion. Then came the talk about money:

“You’re only a one man show and you’ve mortgaged the house to set this place up, you can’t afford any of this double time and triple time malarky. My base rate is $600 a week and all overtime is only charged at straight time and a half. But, if it’s more than 2 hours overtime in a day you buy me tea and throw in a few beers.”

He was more than happy with that. He had a wife and kids so it was nothing for his wife to dish up an extra plate at tea time, and he’d run back in to work and bring me a fresh home cooked meal every night, and he never skimped on the beers either.

I ended up working on average about 70 hours a week, it’s the only time in my life I ever achieved the official national average income. I was earning $55K to $60K a year when most people were happy to be getting $30K.

The business grew and we ended up employing 6 others, Kev running the actual business and acting as the sales rep, me taking care of everything outside the office. I never bothered getting him to start paying proper overtime rates, I was earning shitloads, I had the best boss I’d ever had in my life and I loved being there.

Longest job I ever held in my life, lasted 5 years until I had a massive burn out. I didn’t know anything about autism back then.
 
does it count as discrimination if I'd never revealed my disability in the first place? But even that was only out of fear of not being hired...which would itself be...discrimination.
Another good question/point. I suppose that's one for the lawyers and people with much better reasoning and logic than me.
 
does it count as discrimination if I'd never revealed my disability in the first place? But even that was only out of fear of not being hired...which would itself be...discrimination.
In the U.S. my understanding is that in order to receive protection under the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) you have to disclose that you have a disability to your employer. An important thing to note: You don't have to disclose your actual disability, you have to disclose that you have A disability. You don't have to tell your employer specifically what your diagnoses is. I disclosed to my employer for accommodations which I received and I did choose to disclose my actual diagnosis of autism (professionally diagnosed of course).

It wouldn't work to not disclose and then say you were discriminated against based on a disability that they never knew had.

Your question about wanting an extra five minutes of break time over and above what your coworkers get for their breaks: I don't know if that would be considered reasonable by the employer or unreasonable. This all comes down in large part to the type of job and the employer's ability to accommodate.
 
I don't believe most companies would even offer accomodations that are supposedly "reasonable," although most people's idea of disability is still confined to physical disabilities. Smaller companies just can't afford it. Larger companies may be able afford it, but would rather hire people who are visiby able-bodied people just like they would prefer to hire younger people (as opposed to someone in their 60s) or people who aren't visibly pregnant or carrying a child when they're dropping off their job application.

Of course they're not going to be upfront about their preferences, but there's a reason desk jobs would sometimes list "must be able to lift 20 lbs" (although it's a desk job) or "must have excellent communication skills, both oral and written" (even if it's not a customer-facing job and communication comes in different forms). It's to eliminate or at least intimidate the disabled people from even applying for the job.

And again, the whole system relies on you being able to afford a lawyer and having all the time in the world to file a lawsuit and not backing down. Discrimination is really almost impossible to prove. It normally requires at least several people with similar characteristics who have experienced the same treatment from a single source, and even then each individual will need to have at least a few documented incidents of being discriminated (which I take to mean they have communicated the incident to another person, not just written it down in a personal notebook or something).

You can try to ask for accommodations, but just know they're unlikely to be met especially if you're new to the job and it's an entry-level job. Plus, wanting a longer break time than your coworkers will only make the boss think you're lazy and entitled, as well as causing your coworkers to resent you in a place where they're supposed to be your allies. I say don't do it. Suck it up, gain a few years of work experience, and then reassess.
 
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In the U.S. my understanding is that in order to receive protection under the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) you have to disclose that you have a disability to your employer. An important thing to note: You don't have to disclose your actual disability, you have to disclose that you have A disability. You don't have to tell your employer specifically what your diagnoses is. I disclosed to my employer for accommodations which I received and I did choose to disclose my actual diagnosis of autism (professionally diagnosed of course).

It wouldn't work to not disclose and then say you were discriminated against based on a disability that they never knew had.

Your question about wanting an extra five minutes of break time over and above what your coworkers get for their breaks: I don't know if that would be considered reasonable by the employer or unreasonable. This all comes down in large part to the type of job and the employer's ability to accommodate.
Your words are super helpful! I've already been in touch with my counselor regarding much of what you've written. Thank you bunches!
 
I don't believe most companies would even offer accomodations that are supposedly "reasonable," although most people's idea of disability is still confined to physical disabilities. Smaller companies just can't afford it. Larger companies may be able afford it, but would rather hire people who are visiby able-bodied people just like they would prefer to hire younger people (as opposed to someone in their 60s) or people who aren't visibly pregnant or carrying a child when they're dropping off their job application.

Of course they're not going to be upfront about their preferences, but there's a reason desk jobs would sometimes list "must be able to lift 20 lbs" (although it's a desk job) or "must have excellent communication skills, both oral and written" (even if it's not a customer-facing job and communication comes in different forms). It's to eliminate or at least intimidate the disabled people from even applying for the job.

And again, the whole system relies on you being able to afford a lawyer and having all the time in the world to file a lawsuit and not backing down. Discrimination is really almost impossible to prove. It normally requires at least several people with similar characteristics who have experienced the same treatment from a single source, and even then each individual will need to have at least a few documented incidents of being discriminated (which I take to mean they have communicated the incident to another person, not just written it down in a personal notebook or something).

You can try to ask for accommodations, but just know they're unlikely to be met especially if you're new to the job and it's an entry-level job. Plus, wanting a longer break time than your coworkers will only make the boss think you're lazy and entitled, as well as causing your coworkers to resent you in a place where they're supposed to be your allies. I say don't do it. Suck it up, gain a few years of work experience, and then reassess.
Hmm...I'll think about what you've written. Invisible disabilities make this sort of thing way more tough.
 
The best job I ever had in my life was working for a man who had previously been the manager of another company that I had worked for. He had only just started up his own business and at that stage was still only a 1 man show. This was January, 1997.

He was a Printer himself so his workshop was laid out very logically and sensibly and was very easy to work in. He already knew me and he was familiar with both the standard of my work and my work ethic, that needed no discussion.

He also already knew that I smoked, drank beer and smoked dope all day while working and that I hated shoes and would work barefoot if I could get away with it. That also needed no discussion. Then came the talk about money:

“You’re only a one man show and you’ve mortgaged the house to set this place up, you can’t afford any of this double time and triple time malarky. My base rate is $600 a week and all overtime is only charged at straight time and a half. But, if it’s more than 2 hours overtime in a day you buy me tea and throw in a few beers.”

He was more than happy with that. He had a wife and kids so it was nothing for his wife to dish up an extra plate at tea time, and he’d run back in to work and bring me a fresh home cooked meal every night, and he never skimped on the beers either.

I ended up working on average about 70 hours a week, it’s the only time in my life I ever achieved the official national average income. I was earning $55K to $60K a year when most people were happy to be getting $30K.

The business grew and we ended up employing 6 others, Kev running the actual business and acting as the sales rep, me taking care of everything outside the office. I never bothered getting him to start paying proper overtime rates, I was earning shitloads, I had the best boss I’d ever had in my life and I loved being there.

Longest job I ever held in my life, lasted 5 years until I had a massive burn out. I didn’t know anything about autism back then.
Wow! That sounds like you were literally living the dream, up til the burnout.
 
Hmm...I'll think about what you've written. Invisible disabilities make this sort of thing way more tough.

Definitely. The main challenge with invisible disabilities is that it's hard for someone to relate or connect.

If someone is in a wheelchair - it's easy to say, okay, we'll need to ensure we're wheelchair accessible, with wide enough hallways and doorways, ramps, and elevator access if applicable. One doesn't need to have mobility issues to envision what is needed.

But if someone has an invisible disability - for example, a sensory concern - that's kind of hard to explain, because one can't see the impact. Often, the best allies are those with disabilities, followed by those who have close family or friends with disabilities, as they would have that experience in understanding some of the challenges that may be faced, and so are more sympathetic.

A common issue for employers is worrying about costs (and most adaptations cost very little, if anything) and not knowing what to do - but fortunately there are an increasing number of resources available free online that can provide good starting points for them, if they are so inclined to peruse them.
 
The thread title threw me a bit at first, I spent 3 years living under a large tarpaulin. :)

As a Printer I used to always negotiate terms and conditions during a job interview. I was worth good money and I knew it, but it wasn't always just about the money, we'd go over how much overtime could be expected and I'd inspect the workshop to assess how easy or difficult it would be to work there.

We'd negotiate and come to an agreement. Some people didn't want to negotiate, with most of those I simply appologised for wasting their time and left.
You are fortunate you had the bandwidth to negotiate and not take a job. Most people have to take a job if they are offered it.
 

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