Is the rise in autism a sign of a human evolutionary process?

[Judge]

I’ve never understood why shoes must be worn in shops, restaurants, etc in America. Especially when tiny strap sandals count as shoes.

Maybe parasites living in feet? I think these are in Africa or tropical areas, not temperate USA.

I've always thought of that as mostly its symbolic meaning to business owners.

- "No shirt, no shoes, no service."

A metaphor reflecting the formal right to deny service over the most fundamental reasons, short of targeting specific groups of people in a discriminating manner. -Limited control over your premises.

 

[Grondhammar]

I've got nothing useful to contribute, but this has been a really interesting discussion to follow

 

[vergil96]

I would say feet stink without shoes But I'm from a cold country. And to be honest, I haven't noticed that with sandals, when the feet get a lot of air circulation. It would also seem unconfortable to me to walk without shoes, I haven't ever been tempted to walk barfoot even in the middle of the summer.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

It might be the case with all disabilities except for those that result from a genuinely damaged brain. Many people assume that a disabled person is stupid - no matter what the disability is, it might be hearing loss, vision impairment, it might be mobility issues, mental health (think someone who has trouble taking care of themself). It's not a true assumption.

Agree. If you are assessing intelligence of a blind person based upon their ability to read, for example. Stephan Hawking, during his end-stages of ALS, would not have been able to perform the most basic of childhood intelligence tests.

Is it not? It's diagnosed based on deficits and difficulties. Not talents. Personally, I would rather not have the difficulties and I consider them objective, not social. I have all the sensory issues, I'm easily very oberwhelmed and tired to the point that it prevents me from having an "optimal" lifestyle. I feel overwhelmed talking to people even 1 on 1 too much - it's not exactly the best for mental health to be that much of a loner. Sensory issues cost me a lot of work to work around them. Food is one of the worst ones. I have focal seizures. Frequent overwhelm and the extreme fatigue are also bad for mental health. Dyspraxia is quite difficult too (I can do everything that is needed but heck, it is so tiring to try to feel pressure and depth with my hands very often, playing a computer game is so much easier than using real hands for everyday tasks, there is a good feedback loop in a game - not busted). Everyone has their their advantages and disadvantages, so I accept it, but it's a drawback.

In my opinion, it could be beneficial if people had the good aspects of autism such as attention to detail, talents, great memory, ability to focus for a long period of time, but wouldn't have all the sensory problems "in the package".

It's all within this idea of "perspective" and "evolutionary trade-offs". If you are assessing the ability of a fish to climb a tree, then claiming the fish has "deficits" and "difficulties"...not talents. That's not a proper perspective. Neurotypicals have made their world... for them... not us. For every presumed deficit and difficulty we have trying to navigate the neurotypical world... I think we can all come up with a list of things that if it was OUR world, built for US, they would be the ones with the deficits and difficulties.

The sensory issues are a manifestation of the fact that many of us are able to access a broader range of frequencies and amplitudes across the energy spectrum... light, sound, touch, etc. Yes...it can be quite uncomfortable for us... and overwhelming, especially if it is coming in from multiple sources. The mental exhaustion is very real because our brains are operating at a significantly higher metabolic rate... there are often deficits in mitochondrial and energy metabolism, as well as neurotransmitter imbalances. I don't know about you, but seriously, I have about 4-6 hours out of the day to get all my tasks completed... I don't have all day... I can't procrastinate... get it done early in the day or it doesn't get done. I get it. Afternoons and evenings are just a drag for me.

All that said, in my 40 years experience dealing with people professionally and personally within the neurotypical world, I am well aware of my deficits and difficulties... I am quite self-aware... I play to my strengths, and when I do, I perform at a significantly higher level than most people. I know the rules of the game and in some cases, when I realize I am unable to play by those rules, if I can, I will make my own rules and keep playing the game. Adapt and overcome when I can. I have learned to delegate to others when I can. All said though, I am still a resource person and mentor to many of my co-workers because I have the intelligence, intellectual curiousity, and working knowledge of a lot more than they do... not arrogance... just something, they themselves have admitted and observed, even rewarded me financially and professionally.

Yes, it would be nice to have the whole package of increased abilities without all the "deficits and disabilities" and be able to cohabitate well within the neurotypical world. The reality, is that everything appears to have a cost. I don't know why that is, but it certainly appears that way. Our brothers and sisters with non-verbal, apraxic, autism... are able to decouple their consciousness, share it with others, be able to travel to other dimensions of communication and learning via "the Hill". They operate without an ego and are selflessly teaching us about love and unity. Holy crap! What an incredible, beautiful gift! All of that... but in order to have those gifts, you will be tortured within your own body, only have partial control of your body, and will lack the fine motor skills that allow you to verbally communicate. The costs can be steep.

If you mire yourself in all these deficits and disabilities, it is difficult to avoid depression. I am really making an effort to see myself as "something other"... that I am not "them"... I am my own person. My mental health is not dependent upon my abilities to perform at their level... I've moved past that.

As for the metaphysics... well, that's not my piece of cake. We know what we know and don't know what we don't know. I personally don't need to believe in anything about what we don't know - I accept that we don't know.

You and a lot of other people. I have been mired in the Western materialistic paradigm of science, my 5 senses, and the physical world... like so many others. Like I mentioned above, there's something else out there... something "additional" that I am opening my mind up to, mainly from learning from our non-verbal, apraxic, autistic brothers and sisters. I am highly attracted to this concept of a loss of ego, the entire message of love and unity... that our consciousness can be coupled and decoupled from our physical body... that there might be something beautiful beyond this physical world... especially given all the divisiveness, anger, and violence that has permeated our world today. I need to find some belief in a "sanctuary" away from all of this evil... and it starts with my attitude and perception.

 

[BatUtilityBelt]

I do lean into the "evolutionary tradeoff" angle. Let me preface this with having no scientific basis, only my own anecdotal life experiences. In my case, there seems to be a strong correlation between self-paced learning and my autistic aspects. It always led me to believe that, very early in my development, I chose a bias in favor of self-education over waiting to be taught anything. That presented early as my already knowing things they thought it was time to teach me, and being surprised that I didn't need it. But it also seemed to give me social difficulties. And though I was a self-taught reader, speaking seemed to require concentrated attention to translating thoughts into words with much more difficulty than others around me. It also seems to have made me a natural-born critical thinker, which served as the basis for my whole R&D career. But these are just my own observations, not something I would project on other people.

 

[Matthias]

Unique genetic changes:
Behaviors associated with disorders like autism and schizophrenia are not typically observed in non-human primates, suggesting these conditions are likely a uniquely human phenomenon.

This is a red flag for me as Harry Harlow demonstrated in the 1950s that social deprivation causes autistic-like traits in monkeys. I believe similar results were found in rats and other species.

 

[Outdated]

I would say feet stink without shoes...

Feet don't stink, bacterial infections do.

 

[the_tortoise]

People were more concerned about the stigma that went with having a defective child than they were about helping the child adapt. Sink or swim, only the toughest survived.

Some people are still like this....far too many people are still like this....

Make your kid normal (which may someday become "make your kid look normal" when they cannot pretend anymore that actual normality is possible) at any cost, don't let anyone label them, rage at them and/or beat them until they do better. Rage louder and hit harder when it doesn't work.

I strongly suspect it is the main reason why I wasn't diagnosed when I was 2 years old...instead was diagnosed at 24.

I have seen home movies my grandfather made from when I am a toddler....I am so, so incredibly obviously not normal. I was
not just "a bit odd"...I was well within the stereotypes of classic autism.

Just describing what I did and didn't do to my psychologist in those videos she confirmed my impression of how obviously autistic my behaviour was, and seemed a bit surprised at the beginning but then quickly not-at-all surprised....I watched her face change as she spoke sort of to herself and me at the same time. It was validating but sad.

I felt bad for myself....for the weird, misunderstood, confused little boy I was who experienced so much unecessary suffering...

Largey because my dad would not accept I was not normal and would, it turns out, literally never be able to come to terms with and be okay with that. (Credit to him: he tried in my adulthood - probably tried harder than I can appreciate, but it was too hard and he gave up and sort of reverted to his original abusive rejection and intolerance.)

And because really, at the time even if you were noted to have developmental issues (diagnosed or unignorable but unlabelled) even childcare workers and special ed teachers and child psychologists and doctors generally saw approximation or imitation or normality as the only acceptable endpoint goal...I think most of society is still like this (at least in Canada -- although it is changing slowly); They don't try to support and capitalize on a child (or adult) autistic's strengths and areas of ability while accomodating impairments and differences, they just try to remove the impairments and differences by hurtful and confusing force and do nothing with the strengths.

 

[vergil96]

I think we can all come up with a list of things that if it was OUR world, built for US, they would be the ones with the deficits and difficulties.

Not really. I simply hate some of those issues and would rather not waste time on them and get the life sucked out of me by them. They are still problems even on a desert island.

All of that... but in order to have those gifts, you will be tortured within your own body, only have partial control of your body, and will lack the fine motor skills that allow you to verbally communicate. The costs can be steep.

I hope you can see that it's not social. Verbal communication is one thing, but there was a student at my uni, who because of autism couldn't walk without a walker. There are many things the severely impacted autistic people struggle with such as using the toilet, taking a shower, making meals, eating. Some even pose a danger to themselves if left alone for too long. This is more commonly seen in people with dementia, Alzheimer's. Hawking also didn't have a social problem - mobility issues come with a broad range of challenges.

Well, I do very well professionally, but I don't see how it relates. Health problems are still health problems and are difficult even if we're talking about Einstein.

Agree. If you are assessing intelligence of a blind person based upon their ability to read, for example. Stephan Hawking, during his end-stages of ALS, would not have been able to perform the most basic of childhood intelligence tests.

Agreed.

I don't know about you, but seriously, I have about 4-6 hours out of the day to get all my tasks completed... I don't have all day... I can't procrastinate... get it done early in the day or it doesn't get done. I get it. Afternoons and evenings are just a drag for me.

I have a similar number of productive hours, but they can be more spread out and don't have to be in the morning. But this isn't what I was getting at, more that there are specific issues resulting from an autistic brain and that situations that cause overwhelm are very common - anything more stimulating than spending a day alone at the computer or reading and then taking a walk. And that there is also a number of other problems. I forgot to add struggling with change - change just is, you can't avoid it at all times or else you become a maladapted dinosaur.

Of course I'm not arguing that you're set up to fail if you have autism. It's an exaggeration. And a psychological issue, believing to be a loser. People have all kinds of difficulties and succeed in one way or another, we're not all cut out to do the same thing. Someone with dyspraxia might be a bad painter, but a good accountant.

The reality, is that everything appears to have a cost.

What is an advantage in one aspect, can be a disadvantage in another. Being tall is good for playing basketball, because you can reach the hoop easier, but shorter football players have better coordination.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Not really. I simply hate some of those issues and would rather not waste time on them and get the life sucked out of me by them. They are still problems even on a desert island.

There is this concept that "I am not disabled, per se, it's that the environment or situation has disabled me." This is more what I was getting at. For example, we can be social and communicate... but sometimes it is not how neurotypicals would most often do it.

I hope you can see that it's not social. Verbal communication is one thing, but there was a student at my uni, who because of autism couldn't walk without a walker. There are many things the severely impacted autistic people struggle with such as using the toilet, taking a shower, making meals, eating. Some even pose a danger to themselves if left alone for too long. This is more commonly seen in people with dementia, Alzheimer's. Hawking also didn't have a social problem - mobility issues come with a broad range of challenges.

Well, I do very well professionally, but I don't see how it relates. Health problems are still health problems and are difficult even if we're talking about Einstein.

I don't think we are that far off in our thinking here. However, a lack of mobility and the ability to speak is very much a social problem. If Hawking didn't have the motorized wheelchair and the computer interface to speak... if he had none of that... he would be very much isolated... and if no one knew who he was, they might mistake him for "not being in there". Our non-speaking, apraxic, autistic population is very much isolated for similar reasons... in fact, their entire family becomes isolated because trying to physically manage someone like this without being a "nuisance" in public is challenging. In the US, the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association (ASHA) still does not recognize letter boards as a "legitimate" means of communication... which sucks for those with apraxia just learning basic motor skills... they need assistance. You don't just suddenly have the ability to independently use a keyboard... it takes a lot of time to develop those motor skills. Luckily, parents simply bypass them and work with their children without that support. Once they have a "voice" they often have a lot of very profound things to say. It is very much social in that respect.

Of course I'm not arguing that you're set up to fail if you have autism. It's an exaggeration. And a psychological issue, believing to be a loser. People have all kinds of difficulties and succeed in one way or another, we're not all cut out to do the same thing. Someone with dyspraxia might be a bad painter, but a good accountant.

Agree. Play to your strengths. I think many of us get into this mindset that they "need" to fit in... and some of us get ourselves quite distressed about the fact that no matter what they do, they are unable. OK... I understand I am not a young person anymore... but I was... and in retrospect, hindsight being 20/20... you're playing a fools game trying to be something you are not. I am social, I have co-workers... but it is limited by time of contact and the relationship. I don't have friends. I have good acquaintances... people I like being around... but I am not being invited to social events... and that's OK. With self-acceptance of who you are, with a quiet self-confidence in your abilities, with a positive attitude and sense of humor, the people around you will sense that and want to be around you... despite any "odd behavior". The right people will see right through all of that and sense who you are as a person.

 

[TBRS1]

This is a red flag for me as Harry Harlow demonstrated in the 1950s that social deprivation causes autistic-like traits in monkeys. I believe similar results were found in rats and other species.

The key phrase is "autistic-like."

A thing can be autistic-like without being autism.

For example: If you give somebody a dose of LSD and take them to a carnival, there is a good chance they will display an "autistic-like" reaction to the chaotic stimulus.

However, an LSD trip is not autism.

 

[vergil96]

However, a lack of mobility and the ability to speak is very much a social problem. If Hawking didn't have the motorized wheelchair and the computer interface to speak... if he had none of that... he would be very much isolated...

I don't agree with you that it's a social problem and not a disability. Likewise needing a caretaker to use the toilet, shower, get food into your mouth. It's not social or subjective. Hawking would straight up die quickly if left alone on a farm without any of his devices, an able bodied person would not. It's an extreme example, but there is gradation to this as well, there are plenty of ways in which bodies make it objectively hard for people to live, it can be disability, chronic illness a whole spectrum of such problems. Often even with accommodations and medication, such a person has a hard time keeping up with the rest or simply has a dreadful life with a lot of struggle or uncomfortable dependence to perform the simplest tasks.

My point being, even with the social issues taken out of the equation, autism is one of those chronic health conditions for a segement of the autistic population.

For example, we can be social and communicate... but sometimes it is not how neurotypicals would most often do it.

That fits the concept of a social barrier a lot more...

Our non-speaking, apraxic, autistic population is very much isolated for similar reasons... in fact, their entire family becomes isolated because trying to physically manage someone like this without being a "nuisance" in public is challenging. In the US, the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association (ASHA) still does not recognize letter boards as a "legitimate" means of communication... which sucks for those with apraxia just learning basic motor skills... they need assistance. You don't just suddenly have the ability to independently use a keyboard... it takes a lot of time to develop those motor skills. Luckily, parents simply bypass them and work with their children without that support. Once they have a "voice" they often have a lot of very profound things to say. It is very much social in that respect.

I agree in this aspect. About methods of communication being very much a matter of convention or a barrier. I hope that more people get access to the kind of technology that Hawking used in the future and that the communication boards get recognised as a legitimate way to communicate. If it proves to be true, telepathy too.

Agree. Play to your strengths. I think many of us get into this mindset that they "need" to fit in... and some of us get ourselves quite distressed about the fact that no matter what they do, they are unable. OK... I understand I am not a young person anymore... but I was... and in retrospect, hindsight being 20/20... you're playing a fools game trying to be something you are not. I am social, I have co-workers... but it is limited by time of contact and the relationship. I don't have friends. I have good acquaintances... people I like being around... but I am not being invited to social events... and that's OK. With self-acceptance of who you are, with a quiet self-confidence in your abilities, with a positive attitude and sense of humor, the people around you will sense that and want to be around you... despite any "odd behavior". The right people will see right through all of that and sense who you are as a person.

Also agreed.

 

[Outdated]

For example: If you give somebody a dose of LSD and take them to a carnival, there is a good chance they will display an "autistic-like" reaction to the chaotic stimulus.

Tried and tested. Confirmed.

Although I'm also autistic.

 

[Matthias]

The key phrase is "autistic-like."

A thing can be autistic-like without being autism.

For example: If you give somebody a dose of LSD and take them to a carnival, there is a good chance they will display an "autistic-like" reaction to the chaotic stimulus.

However, an LSD trip is not autism.

I don't think it's possible to tell whether an animal is autistic. It's diagnosed based on behavior and Harlow's monkeys exhibited similar behavioral traits (social withdraw, abnormal social approach, repetitive behaviors, etc.) It wasn't merely one autistic-like reaction to a particular stimulus.

 

[TBRS1]

L

Tried and tested. Confirmed.

Although I'm also autistic.

LOL - yeah. Don't do that. It is not a good use of time .

 

[Outdated]

LOL - yeah. Don't do that. It is not a good use of time .

I had a great time when I was young, what an era to be alive in.

I grew out of that sort of thing in my 20s. I couldn't even contemplate the idea as an older man, acid makes a real mess of your body and it takes weeks to fully recover. A trip lasts around 48 hours and there's no sleeping or eating during that time, add to that the poisoning from strychnine that also results as part of the manufacturing process, not recommended for the unfit or infirm.

 

[the_tortoise]

Likewise needing a caretaker to use the toilet, shower, get food into your mouth. It's not social or subjective. Hawking would straight up die quickly if left alone on a farm without any of his devices, an able bodied person would not.

That is not strictly true about the able-bodied person surviving alone. Granted, they would likely survive longer, but how much longer depends on a lot of things - they might not actually be much better off than Stephen Hawking...depends on their mental abilities, their emotional abilities, their knowledge, and their luck (do they arrive at the farm at the beginning of a deep freeze and crazy storm? Are the sick? Do they hurt themselves fatally in the first 5 minutes?

I am not going to pretend that it isnt true that with more disability (mental or physical) comes more need for assistance to survive. Nor will I pretend there are no able minded/bodied people who could survive a very long time totally alone...in the right circumstances and with the right knowledge/skills.

But you would be amazed how helpless a lot of people are on their own - outside of rural areas more and more modern humans don't have the faintest idea how to find water, how to make a fire, how to stay warm without pre-made shelter in the wet or the cold (or cool in the heat), what is and is not safe to eat even in the nstural areas where they may have lived for 40 or 50 years ... and many would have no idea of even the most basic clues that might suggest something is poisonous vs not. (eg are other mammals like bears eating it, is it bitter? Those things guarantee nothing but our sense of taste evolved partly to tell us about nutrients snd the presence or absence of poisons)

Modern humans are incredibly interdependent, as are many wild mamallian species that would die without their group. Disability or no disability.

This is why I agree with both the social and medical models...but not totally with either -- life is complicated and at this point in human evolution there are too many variables to say that the survival of one individual human depends even mostly just on whether or not they have significsnt physical impairment ... in the actual contexts that exist and can be created.zz

So ultimately it doesnt matter if a severely dissbled person would die alone and without technology because in the modern world there is technology and there are plenty of people around to help them -- so the fact that without these things means they would die shouldnt actually have any besring on the question of whether they are suited to survival or not in real-life context...because the context of being absndoned in the wilderness or even on a fully equipped farm is not the context most people exist in. What is relevent is the question of whether or not there is any reason they should suffer or not survive in the environments they actually exist in -- and in those actual relevent contexts I personally see no reason they should die or suffer and think the social model of disability is applicable to a very significant degree.

 

[TBRS1]

I don't think it's possible to tell whether an animal is autistic. It's diagnosed based on behavior and Harlow's monkeys exhibited similar behavioral traits (social withdraw, abnormal social approach, repetitive behaviors, etc.) It wasn't merely one autistic-like reaction to a particular stimulus.

To find a nonhuman analogue, wouldn't one have to look at the physical and biochemical differences between allistic and autistic individuals, and then locate those same physical and biochemical differences in some members of a non human species?

It seems, to me, that, unless that occurs, all one can truthfully say is that behaviors are "autism-like".

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I don't agree with you that it's a social problem and not a disability. Likewise needing a caretaker to use the toilet, shower, get food into your mouth. It's not social or subjective. Hawking would straight up die quickly if left alone on a farm without any of his devices, an able bodied person would not. It's an extreme example, but there is gradation to this as well, there are plenty of ways in which bodies make it objectively hard for people to live, it can be disability, chronic illness a whole spectrum of such problems. Often even with accommodations and medication, such a person has a hard time keeping up with the rest or simply has a dreadful life with a lot of struggle or uncomfortable dependence to perform the simplest tasks.

I still don't think we are far off on this. Perhaps one of us is "compartmentalizing" the situation and the other, not. I guess I see some disabilities... as potential social issues, as described above. If you are, for whatever your reasons, unable to be mobile and communicate on your own... that, in and of itself, presents a form of social isolation. However, probably not what you were thinking of... and are in some disagreement with.

However, just for some more clarity... like I suggest, we may be talking past each other in our own ways. Could you elaborate more on your perspective and context regarding this "social problem" that you are thinking of?

My point being, even with the social issues taken out of the equation, autism is one of those chronic health conditions for a segment of the autistic population.

Agreed. I am very much on the same thoughts that autism can present with chronic health issues, both mentally and physically. I've made some very long posts on this topic.

 

[Dagan]

This is one of the only other theories that I like and consider. It's interesting because every living creature on this planet has, does and will continue to adapt (aka - evolve), just as and expressly due to the world itself constantly changing whether we like it or not.

If this theory wins out, I would hope that the overall population of the planet becomes as curious, educated, kind and selfless as I have found the majority of us to be.