Is my view on the risk of surgeries optimistic, pessimistic or realistic? Trigger Warning: Topic of death

[Magna]

I have a relative who will be undergoing a major surgery soon. I have refrained from saying this to my relative because I've learned that people often do not share my perspective on things and as such can be offended by what I say.

My view of any type of major surgery where a patient goes under general anesthesia is that the patient will either wake up from the surgery or they won't. That sounds ominous and scary, but I don't think of it that way. Of course everyone hopes they'll wake up from surgery, but to me it's actually a consolation that if I had major surgery and DIDN'T wake up from it (ie "die on the operating table") I'd never know. People often say that if/when a person dies in their sleep it's probably the most peaceful way to die; therefore the same would apply to dying under general anesthesia.

Is it weird or terrible to have such a viewpoint on this subject?

 

[Outdated]

To me the scariest part of that is your maths.

There are two options with a lottery ticket - you can win or you can lose, therefore the chances of winning are 50/50.

I agree with you that I would rather not know about my death.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Context and perspective is important here. Risk analysis is important here, as well. Most surgeons will have evaluated the situation, done their risk analysis, discussed it with the patient, and made their decisions. One, a surgeon will not be allowed to practice if they have an unacceptably high mortality rate, which I don't know the specific percentage, but understand that "unacceptably high" is still very, very low. As such, surgeons routinely do not accept patients for surgeries, like literally, every day. Any little thing, something off on a pre-operative blood test, is a cancelled surgery. Two, surgeons, in general, typically do not have the best bedside manner. They are pretty blunt about things and try not to "sugar coat" any sort of potential adverse outcomes of a surgery. They are bold and right up front, in my experience. Those cards are out on the table, per se. I am in the room when surgeons and anesthesiologists explain things to patients and their families. I have been legal witness to many informed consent forms. I transport patients pre-operatively, am in the operating rooms, I transport patients post operatively, I even will run the mechanical ventilators from time to time. I've been doing this a long, long time. Knock on wood, I've never had the experience of a patient dying on the operating table. I have had patients die of severe traumatic injuries and end-stage organ failure in the intensive care units, but not in surgery.

 

[Raggamuffin]

"...if you are healthy and having a non-emergency surgery, the risk of dying is 1 in 100,000 general anaesthetics."

Truth be told, I think state of mind has a lot to do with disease. Constant stress, depression, addiction, unresolved trauma etc. There's success and failures in surgery for a reason and I think a lot has to do with a person's state of mind before and after said procedure.

A friend of mine has suffered a lot with her mental health, and now she's having operation after operation. Struggle after struggle, and this only reinforces her poor outlook on life. A self-fulfilling prophecy as it were. She's obviously worn out by it all, but when I talk to her, you see her whole tone and outlook is an overtly negative one.

My dad has such a jaded and defeatist view on old age. He's struggled with his health for so long, and is at a point where he's so fed up and defeated by where he is - and it shows in his lack of strength, frailty, immobility, and taking over 15 pills a day. I've never remembered my dad to be in good health. He had a pacemaker fitted a few years back. His outlook didn't improve. Still pessimistic, defeatist - a fatalist. The pacemaker wiring has now failed. They don't know why. He's on so many meds he's wiped out entirely. Even sat down, doing nothing - his breathing is laboured.

In a way, I feel lucky that my 10 years of aches and pains from stress and depression never morphed into anything serious. Anything more than what doctors consider to be psychosomatic. Don't get me wrong, they're exhausting, and extremely painful at times. But I still accept it's due to stress. I do my utmost to disallow my brain to assume it's anything more than a stress response.

Things are moving in the right direction. But I am worn out. As for surgery and procedures. Well, I met a friend on Saturday and he's been taking his dad for cancer treatment. And told me all about the new conditions and issues he suffers from because of the treatments.

Chemo and radiation therapies. Much like antibiotics, it's a bit of a scorched earth approach. It takes on the disease and also degrades your healthy cells etc along with it.

I used to pester doctors all the time. Nowadays I don't bother with them at all. At the end of the day - when it's time it's time. I've seen my dad for 36 years now having operation after operation, medication after medication. He's so exhausted. I personally wish to go the opposite direction. I'd much rather be one of those people who just goes on until they end up being diagnosed with something that gives you a few months to live. Even then I think I'd only want pain medication, and to be left alone to die at home.

The medical world is a self-perpetuating cycle. Belief that youth and vigour will be replaced by frailty, immobility and disease. An inherent distrust in the bodies own ability to heal itself. I fear this can sometimes do more harm than good, and the fact there isn't enough focus on stress, trauma and lifestyle - rather than suppression with medications and putting people under the knife.

No thanks.

Anyway, that probably went a bit all over the place. But eh - just my two cents.


Ed

 

[Aspychata]

You are probably more likely to die of infection in the hospital from what l have read. Things float around sometimes that are quite resistant to antibiotics.

Surgeons are human also, they dont want their patients dying. I like the numbers game, and l like to ask the odds, what if this surgery doesn't work out, what then, repeat surge

So just go see the relative preop, and wish them the best.

 

[Judge]

I have a relative who will be undergoing a major surgery soon. I have refrained from saying this to my relative because I've learned that people often do not share my perspective on things and as such can be offended by what I say.

My view of any type of major surgery where a patient goes under general anesthesia is that the patient will either wake up from the surgery or they won't. That sounds ominous and scary, but I don't think of it that way. Of course everyone hopes they'll wake up from surgery, but to me it's actually a consolation that if I had major surgery and DIDN'T wake up from it (ie "die on the operating table") I'd never know. People often say that if/when a person dies in their sleep it's probably the most peaceful way to die; therefore the same would apply to dying under general anesthesia.

Is it weird or terrible to have such a viewpoint on this subject?

Surgical mortality and medical malpractice statistics exist no matter how they are chosen to be viewed by the public. Though you might add other considerations of perioperative mortality and long-term comas, apart from whether one lives to make it off the operating table and survives, or dies on it or expires at a later post-operative point in time.

Otherwise I see nothing wrong or unusual with anyone being concerned in the most basic sense of whether or not one makes it off the table to be made "whole" again, or not.

 

[Raggamuffin]

You are probably more likely to die of infection in the hospital from what l have read. Things float around sometimes that are quite resistant to antibiotics.

Surgeons are human also, they dont want their patients dying. I like the numbers game, and l like to ask the odds, what if this surgery doesn't work out, what then, repeat surge

So just go see the relative preop, and wish them the best.

Human skin has superbugs on it. They're everywhere. It's when your immune system is compromised that they can then cause havok. The ill and elderly in hospitals, undergoing operations etc. compromised immune system and then boom. I used to work at a company which built machines for hospital decontaminations to kill these superbugs.

Stress, depression, anxiety etc all lower immune system response. Keep that up for years and years. Well, then you can see why on average people with anxiety, depression, neurodiversity etc live a lot less than the general population. Of course you should take statistics with a pinch of salt. But when the science proves what stress etc. is capable of - it's quite easy to put 2 and 2 together.

Ed

 

[Magna]

I understand the odds are thankfully in favor of the patient surviving major surgeries. I don't think I explained my point properly. Maybe we're talking possibility vs. probability? The statistics that have been shared here point out that thankfully, a person has a very high chance of surviving major surgery. I guess that would be talking about probability.

What I was saying was that it's possible that a person can die during surgery and if that were to happen, although thankfully rare, they wouldn't know that they died and that's a good thing vs being aware of dying while you're dying. I look at it in much the same way of flying on planes: The probability that the plane will crash is thankfully extremely low. However, when a person flies on a plane ultimately one of two things will happen: They'll either live or die. The probability that they'll die is very low, perhaps even miniscule, thankfully, but ultimately there is only one of two outcomes with flying...and only one of two outcomes with major surgery.

 

[Judge]

although thankfully rare, they wouldn't know that they died and that's a good thing vs being aware of dying while you're dying.

Not necessarily, if you consider those who survived near-death-experiences. Where they visually may have a very keen observation of their own passing in real-time, rising above their body to see medical staff below in a flurry of activity in an attempt to save a life.

Though what I would consider to be far more alarming are those select cases where for whatever reason a patient on an operating table is unintentionally conscious and can sense their own pain, but unable to move at all. That I would find horrifying.

 

[Magna]

Not necessarily, if you consider those who survived near-death-experiences. Where they visually may have a very keen observation of their own passing in real-time, rising above their body to see medical staff below in a flurry of activity in an attempt to save a life.

Every instance I've ever heard of with this, the person doesn't seem to report a state of fear, horror, pain, etc. They seem to report the opposite. But who knows.

Maybe I can better sum up the point I'm intending on making with this thread as the following:

If I ever need major surgery I will feel reassured that I'm in capable hands of experienced people and as such it would be very likely that I would tolerate the surgery well. In the very remote chance that I died during surgery, I would likely not even know that I'd died and that thought also brings me a certain level of consolation.

^ I don't think having this view is morbid.

 

[Judge]

Every instance I've ever heard of with this, the person doesn't seem to report a state of fear, horror, pain, etc. They seem to report the opposite. But who knows.

Absolutely. However under such circumstances I suspect whatever one may "feel" may not be indicative of this plane of existence. Not necessarily fear, horror or pain. Perhaps what some might call a "state of grace". Then again one may also have an intense sense of bewilderment, or an inability to understand or accept that they clinically "died".

But agreed- who really knows?

That perhaps there really is some kind of consciousness (whether positive or negative) beyond the mind and body at the point of what is considered "death". Whether it is sustained or not.

I suppose some may consider to ponder such things as being morbid. Personally I just consider it more within the realm of curiosity more than anything else.

 

[Luca]

I have a phobia of surgery for this exact reason, and I avoid surgery and anesthesia unless it is the only way to solve a problem.

 

[Judge]

I have a phobia of surgery for this exact reason, and I avoid surgery and anesthesia unless it is the only way to solve a problem.

I get concerned even before things get to that point when it comes to medical personnel.

Too many too eager to either perform invasive surgery or force absurdly expensive medications down our throats.

An entire system based on corporate profits hiding behind a veil of preventative care. Plenty to be concerned about before ever even reaching that operating table. Not to mention how hasty inpatient care has become when corporate "bean-counters" have so much influence with hospital administrators.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

What I was saying was that it's possible that a person can die during surgery and if that were to happen, although thankfully rare, they wouldn't know that they died and that's a good thing vs being aware of dying while you're dying.

I would hope that is true. Having been under surgical anesthesia a few times in my life, I have to admit that there is that fleeting moment where I've kissed my wife goodbye and I'm like, "Ok, here I go." You get the anesthetic, you don't even realize you've fell unconscious, and then you're in the post-operative unit without any physical sense that you've even had a surgery. So, I am thinking that if someone were to die on the operating table, there would be no sense of it. It's been my experience there isn't even dreaming while under general anesthetics, so once you've been given the drugs, it's literally nothingness, no thoughts, no blackness.

 

[Magna]

You get the anesthetic, you don't even realize you've fell unconscious, and then you're in the post-operative unit without any physical sense that you've even had a surgery. So, I am thinking that if someone were to die on the operating table, there would be no sense of it. It's been my experience there isn't even dreaming while under general anesthetics, so once you've been given the drugs, it's literally nothingness, no thoughts, no blackness.

^ This was my same experience with a prior surgery and going under general anesthesia. I found it to be a very cool experience actually because it's the most "nothingness" I've ever experienced. I'm a light sleeper so even sleep for me isn't "nothingness". I dare say I liked it so much in that particular sense that I have zero fear of general anesthesia. It's also a cool experience like you said as far as having zero perception of time. The change from aware to nothing is more or less instant when you "go under" and then you wake up as if you "went under" just a second ago but yet you were under for the entire duration of the surgery and sometime during recovery. It's amazing when you think about it.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

I think that your analisis is correct Magna.

There are many risky activities where the perceived risk is very different to the actual risk.

Going into a surgery, driving a motorbike, crossing the street, smoking...

Its also interesting to me how fear tend to ignore maths. As an example, when I fly I see a lot of people praying and worried. Stadistics say that is way more probable to die when you travel by car, but people are not worried by cars.

I am quite aware of the risk when I enter surgery and when I drive my car alone, and when I drive my car with my daughter and wife in it. The risk changes and my way of driving changes too.

Its an interesting topic, I dont think fear is a good predictor of risk.

 

[Knower of nothing]

I think that your analisis is correct Magna.

There are many risky activities where the perceived risk is very different to the actual risk.

Going into a surgery, driving a motorbike, crossing the street, smoking...

Its also interesting to me how fear tend to ignore maths. As an example, when I fly I see a lot of people praying and worried. Stadistics say that is way more probable to die when you travel by car, but people are not worried by cars.

I am quite aware of the risk when I enter surgery and when I drive my car alone, and when I drive my car with my daughter and wife in it. The risk changes and my way of driving changes too.

Its an interesting topic, I dont think fear is a good predictor of risk.

Fear is all intuition which other than from instinct does draw from past experience and a bit of knowledge. It's just really not good at anything that would require a bit more nuance than those factors can provide.
Often the riskiest things we do are completely fearless such as living a slobby lifestyle.

 

[Progster]

I don't think having this view is morbid.

I don't, either. It's logic.
I don't think you are aware of death at the moment of it happening, in a similar way that you aren't aware of your going to sleep at the moment that happens. Of course, if you are conscious and know you are about to die, that's terrifying. But at least, if you die while unconscious during surgery, you are spared that.

 

[The Pandector]

Having been through four, I'd advise anyone to think a second and third time about going under the knife. Having said that, I've survived four out of four.

I don't get a vote in how or when I go; the Lord is going to handle that. But, after a long and difficult battle with the flesh, I hope to be as conscious as possible to feel the moment of my release from this corrupt vessel.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

I knew what you meant first time, Magna.

I have the same opinion.