Is Harry Styles really representing gender diversity and individualism?

[DuckRabbit]

Who the Sam Hill actually cares? If any of this serves a practical purpose, it'll work without our scrutiny. If it's just a rich guy peacocking around in a hoopskirt so teenagers can scream at concerns (as I suspect his whole stage persona to be--just foolishness) then it'll not matter at all in the end.

Hilarious description . That's one way of dispatching with the whole conundrum or putting it into perspective.

 

[Forest Cat]

I was just thinking about Harry mocking his masculinity. Is he really masculine? When I hear the word masculine, I think of for example people like this Dane:



I don't really think Harry has any reason to mock masculinity. He's not especially masculine, what does he know about it.

 

[Gerontius]

Hilarious description . That's one way of dispatching with the whole conundrum or putting it into perspective.

Detachment from most of this stuff is the one way that a lot of people haven't tried--It's just popular music. I'm like Ragamuffin up there, I find it deeply uncomfortable to listen to most popular music, just like Mark Twain described Wagner: pretty good music but he couldn't stand the noise it made.
I'm personally no fan of Styles, or of Schonberg either. Give me Schumann any day, or Fritz Kreisler.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Harry Styles is a bit of a "knock off" of David Bowie. I think it's all a "stage act" in order to receive some sort of "niche notoriety" and gain a few more fans within the LGBTQ community. He's got a few good songs, but he's a bit of a "copy cat" as far as I am concerned. David Bowie 1973:

 

[Fino]

He's not pushing boundaries. He's conforming.

 

[Matthias]

In short, could someone without his looks and popularity flaunt their diversity unfettered, the way Harry Styles is doing?

What diversity are you talking about? Did you mean to say perversity or some other word because there is nothing diverse about a man acting feminine.

Diversity refers to groups consisting of people from different races or genders. It's not something a person can have or flaunt. For example, a group of Asian, Caucasian, and African men and women would be an example of diversity while a group made up solely of African-American women would lack diversity.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Detachment from most of this stuff is the one way that a lot of people haven't tried--It's just popular music. I'm like Ragamuffin up there, I find it deeply uncomfortable to listen to most popular music, just like Mark Twain described Wagner: pretty good music but he couldn't stand the noise it made.
I'm personally no fan of Styles, or of Schonberg either. Give me Schumann any day, or Fritz Kreisler.

"Wagner has lovely moments but awful quarters of an hour." ~ Gioachino Rossini.

I'd agree most popular music is dross - it would have to be at the rate they churn it out, but maybe that's the process required in order to get a handful of really good ones. As we've established, there are some ghastlies among the classical composers too, but again maybe that's the make the really good stuff stand out.

Music is apparently the one art form that has the most direct access to the heart and emotions. The other art forms require a little more processing or intellectualisation - and some of them like books require a lot of processing. Which is why poets are invariably booed off talent shows before they can open their mouths, while singers and dancers are hotly anticipated and embraced. People want that immediate emotional hit, they don't want to work for it. Like children wanting dessert, not the peas and beans that are actually better for us.

There's probably as much diversity of musical tastes as there are tastes in clothes, decors, colour palettes, hair styles, cars and food. Most people can give you a reason for why they like this piece of music and not that one, but psychology disputes the extent to which we can know our own reasons for liking or not liking something. Our reason can sound plausible and socially acceptable/reasonable, but it's more likely to be a rationalisation. The real reason is likely unconscious e.g., 'this piece of music reminds me of happy, secure, comforting times at my grandparents' house when I was little'; 'that piece reminds me of posh people who look down on me so no, I don't like Beethoven'. The reasons are often linked to familial attachments, socio-economic status or situations that welcomed vs excluded us. Would be good to see some studies on these themes.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Harry Styles is a bit of a "knock off" of David Bowie. I think it's all a "stage act" in order to receive some sort of "niche notoriety" and gain a few more fans within the LGBTQ community. He's got a few good songs, but he's a bit of a "copy cat" as far as I am concerned. David Bowie 1973:

Good to see that David Bowie clip. I'd say Harry Styles is a LOT of a knock-off - not just a bit! Barely original or ground-breaking at all. "A few good songs" sums it up.

 

[DuckRabbit]

He's not pushing boundaries. He's conforming.

Yes, this sums up more pithily what I'm trying to say.

Can we talk about the way that ASC individuals are often much more ground-breaking, radical and envelope-pushing in their everyday lives than "a rich guy peacocking around in a hoopskirt so teenagers can scream at concerts" - and often doing more quiet good in the world, aiding human and planetary evolution?

 

[DuckRabbit]

What diversity are you talking about? Did you mean to say perversity or some other word because there is nothing diverse about a man acting feminine.

Diversity refers to groups consisting of people from different races or genders. It's not something a person can have or flaunt. For example, a group of Asian, Caucasian, and African men and women would be an example of diversity while a group made up solely of African-American women would lack diversity.

A good distinction that you draw, but I do think "diversity" does apply to Harry Styles, if we accept that he's jauntily 'sacrificing' his masculinity and heterosexuality and adopting the identities of feminine and/or gay in order to (1) advance his career and/or (2) make gender minorities feel accepted and represented.

But maybe this ought to be as frowned upon as white people blackening their faces, NTs playing the ASC card for no good reason, and people without actual clinical depression claiming that they are depressed? i.e., to what extent can we reinvent ourselves, and what counts as an 'authentic' identity as opposed to an adopted one?

I always felt sorry for Rachel Dolezal exposed and shamed for being a white woman pretending to be black. If males can transition to females and be called 'she' or 'ze' and females can transition into males and be called 'he' or 'ze', why shouldn't she be left to claim any identity she chooses? People will say that there are historical abuses that groups suffered which she cannot rightfully lay claim to. But can that argument not apply to people's laissez-faire treatment of gender boundaries today?

Anyway, perhaps the economic and climate change (and nuclear?) tsunamis that are heading towards us will provide a new perspective on what counts as an adversity or problem. And what about the unspeakable suffering animals go through every second of every day in the animal agriculture industry and in cages and laboratories? "Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I saw a post from someone questioning Harry Style's masculinity, saying something like 'Is he really that masculine? This is what I would consider to represent masculine:' and they posted a picture along the lines of this one:

huge bodybuilders on steroids - Google Search

I can't find this post now so I assume they deleted it, but I think it's an important aspect of the debate. What constitutes 'masculine' and 'feminine' ideals? I'm sure these will differ between cultures and change over time - 'masculine' being an exaggerated or otherwise modified version of biological male and 'feminine' being an exaggerated or otherwise modified version of biological female. With biological male and biological female manifesting in all the ways we see on a spectrum.

 

[DuckRabbit]

@Forest Cat said:
"I don't know for sure, but I think he is doing whatever is popular so he wont't lose his fans and income. If he makes his fans angry, he can wave goodbye to his career, sponsors and millions of dollars. So he doesn't really have a choice. If recreational panda hunting became modern and popular tomorrow, he would post videos of himself killing pandas all day long. I would say he is as fake as one can be. Because of the celebrity status and money. One wrong word from him and he is cancelled. And he knows that."

I think that if a person gets that aura around them whereby they earn $2 million in 2 hours, people scream when they see them and lurk outside their hotel for a sighting of them, then the leeway for 'putting a foot wrong' expands exponentially. Hence accounts of pop- and rock-stars urinating wherever they like, taking drugs, having affairs, producing children they're not around for, not paying their bills or the people who work for them, and otherwise abusing people with impunity, in that their career and public image just seems to go from strength to strength. In fact, I only know of one reason for a rockstar being cancelled and that was something truly rare and beyond the pale - initials I.W.

EDIT: Even then, I've just read: 'The court heard Watkins received "hundreds and hundreds of pages of letters" from women while in prison.'