I attended a speed dating event today

[FeatherBird]

or because women just stubbornly adamantly expect men to do that, my gut intuition tells me, womens instinct of expecting men to approach them or make a move on them is stronger than the instinct, desire, of men making a move on a woman, because if that was the case, approach anxiety would not exist.

Reminds me of this twitter post from a guy who gives dating advice for men:

"A lot of women, or just many women, cannot understand, will not understand, how someone(a guy, man, human male) cannot be desired or doesn't have any dating options, or has never dated or never been with a woman before by a certain age, unless something is seriously wrong with them. They(women) get desired and wanted, sought after, by default have dating options, always have choices, opportunities, get attention, just for existing and being a normal person, so they assume that's how it is for men, but it's not., women who think that way are completely
delusional

never truer words have been said or spoken."

In some cases (possibly many cases), there's a simple explanation for why a woman expects the man to make a move: Because she's incapable of handling rejection.

I think I might have shared the story on here of a college girl I chatted with on a different platform bragging about pushing a male friend onto his bed, then proceeding to get on top of him (and force him into sex), even though he told her to stop.

Her behavior indicates an inability to handle rejection. Rather than accept the fact he told her to stop, she convinced herself he didn't really mean it.

Yet the very same college girl had the audacity to tell me I should accept rejection.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

On that note, many a woman thinks if a man struggles romantically/sexually, there must be something severely wrong with him (because since it's practically unheard of for a woman to get no attention, it's hard for her to fathom how different it is for men)

As you said, even men with decent looks are prone to struggling.

yeah i even saw a powerful post on instagram, a guy made a post on what he thinks society should be more aware of, on the differences between men and womens lives, he said that, women often or just many times have to deal with unwanted attention from men, men often have to deal with getting no attention from anyone at all.

 

[Hypnalis]

In some cases (possibly many cases), there's a simple explanation for why a woman expects the man to make a move: Because she's incapable of handling rejection.

This is true, but I don't think it's the whole picture: there are evolutionary psychology reasons for this kind of behavior too.

Women are looking for someone to provide while their children are helpless (very rare in mammalian offspring - AFAIK it's it's only humans). So women innately test for commitment, ability to provide, generosity, etc.
They also seem to be wired to compete for the same men, but getting the best hunter isn't useful if he redirects his resources to another mate later on.

My personal theory is that the wildly asymmetric approach women take to dating (even strong independent women) is testing for the early "OCD" stage of love in their partner. Better to wait for that before intimacy.
Our species predates effective birth control by 250K+ years (and adaptations for helpless offspring a lot longer) - we're evolved for intimacy inevitably followed shortly afterwards by pregnancy. Which explains many innate behaviors that seem very strange at first glance.

Someone even more cynical than me might ask at this point if there's a place for the ability to simulate emotional states in this puzzle

Evolutionary pressures don't necessarily influence female fidelity though (humans are also unusual in females not signaling estrus), nor act against "monkey branching".

There's certainly a place for the asymmetrical operation of bonding hormones in this too, but it makes people uncomfortable. The data is easy to find if you're interested.

 

[FeatherBird]

yeah i even saw a powerful post on instagram, a guy made a post on what he thinks society should be more aware of, on the differences between men and womens lives, he said that, women often or just many times have to deal with unwanted attention from men, men often have to deal with getting no attention from anyone at all.

Yeah. Right after I made that post, I saw you shared the brilliant Instagram post.

 

[thejuice]

In some cases (possibly many cases), there's a simple explanation for why a woman expects the man to make a move: Because she's incapable of handling rejection.

I think I might have shared the story on here of a college girl I chatted with on a different platform bragging about pushing a male friend onto his bed, then proceeding to get on top of him (and force him into sex), even though he told her to stop.

Her behavior indicates an inability to handle rejection. Rather than accept the fact he told her to stop, she convinced herself he didn't really mean it.

Yet the very same college girl had the audacity to tell me I should accept rejection.

But men can't get raped /s
They've never heard of unwanted erections.

 

[thejuice]

women often... deal with unwanted attention from men, men often have to deal with getting no attention from anyone at all.

Both sides of the same coin, isn't it. One cannot exist without the other. Sexual harassment is a hot button topic while it somehow gets up the idealogue's nose when loneliness is highlighted as a man's issue. This cold shouldering is a lethal problem.

 

[FeatherBird]

But men can't get raped /s
They've never heard of unwanted erections.

Plus, another point worth mentioning:

Even if a guy finds a woman physically attractive, he might still not want sex with her, or at least not want sex with her at that exact moment (for various reasons)

 

[FeatherBird]

Both sides of the same coin, isn't it. One cannot exist without the other. Sexual harassment is a hot button topic while it somehow gets up the idealogue's nose when loneliness is highlighted as a man's issue. This cold shouldering is a lethal problem.

Sexual harassment/unwanted attention is to be expected in a world where the man making the first move is the norm (not sticking up for sexual harassment; merely stating a fact)

When the man is "supposed to" make the move the vast majority of the time, there will inevitably be many cases where a man ends up making a move on an uninterested woman (Some might say "Then don't make moves on an uninterested woman." Which is a catch 22. For the most part, you don't know if the woman's into you until you make the move)

Even if we don't become a society where a woman making the moves becomes the vast majority norm, if we so much as became a 50/50 society (in terms of which gender makes the first move), we'd notice a drastic reduction in men giving unwanted attention to a woman.

 

[FeatherBird]

But men can't get raped /s
They've never heard of unwanted erections.

Also, I'm going to point out the obvious double standard.

Imagine if a male student bragged about pushing a female classmate onto her bed (and then proceeding to force her into sex after being told to stop).

He'd be viewed as an absolute piece of excrement (and rightly so). He'd probably get jailed (and rightly so).

Yet somehow society turns the other cheek when a college girl forces a male classmate into sex (despite being told to stop)

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

@FeatherBird
This sounds like a very unnatural and stressful way to try to make connections. Good on you for finding the courage to go and for trying, but I would hazard the guess that this event is not successful for the majority of participants.

I wonder if it might feel better to find organized events and activities that are based on long term sharing of mutual interests - like a hiking club, a games group, an art club or something else that fits with your interests.

Exactly! That kind of program was just getting going when I had started dating and I feel that I would be at a disadvantage, so never considered it. Ultimately it was Sierra Club outings that really helped me. I was skilled at backpacking, skiing, and canoeing and that gave me an entree to confidently engage with women with an interest in activities. Ultimately that led to my meeting a woman who was hoping to meet a man to do outdoor activities with and we were off to a life of adventures, especially as we supported each other in learning SCUBA and Whitewater Open Canoe among other things.

 

[FeatherBird]

It just so happens I attended another speed dating event this weekend.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

This is true, but I don't think it's the whole picture: there are evolutionary psychology reasons for this kind of behavior too.

Women are looking for someone to provide while their children are helpless (very rare in mammalian offspring - AFAIK it's it's only humans). So women innately test for commitment, ability to provide, generosity, etc.
They also seem to be wired to compete for the same men, but getting the best hunter isn't useful if he redirects his resources to another mate later on.

My personal theory is that the wildly asymmetric approach women take to dating (even strong independent women) is testing for the early "OCD" stage of love in their partner. Better to wait for that before intimacy.
Our species predates effective birth control by 250K+ years (and adaptations for helpless offspring a lot longer) - we're evolved for intimacy inevitably followed shortly afterwards by pregnancy. Which explains many innate behaviors that seem very strange at first glance.

Someone even more cynical than me might ask at this point if there's a place for the ability to simulate emotional states in this puzzle

Evolutionary pressures don't necessarily influence female fidelity though (humans are also unusual in females not signaling estrus), nor act against "monkey branching".

There's certainly a place for the asymmetrical operation of bonding hormones in this too, but it makes people uncomfortable. The data is easy to find if you're interested.

Reminds me of this long written post about dating, it was in a book, and it went deep into evolutionary psychology:

Men’s “Survival Needs”: Production, Reproduction = Survival.

Women’s “Survival Needs”: being protected, being provided for, Reproduction = Survival.

So our sexual selection process—and thus our attraction process—, as in, what causes men and women to be attracted to one another in human mating, relationships, heterosexual couples, is dictated by our evolutionary survival goals and needs, whether you believe in evolution or God’s design for us or not.

And as you can see, women have more “survival goals” or needs than men do.

Men were designed to essentially to be able to produce and provide on their own, and protect themselves.

Whereas women were designed to need and depend on the man for those things. This is why women are a bit more complicated and harder to attract, seduce than men are.

Another way to put it, that is why men have to work much harder than women do in order to attract a mate.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Steelbookcollector217

I mostly agree.

But I'll add that there's more to be learned from an accurate analysis of those parts of our collective behavior that are strongly influenced by evolution.

And something else that's a significant contributor to the current mess:

In humans, and AFAIK only in humans, culture can override innate behavior patterns.
This is useful, and, for example, probably contributed to the fact that paleolithic humans managed to wipe out most of the megafauna they shared the planet with.
But it can, and has, been used to hijack peoples thought processes, and persuade them to behave in ways that, in both evolutionary and cultural terms, is extremely self-destructive.

This may be the first time this has been attempted (with considerable success) on both at once, so in that sense (though only that one) it's quite impressive /lol.

Anyway the main point is that culture can override innate, evolved behaviors. It cannot remove them though, so the innate behaviors always "show through", one way or another.

Given that we evolved in small groups, it's a safe bet that many of the cultural rules that are being so casually destroyed in these times, developed over time to achieve stability in an environment we're not evolved for, and where our innate behaviors can cause problems.

It's no surprise to me that there are people trying to convince everyone else that race is real (it isn't) and that culture is not real (it is). If you want instability, destroy the culture.

 

[FeatherBird]

or because women just stubbornly adamantly expect men to do that, my gut intuition tells me, womens instinct of expecting men to approach them or make a move on them is stronger than the instinct, desire, of men making a move on a woman, because if that was the case, approach anxiety would not exist.

Reminds me of this twitter post from a guy who gives dating advice for men:

"A lot of women, or just many women, cannot understand, will not understand, how someone(a guy, man, human male) cannot be desired or doesn't have any dating options, or has never dated or never been with a woman before by a certain age, unless something is seriously wrong with them. They(women) get desired and wanted, sought after, by default have dating options, always have choices, opportunities, get attention, just for existing and being a normal person, so they assume that's how it is for men, but it's not., women who think that way are completely
delusional

never truer words have been said or spoken."

I have a real live example to illustrate the phenomenon you mentioned (where a woman has a hard time fathoming the struggles men face romantically)

I watched a social experiment on YouTube where a male YouTuber asked out 100 girls. He was 24 and slightly above average on the looks scale.

16 of the 100 said yeah.

Anyway, here's the part of the story that ties in with your post I quoted. I informed a female coworker of the social experiment I watched on YouTube (and I mentioned the YouTuber's age as well as the fact he's slightly above average on the looks scale). I then had the female coworker guess how many girls said yeah.

She guessed 75. She was shocked to hear he only got 16 acceptances.

Could a slightly above average 24 year old woman get 75 "yeahs" if she asked out 100 guys? Absolutely.

My female coworker made the error of presuming a slightly above average 24 year old man would have the same results as a slightly above average 24 year old woman.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

I have a real live example to illustrate the phenomenon you mentioned (where a woman has a hard time fathoming the struggles men face romantically)

I watched a social experiment on YouTube where a male YouTuber asked out 100 girls. He was 24 and slightly above average on the looks scale.

16 of the 100 said yeah.

Anyway, here's the part of the story that ties in with your post I quoted. I informed a female coworker of the social experiment I watched on YouTube (and I mentioned the YouTuber's age as well as the fact he's slightly above average on the looks scale). I then had the female coworker guess how many girls said yeah.

She guessed 75. She was shocked to hear he only got 16 acceptances.

Could a slightly above average 24 year old woman get 75 "yeahs" if she asked out 100 guys? Absolutely.

My female coworker made the error of presuming a slightly above average 24 year old man would have the same results as a slightly above average 24 year old woman.

even some dating/relationship coaches will say this, they say: "men by nature are in scarcity with women, women by nature are in abundance with men".

Ever since online dating and dating apps came into existence, the evidence and proof says it all, women get hundreds or thousands of times more matches, messages, than men typically do.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

yeah, i can't help but feel very sorry for that black man with autism whom i'm in contact with, who told me he got a restraining order and was expelled from a college, labeled a stalker, i know that autism obviously doesn't help when it comes to navigating social situations, but i do strongly believe that him being born premature as a baby, also contributed to him doing badly mentally and socially, because the times i've spoken to him, i have also noticed that he sometimes is slow when it comes to understanding what is being discussed or talked about, or doesn't know the meaning of some words.

Its another reminder that, lots of people believe, even though it is a cruel mindset, premature babies are viewed as mistakes by nature by some people, nature did not intend for premature babies to survive, they are only able to survive today because of modern medicine, modern healthcare. Since he did tell me he had to be connected to an oxygen tube after birth.

 

[thejuice]

@Steelbookcollector217 College kangaroo court where the investigator is also the prosecuter, presumption of guilt assumed, no checks and balances, and education and career opportunities are destroyed on the basis of accusation alone.

 

[Tony Ramirez]

yeah, i can't help but feel very sorry for that black man with autism whom i'm in contact with, who told me he got a restraining order and was expelled from a college, labeled a stalker, i know that autism obviously doesn't help when it comes to navigating social situations, but i do strongly believe that him being born premature as a baby, also contributed to him doing badly mentally and socially, because the times i've spoken to him, i have also noticed that he sometimes is slow when it comes to understanding what is being discussed or talked about, or doesn't know the meaning of some words.

Its another reminder that, lots of people believe, even though it is a cruel mindset, premature babies are viewed as mistakes by nature by some people, nature did not intend for premature babies to survive, they are only able to survive today because of modern medicine, modern healthcare. Since he did tell me he had to be connected to an oxygen tube after birth.

It's not fair. I see many black neurotypical guys all over NYC, some look down right creepy, with some cute and attractive Caucasian “platonic female” friends.

 

[FeatherBird]

even some dating/relationship coaches will say this, they say: "men by nature are in scarcity with women, women by nature are in abundance with men".

Ever since online dating and dating apps came into existence, the evidence and proof says it all, women get hundreds or thousands of times more matches, messages, than men typically do.

Correct.

As much as I wish this weren't the case, it's a pipe dream to change it.

At the very least, however, it would be nice if the typical woman weren't so out of touch with the scarcity men (even most neurotypical men) are subjected to (my female coworker guessing the male YouTuber got 75 "yeahs" is extremely out of touch)

I must say, I was surprised the male YouTuber got 16 "yeahs" too...but for a different reason than my female coworker. I would have expected his success rate to be even lower than 16%.

I belong to another forum geared toward men learning how to do better with the ladies. Some men on there are lucky enough they have abundance (but these men are few and far between). They don't seem to understand the fact it's impossible for most men (and virtually all ASD men) to create abundance.

 

[FeatherBird]

yeah, i can't help but feel very sorry for that black man with autism whom i'm in contact with, who told me he got a restraining order and was expelled from a college, labeled a stalker, i know that autism obviously doesn't help when it comes to navigating social situations, but i do strongly believe that him being born premature as a baby, also contributed to him doing badly mentally and socially, because the times i've spoken to him, i have also noticed that he sometimes is slow when it comes to understanding what is being discussed or talked about, or doesn't know the meaning of some words.

Its another reminder that, lots of people believe, even though it is a cruel mindset, premature babies are viewed as mistakes by nature by some people, nature did not intend for premature babies to survive, they are only able to survive today because of modern medicine, modern healthcare. Since he did tell me he had to be connected to an oxygen tube after birth.

Those of us with ASD are viewed (by many) as mistakes of nature too.