Girls - are you oblivious to when someone is flirting with you?

[kintsugi]

So earlier this year, I was in this situation with a pastor where the way he showed 'care' was, according to Reddit and an older male friend of mine, was wildly inappropriate. Apparently, texting a single woman multiple times a day every day and meeting alone in his office was crossing the line. At first, I thought he was concerned because I confided in him about some pretty dark thoughts, and he wanted to make sure I was okay. But he was saying things like, "There's something special about you to me", "I care about you with all my heart", "I can't wait to get to know you better", "Talking with you makes my day", etc. Not to mention good night (once at 10 PM...), have a good day...Nothing overtly romantic, or so I thought. I started feeling weird about it, so I reached out to Reddit, and they confirmed it wasn't okay for him to say those things, especially being a married man. And my friend knew something was wrong immediately. I feel so dumb because I totally missed it for an entire month. I thought he saw me as a daughter. I don't get why people can't just say what they mean or just not do weird things like that. What's with the ulterior motives? Who can you even trust anymore? I'm glad I got out before something worse happened.

 

[8398]

I also can be oblivious. What happened to you feels like something that could have happened to me. I just believe what people say.

I happened to have indirectly experienced and knew people who've experienced, this very specific pastor thing you're describing. The subject and things related, interest me so much. For example, positions of power more often attracting people who want control. Not to make a statement about all that are pastors but pastors are a BIG one. (or general religious leaders, along with doctors, policemen) They frequently make their way into true crime stories. I am also so glad you got out. I believe there could of been a good chance of the flirting escalating or him trying to carefully manipulate in other ways. I knew about one that did exactly as your describing, he was married and took advantage of another woman, it had to be taken SO far before anyone in the church would do anything about it. (the woman going through something awful and then after the fact having to convince the other church members even though he's untouchable, despite she herself being high in the hierarchy.)The outcome was him gently being passed on to another church. So I would be soooo careful with pastors. Especially when they start to say "god told me.." as a way of justifying something that would otherwise be unacceptable. Or them pressuring to confess or confide in them. Manipulating a person share "dark thoughts" or anything super vulnerable is a classic way cult leaders, for example, create this strange... dependency that blurs the lines of what's boundaries and it's so effective at infiltrating another person's whole being that it can cause the most crazy and unbelievable things to happen. Sorry, I'm really into this subject xD

By the way I love your username.

 

[SusanLR]

I can never tell when someone is flirting or gradually working their way into what becomes a more physical action in what I think of as just friendliness.
I was just thinking about this very thing not long ago as I thought back over some of the relations I've had with people that ended in more than I was looking for.

I just have no idea their concerning actions are leading me on into more than kindness. In retrospect it is pretty easy to see. After the "friendship" ends.
At the time I think I have found someone with the same interests and compatibility.
Next thing you know they want hugs goodbye or a kiss on the cheek. Then come the phone calls or texts in the middle of the night with graphic descriptions of what they are doing and thinking about me.

It is all very innocent to start with, but it is a gradual leading me down the path.

 

[Hypnalis]

A reminder abut the mechanism for this kind if inappropriate behavior:

Members of the "Dark Triad" (see wikipedia) are far more likely to behave badly than normal people.

I don't have an exact number, but it's a lot - perhaps 100 times more frequent.

So bad behavior exists, and it's sadly fairly common. But it's not "all XY's" (or all XX's the frequencies are the same, but the behaviors are not).
It's relatively few people behaving badly "all the time".

Also @8398 's comment is certainly true:

positions of power more often attracting people who want control

The source of most of the modern confusion about this is obvious, but not open for discussion.
Sadly the advice they give is the classic "rules that punish the honest majority, but ignore the "bad" minority".

You can't constrain the habitually bad behavior of psychos with rules designed to manage the exceptional behavior of "normies".
Making performative rules for "safety theater" that don't address the real issues actually makes society more dangerous, because normal people who might otherwise help are legally discouraged from doing so.

But fortunately there's an easy way to identify and avoid a lot of psycho behavior: judge people by their actions, not their words. If someone routinely crosses boundaries, regardless of who they are, avoid them.

 

[AprilR]

I am glad you got out of that situation. Even if it was actually not romantic, people might misunderstand and talk about it. And him being a married man is a dangerous situation.

I know what you mean by people not being honest with their intentions. In the past, i always tried to be friendly to anyone, men or women. But some of the men misunderstood that and later blamed me for "leading them on" which made me very anxious and guilty.

Because of that, now i decided to no longer act friendly to men in real life, and always act reserved. Because otherwise i become paranoiac that i am leading them on

 

[Masked Man]

I find it helpful to always keep in mind that the other person almost always has an ulterior motive. Very rarely is the other person just being friendly, although it is possible. However it's helpful for me to ask of myself "what does this other person want from me?" And go from there.

 

[Aspychata]

I talk friendly to men, and it's always misconstrued as flirting. I was talking to a cashier with my boyfriend fully present and the guy just casually flirted, so l told him l am grandmother age, like get over yourself. And now l can't go back, because it progressed into the guy asking me out. European women have stated that American men are way more aggressive, and l am starting to feel that. Married men in Florida who mess around on their wives , you would be shocked. And they do it right in front of their kids.

 

[Hypnalis]

I find it helpful to always keep in mind that the other person almost always has an ulterior motive. Very rarely is the other person just being friendly, although it is possible. However it's helpful for me to ask of myself "what does this other person want from me?" And go from there.

This is going too far. Of course you should always ask "why?" ...
... but see my post above for the extreme skew in the people who actually have ulterior motives vs "normies".

Most people are reasonably open about their objectives, and their objectives and actions are normally reasonable. OTOH the Dark Triad have "unrestrained toxic selfishness", and do indeed very often have ulterior motives.

As an adult, it's necessary to be careful, and test where possible. But assuming everyone is "bad" is unjustified, and a poor strategy.

 

[AprilR]

I talk friendly to men, and it's always misconstrued as flirting. I was talking to a cashier with my boyfriend fully present and the guy just casually flirted, so l told him l am grandmother age, like get over yourself. And now l can't go back, because it progressed into the guy asking me out. European women have stated that American men are way more aggressive, and l am starting to feel that. Married men in Florida who mess around on their wives , you would be shocked. And they do it right in front of their kids.

It is the same where i live, also some men hide the fact that they are married/ rings and lead a double life. Some women also do this too. It is horrifying to me.

 

[Judge]

As a self-conscious autistic man, part of me wants to "curl up and die" at the thought that I have never intentionally flirted with women. Just not something I do, and that I always associated it with being an introvert and not particularly social for whatever reasons.

However then I remember that in some cases that was the sort of thing that seemed to draw some of my female friends to me which evolved into full-fledged relationships. Certainly not all of them, but for a select few I'm not complaining either.

Something for men to think about....

 

[honeytoast]

Yes.

It's led me to a lot of uncomfortable situations. I literally cannot be nice to anyone because apparently when I say "hey how's it going", that becomes an open invitation for someone to try and flirt with me.

 

[Judge]

Yes.

It's led me to a lot of uncomfortable situations. I literally cannot be nice to anyone because apparently when I say "hey how's it going", that becomes an open invitation for someone to try and flirt with me.

Sad, but true. With no way to estimate or even guess in real time as to what motivates someone to initiate a social interaction.

A poor state of society, but a very real consideration.

 

[Suzanne]

When a teen, yes, I was. Now, though it is the opposite. And makes me feel really uncomfortable, especially since I am married.

 

[gigi1919]

I find it helpful to always keep in mind that the other person almost always has an ulterior motive. Very rarely is the other person just being friendly, although it is possible. However it's helpful for me to ask of myself "what does this other person want from me?" And go from there.

I agree totally with that. 99% of neurotypical people when they are being friendly and in large doses always want something from you. They just have easier time to get it by gaining your trust with flattery and being friendly. And when it's a guy to a woman that's a 100% - not saying they seek abuse but here's the thing. Predators profile trusting people and can spot them by the way we move, by the way we dress, by the way we respond etc. So better, when someone is trying to become friends too much ask people here or reddit. good job looking after yourself. I once got into a car with a guy because I truly believed he wanted to give a ride in the middle of the night. he was a stranger and I was naive. then he wanted to force me to have sex. but I got away. not saying this to scare you but as an example. you got away that' important. What helped me also was watching Dr Ramani on YT. She speaks about narcissist and other mean people and there are many materials that help spot red flags.

 

[honeytoast]

Sad, but true. With no way to estimate or even guess in real time as to what motivates someone to initiate a social interaction.

A poor state of society, but a very real consideration.

I found myself in this problem multiple times due to my interests. I am in male-dominanted hobbies. I am either the only female in that group or there is only *one* other woman, but they are not as active or involved as I am. It has been frustrating that I try to make friends, but it is seen as flirting or coming on. Due to these actions, I have to become guarded because I don't want to give out the wrong intentions, but... it should not even be seen as flirting when I am having a normal conversation with a guy.

Maybe it's a cue I am doing, and it is seen as flirting? Or I'm just an approachable girl because 'I am not like the others!'

I don't know.

 

[Judge]

I found myself in this problem multiple times due to my interests. I am in male-dominanted hobbies. I am either the only female in that group or there is only *one* other woman, but they are not as active or involved as I am. It has been frustrating that I try to make friends, but it is seen as flirting or coming on. Due to these actions, I have to become guarded because I don't want to give out the wrong intentions, but... it should not even be seen as flirting when I am having a normal conversation with a guy.

Maybe it's a cue I am doing, and it is seen as flirting? Or I'm just an approachable girl because 'I am not like the others!'

I don't know.

Very interesting.

I suspect that the fact that you work in male dominated hobbies may enhance this dynamic to many men.

Not necessarily being flirtatious, but that you may be uniquely perceived as being into whatever hobbies you mean to a point that makes you that much more attractive to male patrons. A dynamic that may give an impression to some guys that yes, you are not like others.

That is something I must honestly say would attract me...and did when it came to a woman I once met in an adult photography class. Who was a much better amateur photographer than myself. We ended up as a couple for a few months.

 

[Masked Man]

This is going too far. Of course you should always ask "why?" ...
... but see my post above for the extreme skew in the people who actually have ulterior motives vs "normies".

Most people are reasonably open about their objectives, and their objectives and actions are normally reasonable. OTOH the Dark Triad have "unrestrained toxic selfishness", and do indeed very often have ulterior motives.

As an adult, it's necessary to be careful, and test where possible. But assuming everyone is "bad" is unjustified, and a poor strategy.

My mistake for not making this more clear, I am not suggesting that anyone is "bad" for having ulterior motives - I'm more suggesting that it's a human condition.

Human beings rarely do anything without expecting something in return. Almost no one is truly altruistic. People give money to charities because it makes them feel good about giving. People often give gifts to others because they want to feel good about themselves, and also often hope it will be done for them in the future. And people do this often without even being consciously aware that they are doing it.

This is what I'm meaning: people want something. When someone's behavior confuses me, I ask myself "what is it this person wants."

 

[Judge]

My mistake for not making this more clear, I am not suggesting that anyone is "bad" for having ulterior motives - I'm more suggesting that it's a human condition.

Reminds me of one of my college professors. She espoused that all human relationships are inherently political in nature given a common denominator.

That everyone ultimately seeks something from others. Though it doesn't preclude someone from being generous to a point where they expect nothing back. However that more often than not when one extends themselves to another, it is in fact transactional in nature.

That it's how strategically one may go about it that can reflect social and political ramifications. A bit harsh, but it makes sense, particularly if people employ subterfuge to attain what they want from others.

 

[Shamar]

So earlier this year, I was in this situation with a pastor where the way he showed 'care' was, according to Reddit and an older male friend of mine, was wildly inappropriate. Apparently, texting a single woman multiple times a day every day and meeting alone in his office was crossing the line. At first, I thought he was concerned because I confided in him about some pretty dark thoughts, and he wanted to make sure I was okay. But he was saying things like, "There's something special about you to me", "I care about you with all my heart", "I can't wait to get to know you better", "Talking with you makes my day", etc. Not to mention good night (once at 10 PM...), have a good day...Nothing overtly romantic, or so I thought. I started feeling weird about it, so I reached out to Reddit, and they confirmed it wasn't okay for him to say those things, especially being a married man. And my friend knew something was wrong immediately. I feel so dumb because I totally missed it for an entire month. I thought he saw me as a daughter. I don't get why people can't just say what they mean or just not do weird things like that. What's with the ulterior motives? Who can you even trust anymore? I'm glad I got out before something worse happened.

A good thing you found out about it and ended that situation, you have a great friend. I have seen men trying to manipulate women many times. It seems many times to me to be a form of greed or selfishness. Frequently the woman refuses to believe the advice to drop him.

It can also work both ways. If a woman flirts with me I will probably be oblivious to it. One time a woman was coming on to me at a party, and I had no idea until she sat on my lap and tried to suck my teeth out.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Masked Man

We may have a difference in English dialect here. For me (or more exactly, in my native variety of English) "ulterior motive" has an unambiguously negative connotation.

FWIW, here's part of the definition of "ulterior" from wiktionary, which is at least partly consistent with my usage:
Ulterior is primarily used today to refer to impure, covert, and external motives.

Given your update, what I would have said in your place is that most interactions are transactional to some degree.
Which I believe, and is consistent with my personal experience. It seems to be consistent with your view too - at worst we're not too far apart on this

This absolutely includes flirting - in both directions, and even if one party is only using it for the "attention buzz".

IRL, in my experience flirting is an asymmetrical form of communication that reflects humanity's baser nature /lol.

The main relevance of this in the context of this particular thread is to remind readers that flirting works both ways, but not towards exactly the same objectives:

Men almost exclusively flirt as a path to "informal pair-bonding", while women have about a 50/50 split between that and getting free resources (or perhaps in these strange times, it's 1/3 an attention grab, 1/3 a resource grab, and 1/3 honest pair-bonding).
If we choose to criticize one "side", we must remember to apply the "law of symmetry" to that assertion /lol.