Friends and connections

[Cassandra65]

I have absolutely no friends. And completely fine with it. Besides my wife and kids. And some family. I really do not need anyone else.

Like you. There are quite a few people that seem to like me. And take an interest in me. But I really do not feel the need to take it any further than it already is. Mostly this is with people from work. I have had friends in the past. But honostly I really do not need any friends. Too much effort. Too little reward.

You're lucky to have a wife, kids and family - I have none, so I need friends! Otherwise life is just too lonely. Often weeks go by without me speaking to anyone who knows my name.

 

[Tony Ramirez]

I have so much God damn, in my life that I'm actually afraid of people I'm so afraid of people now so terrified when I leave the house I can't even be near people I'm afraid of my parents I'm afraid of people I'm afraid to put myself out there seven damn years of doing it listen to your stupid ass advice send other people's stupid ass advice of doing things you doing things not even trying and accomplishing your tasks of meeting people your spouse your partner me busting my ass for 7 years accomplishing nothing but pain and Trauma I hate you all I'm sorry to say this but I hate you all.

 

[Hypnalis]

@scleod

A prep question: does your mask hide aspects of your personality that you could and want to share?

Masks can be changed/evolved, which makes it possible to share more of yourself while still maintaining boundaries and your preferred level of privacy.

NTs do this, though not for exactly the same reasons that we do. But they have and protect boundaries, and they keep personal secrets. They also lie a lot more than most ASDs do - IMO they hide and/or "spin" just as much as we do, but not the same things. NTs don't call it masking because their version is NT normal.

There's literally science for there being a (near-) universal process of saying things in a way that serves the speaker's preferences and intentions, and tries to make them look good.
IMO ASD masking is a repurposing of this innate mechanism (its just a theory OFC, but it's useful even if wrong).

A side comment: IRL "being vulnerable" is a thing, but its meaning is interestingly XY/XX asymmetrical.
Treat it as being "non-binary" /lol. Meaning you "open up" only what you want to share, so it's best modelled as being a continuous range rather than "all/nothing binary".

 

[scleod]

@scleod

A prep question: does your mask hide aspects of your personality that you could and want to share?

Masks can be changed/evolved, which makes it possible to share more of yourself while still maintaining boundaries and your preferred level of privacy.

NTs do this, though not for exactly the same reasons that we do. But they have and protect boundaries, and they keep personal secrets. They also lie a lot more than most ASDs do - IMO they hide and/or "spin" just as much as we do, but not the same things. NTs don't call it masking because their version is NT normal.

There's literally science for there being a (near-) universal process of saying things in a way that serves the speaker's preferences and intentions, and tries to make them look good.
IMO ASD masking is a repurposing of this innate mechanism (its just a theory OFC, but it's useful even if wrong).

A side comment: IRL "being vulnerable" is a thing, but its meaning is interestingly XY/XX asymmetrical.
Treat it as being "non-binary" /lol. Meaning you "open up" only what you want to share, so it's best modelled as being a continuous range rather than "all/nothing binary".

I do agree with you. Especially in regards to NTs being untruthful on a regular basis. There are many hidden meanings behind a construct built of fluff. Lol Along with body language that often contradicts the narrative. Accompanied by a vast range of unnecessary lies that support whatever point they are trying to get across.

I find peoples words are the least trust worthy, mainly NT. Sadly. Truthfully.

As for the prep question. I am not sure if that question was directed at me or solely as a prep "food for thought" question?

But your points are rather interesting and I do agree. The last bit I had never considered.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

If I had know probably would have gotten a more significant education, who knows PHD in physics even then it would have been at the time when physics collapsed, !980's Black Scholes equation came out unemployed physicists with too much time on their hands getting to clever almost collapsed the financial system. Did not need to be part of that.Either Way my current issues walking bother more then being on the spectrum ever did.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

The real issue with us we are natural loners, a minority. find others like ourselves and being wary find our real friends.
takes time and then time takes them.that's my experience.

 

[Hypnalis]

As for the prep question. I am not sure if that question was directed at me or solely as a prep "food for thought" question?

It's a real question intended as a kind of scoping. Polarizing it, and only looking at the limit on one side:

If you need to hide/defend everything you're currently hiding, tuning your mask would be a very different process to
what I did (and am still doing). Perhaps so different that I can't share anything useful.

 

[Judge]

Do other ND have this problem? Especially with NT? I just cant seem to find many deep meaningful connections. Especially since being diagnosed. I seem to notice how many frivolous things people are consumed by. I am a old school die hard friend. Are people not like that anymore? Thoughts?

My sentiments as well. Often wondering how much technological advancements and the ability to relocate (mass migration) have impeded our species ability and desire to socialize.

In my own case living a life within a military family did not help. Having to move around ever so many years and having to look for friends all over again also took its toll, both on myself and my NT brother.

Considerations that at times mitigate living an autistic life in a Neurotypical environment. Making it difficult to assess just how damaging our autism may be in terms of so much difficulty in interacting with others over a lifetime.

 

[Tony Ramirez]

I didn't understand anything what you said with my poor reading comprehension.

 

[Storm Hess]

Not sure how to words this. I dont struggle with people wanting to be MY friend because I am generally speaking a nice person and a great listener. But they cant be a friend TO me because it is not a safe space to let down my guard. Unmask. Open up. Be vulnerable. So I have very very limited friends. Less than a handful.

Do other ND have this problem? Especially with NT? I just cant seem to find many deep meaningful connections. Especially since being diagnosed. I seem to notice how many frivolous things people are consumed by. I am a old school die hard friend. Are people not like that anymore? Thoughts?

I've found that I'm ok on my own. I do not have any friends, but I'm ok with that. I get too exhausted interacting with others. Online interaction suits me just fine. I can choose when to interact and when to leave. That's just me though.

No one should have to mask to be accepted. I stopped. I tried to fit in, couldn't do it. This works for me and I'm happy.

 

[scleod]

It's a real question intended as a kind of scoping. Polarizing it, and only looking at the limit on one side:

If you need to hide/defend everything you're currently hiding, tuning your mask would be a very different process to
what I did (and am still doing). Perhaps so different that I can't share anything useful.

Ahhh I see. Masking for me is more of a courtesy to NTs because they are sensitive. It was a necessity for my job. Being only diagnosed a few years I had never heard the term mask used in this fashion. It had never been a thought I could have autism. To me or those (most) around me. I had just reconciled with the fact that people had a different internal person than the outward person they projected.

When I decided to take my mask off it had mixed reviews. My flat tone, emotionless look (compared to before), non eye contact, reserved presence etc. It made others feel like I was a "robot and not human". Even though that is a far assessment from the truth. But it did not live up to the NT standards nor fit in their box.

 

[Hypnalis]

My flat tone, emotionless look (compared to before), non eye contact, reserved presence etc.

That's useful experience.
But as I'm sure you figured out, a certain amount of masking is useful for us (for myself, I see it as a necessary skill, but OFC it's a personal choice and others may see it differently.

FWIW, what you bumped into is akin to the "uncanny valley" in animation.

Almost every NT checks everyone they interact with to verify that they present as "NT normal" and non-threatening. This is so common it has to be an evolved behavior.

People who don't seem "sufficiently normal" are treated with suspicion, and are often avoided as a precautionary measure. For XY's it's also a very effective "XX repulsion field", which is probably statistically unfair for ASDs, but also a good motivation to get good at masking

Speaking for myself, (but I'm not alone in this on AF):

I realized quite long ago, but later than I should have, that a lot of my standard masking was learned while I was a child and teenager, and had errors and weaknesses because it was developed reactively in response to pre-adult experiences.

Full disclosure: I'd already started tuning my masking when I realized this, but the insight helped with the rest of the tune-up.

If you were able to turn your mask on and off for your colleagues you probably don't need any input on body language or speech patterns. But there's more to it OFC: interpreting other people's communication and emotional state, and (separately) figuring out how to contextualize behaviors and words that are "culturally dependent".

My personal rule of thumb is that 50% of what every NT communicates in the context of "the human domain" is counter-factual to some degree, and 50% of that is "cultural" rather than personal BS.

My numbers might be off OFC, but the point is that you have to learn about NT norms that they may be unaware of or unable to communicate.

An example which is cross-cultural in the anglophone world is figuring out when it's appropriate to use sarcastic humor and exactly how to use it. Another which is fairly similar came up here the other day: the use of seemingly genuine questions to set up a "conversational trap.

I don't know if this is actually relevant or interesting for you, but this kind of stuff can be important for making real friendships. Not because you have to know all the "rules", but because e.g. you have to know how to avoid accidently giving offense.

 

[thejuice]

You sound exactly like me. It's extremely difficult for me to open up to anyone or let anyone in because I've been hurt in the past.
I'm also a "ride or die" friend, and I take loyalty, honor, integrity, transparency, and kindness very seriously in friendships, and I'm quick to drop people when I don't get these things. I expect my friends to treat me the way I treat them.

I've ended a lot of friendships over people continuing to pal around with people who mistreated me. Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I find that incredibly disloyal. When someone is mean to my friends, they're not a friend of mine either, that's for sure.

The close friends I do have, which aren't many, are some of the most important and most cherished people in my life and I'm deeply attached to them and love them very much. I think one of the reasons I've been hurt so much by friends in the past is that I love too hard but I think at times I also give too much benefit of the doubt. But I've gotten a lot better at shutting people out quickly when they treat me badly. People basically get one strike now, if they are deliberately mean or bully me at all, I'm out.

It's gotten harder over the years for me to make friends, and keep friends, the more serious I've gotten about setting boundaries. But if someone isn't a good friend and the relationship isn't reciprocal, there's no reason to keep that person in your life. I know I sound cynical but I've had some of the worst of the worst when it comes to toxic friends. Both NT and ND.

Sorry to hear you have the same struggles, but I'm glad someone can relate to me on this. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being too harsh or my standards are too high.

That is exactly my growth arc too..

 

[scleod]

@Hypnalis That IS in fact all quite interesting. Much I do use most in my casual interactions. This has been why people view ME as such a good friend. But I dont view OTHERS in fact the same. Maybe the biggest factor that I have lets say redacted. Is the fact that I have went through a lot of trauma in my life, more so than the average person. Which is a mask I wear. In peeling back a layer it has caused me to lose friends when I was going through a rough time.

I do agree with you. That a mask is necessary in a certain instance. As I look back, I to perfected my mask at a very young age. My mask has been so good that no one knew I was autistic for 30ish years. So Im trying to fine tune my non masked self. Or at least have them exist without coming across like a so call "robot" "non human" and many other names people deemed me to be. The words didn't bother me. The goal is not wanting to be painted as something unsavory by NT. Just simply by basic changes in expression, tone, eye contact things of that nature.

The mask became tiresome to keep up with constantly. Finding that balance is hard. But finding someone who accepts a non masked person is rare. Especially when the shift between the two are "miles" apart.

 

[Hypnalis]

Here's a calibration/terminology reference I suggest you read
FWIW I don't like the term, but it's common in ASD material so we're stuck with it:

Theory of mind - Wikipedia

It comes from studying animal abilities and "intelligence".
It would be worth 10 or 15 minutes looking at videos of crows' intelligence to get a feel for it.

Fun though: given that ASD has probably been present "forever", why are we using a term from modern research into animals? If I ever find someone capable of discussing "Critical Theory" I'll throw that at them at some point to see how they react /lol.

BTW: researchers nearly always anthropomorphisize apes so most of that content is rubbish from our perspective. But material on parrots (psittacines) and corvids, even informal fun videos, is usually good.

The simple human-centric example is the way adults control how they say things to young children (think 5 or so, but the same thing is used all the time with everyone).
You need a model of their knowledge and "conceptual substrate" so you can figure out how to "step down" the content and style of what you say.
You may have done this yourself, but not thought about the process, because it's "standard issue" in human wetware (and nearly XY/XX symmetrical which should be interesting in the "War between the Sexes", but isn't.

I used to call Theory of Mind a kind of empathy, because I think it's closely related (maybe uses the same wetware).
But I'm back to "theory of mind", hopefully temporarily, because "empathy" has been subverted and weaponized of late.

To some effect though: these days you can use the way people confuse empathy and sympathy as a "tell" /lol.

As for mask/non-mask: If you select for people (including NTs, who accept "Aaspie Deadpan" body language) I think you're cutting out a lot of people to no benefit.

On the plus side, IMO it's one of the reasons ASD's get on well with other ASDs. It's easier to communicate because the amount of counter-factual content, indirection in speech, and non-verbal signaling is so much lower, which cuts way back on the "CPU cycles" you have to dedicate to figure out or filter that stuff.

I use it as a moderately reliable indicator for 'ASD0" people - i.e. people with some of whatever we all have in common, but not necessarily enough to ever get a diagnosis.
It's not just us that does this though - normal precautions should be applied OFC.

 

[scleod]

@Hypnalis The theory of mind is an interesting topic. It does pose some difficulty for most people of the ASD community often take things at face value and believe intentions are pure (just as our own). As the theory states ASD being one of the groups having a "defect" in the theory of mind. I myself have struggled with this in the past.

The crows ability to gain knowledge through observation. Has always fascinated me. The fact that some crows can even mimic language is rather interesting as well.

ASD has definitely always been present. My Opa was never formally diagnosed. But he (passed now) grew up before second world war. He collected stamps, butterflys moths, ships in a bottle, muskets and a few other nick nacks. No one thought this was outrageous or odd while he was growing up. It was just a part of who he was. He had other "weird" quirks to him as well that "screamed" ASD (My siblings call them weird quirks I always felt a strong sense of normalcy). ASD really has only changed with the new generations. Pop culture has such an influence on everything now that is runs the way mst people think. Before it was just accepted in the sense "billy is that way".

Being friends with other people who are on the spectrum does take a lot less "battery power". I agree. Finding like minded people has been a challenged.

All of your points have been very interesting. I rather enjoy the information. I do wish I could better respond but I have a TBI that limits my capacity from significant PCS. So I apologize if my sentences have been slight askew. It is rather irritating I would normally respond more indepth.

 

[arithmetic]

Hi
I find it hard when people aren't consistent with their ideals and behaviour - especially when they pretend they are nice but then go do some horrid thing out of spite... that's my family, siblings, parents and all. Unfortunately the wider world hasn't shown me that it's any better -
Meh

 

[Lou Laurinen]

Hi
I find it hard when people aren't consistent with their ideals and behaviour - especially when they pretend they are nice but then go do some horrid thing out of spite... that's my family, siblings, parents and all. Unfortunately the wider world hasn't shown me that it's any better -
Meh

"Pretending they are nice and then doing horrid things out of spite" sums up the majority of my past friendships. Also not being consistent with their ideals and behavior... I often heard "I would never do this to someone" or "I hate when this is done to me" or "I hate when people do this to each other" - only for them to go and do that very thing.

A behavior I encountered consistently (particularly in female/female friendships) was when the friend would say something like "I hate when women tear each other down" or "Women should support women" and then they would tear me down and be unsupportive, act competitively, make comments about my appearance, etc. So they were just flat-out lying, lol. Don't know what they thought they were gaining from earning my trust only to quickly prove that they didn't deserve it. I think some people like to collect vast groups of friends just for the status or the appearance of it, but don't actually value or care about their friends.

Sorry you've also had this experience. The world can be a tough place. Makes it hard for people to earn our trust again.

 

[Hypnalis]

Don't know what they thought they were gaining from earning my trust only to quickly prove that they didn't deserve it.

I just watched a video that covers this (though as a side effect the main topic).
The ultra short version: it's possible to make a strong argument that it's an innate mating strategy.

AFAIK the best known example is the "XX hairdresser experiments": XX's sabotage other XX's they see as real mating competition i.e. a "6" in mating attractiveness will leave the 8-10's alone, sabotage 5-7s, and buff the egos of 1-5's to encourage them to aim too high and fail.

The link to your quoted comment is the uncomfortable fact (because it's partly supported by solid data) that even XX's should continuously and carefully assess the truth value of statements made by XX's.

(Hopefully you can see the broader context, because I'm not going to link the video or go into more detail).

 

[arithmetic]

Thanks @Hypnalis

Game Theory as a guide for human relationships:
There is no place for love; caring is beside the point -
the idea is to get ahead
the idea is to be the winner

"Those who can't be winners can always make sure that some others do worse than they might!
Those who evince kindness make the best victims - they frequently don't understand what is happening and nobody listens to them anyway - they're like stupid children."

The people have made this beautiful world into Hell.