Employer insurance does not cover ABA Therapy, what should I do now?

[Robin Winter]

The emphasis is mine. I suspect that 'so many here' don't see compliance as 'improvement'.

And the reason I do not is that it is all well and good perhaps for diagnosed children, but what of undiagnosed individuals of all ages? We don't have the ABA option. Perhaps we see ABA rather differently simply because if others on the spectrum can be 'trained' to be behaviorally compliant within the NT society, then we stand out as non-compliant and problematic to them even more.

Just a thought.

All of that, and because the way we function is how we are *able* to function. You don't pull a fish out of water and expect it to learn how to function better on land, you accept that it functions best in water and if you force it to be otherwise it will flop around, gasp, and cease to function. We are not sick, we're just not like NT's. Again, the purpose of training these behaviors away is so that others will be comfortable with our presence. When are we allowed to be comfortable? Why should we have to be other than what we are, innately? Training or not, eye contact will always be exhausting, pretending to be like everyone else will always be exhausting and result in meltdowns. Behavioral changes are just masking, and it's an unfair cage to be shoved into. You know, they used to discipline people who were left handed, too, forcing them to learn to be right handed, because that was what was considered to be normal. You know, after they stopped burning them for witches.

 

[VJCJ0628]

The emphasis is mine. I suspect that 'so many here' don't see compliance as 'improvement'.

And the reason I do not is that it is all well and good perhaps for diagnosed children, but what of undiagnosed individuals of all ages? We don't have the ABA option. Perhaps we see ABA rather differently simply because if others on the spectrum can be 'trained' to be behaviorally compliant within the NT society, then we stand out as non-compliant and problematic to them even more.

Just a thought.

Hey I am all for education and understanding, I now see there are different ABA methods and some good and some bad, I just don't agree it's one or the other

this is not what I am talking about here in that post, What I mean I am 45 didn't even know about Aspergers till think it was March. I have fought my way through this world.

My Father pushed me on things like eye contact I wasn't able to do it till 9 years old, I didn't feel comfortable with it till 16. But it has been very valuable this is what I am talking about

Things like my 8 year old with Aspergers had an issue a few years ago laughing when reprimanded, I knew he didn't mean it but I pushed him to get past it, He is not even uncomfortable not laughing anymore.

None of this is ABA only my 4 year old (LFA) is in ABA

I think would happen if when my clients do if they called me when something went wrong or had a problem and they were mad and I laughed.

Do you think they would be my clients anymore?

Or if I didn't make eye contact in certain situations

This is invaluable. When possible

But you guys say no, should rather everyone except,

I mean that's great in theory but it's not real life

Honestly, I am shocked, I have seen a lot of things but this blows me away, I am a bit disheartened, I came to this forum in June looking for solutions for things I have issues with still, I found none, and had thought because there were none, Now I just dont know

 

[AO1501]

Yes.

It isn't that I fail to understand how, for example, parents might strive for what they see as the best way forward for their ASD children. I have an ASD child, and I would have fought with everything if she had been diagnosed.

But she wasn't. And so I understand that the answer isn't to make us fit in, it's to educate so we don't have to, so we don't have to be the fish out of water, the 'lefties'. So that instead of us having to be like 'them', we can simply be like us.

So yes, we can train our children to be other than they are born to be, and pat ourselves on the back for it. Or we can spend that money on teaching society that being what we are is OK, and not a threat. That inside all these oddities and strangeness, we are just like them.

What I don't get is why anyone would think that a bad idea.

 

[VJCJ0628]

Yes.

It isn't that I fail to understand how, for example, parents might strive for what they see as the best way forward for their ASD children. I have an ASD child, and I would have fought with everything if she had been diagnosed.

But she wasn't. And so I understand that the answer isn't to make us fit in, it's to educate so we don't have to, so we don't have to be the fish out of water, the 'lefties'. So that instead of us having to be like 'them', we can simply be like us.

So yes, we can train our children to be other than they are born to be, and pat ourselves on the back for it. Or we can spend that money on teaching society that being what we are is OK, and not a threat. That inside all these oddities and strangeness, we are just like them.

What I don't get is why anyone would think that a bad idea.

I am not against the education, in fact, I am for it, just not in lew of improvement

Look I went through some years of some discomfort to be free of not making eye contact, but I am free for life,

My son went through about 1 and half of discomfort to have a life free of laughing at the inappropriate times

I mean totally free of it, I just dumbfounded that anyone would see that as a bad Idea

 

[John McCain]

What are you hoping that ABA will help him with? I ask because there may be other options, and maybe your insurance would cover them.

Mo sons developmental pediatrician told us, ABA would help him. Can I trust her?

 

[John McCain]

You might consider contacting this entity which in theory may assist people like you given your insurer and insurance needs. Might be worth checking it out in case there are any legal caveats you are unaware of that might otherwise make this coverage possible under your existing plan. Or they may be able to counsel you on other alternatives in the event you absolutely aren't covered.

I'm originally from Fairfax myself. If you can afford to move to Maryland that may be your best bet.

http://www.littleleaves.org/insurance-support/

We contacted little leaves initially. They told us our insurance does not cover ABA.

 

[the_tortoise]

So yes, we can train our children to be other than they are born to be, and pat ourselves on the back for it. Or we can spend that money on teaching society that being what we are is OK, and not a threat. That inside all these oddities and strangeness, we are just like them.

While society is learning, I think it is a good thing to try to teach children to do things like make eye contact. (Even after society has learned all about, and accepted, autism I think it would still be a useful skill to have, it just would be more of a bonus thing....like knowing multiple languages instead of just one.)

I just don't think teaching things like eye contact should ever come at the expense of the child's well-being, and I'm not sure that eye contact should be strictly required -- I'm more on board with leaving it as something that is only encouraged and rewarded if the child chooses to do it.

 

[the_tortoise]

Mo sons developmental pediatrician told us, ABA would help him. Can I trust her?

I am not in a position to offer an opinion because I don't know your son or his developmental pediatrician. And also because there are different kinds of ABA and different kinds of ABA therapists.

I would suggest you do a lot of reading about ABA therapy and about autism, think about what your son needs help with, and make an informed choice. Ask lots of questions. Talk to autistic people, look for those of us who have good experiences and those of us who have had bad experiences with any therapy you consider.

 

[Mary Anne]

But the other thing is I look back at my life and honestly I am in a quandy about my 8 year old as he is starting therapy now, I look back at my life and no one understood Aspergers back then, When I grew up I was pushed, Honestly If I were allowed, my limit would be so low, but because I was pushed past my comfort zone all the life I limit is much higher, I worry about my 8-year-old in therapy and I am not able to push the way my father did me, I worry about his future Because he can let his fear hold him back on everything

Thanks for sharing, I agree. Temple Grandin has repeatedly expressed that she was pushed and forced to engage, to learn, to try new jobs and experiences. She also states she “was not allowed” to engage in negative Autistic behaviors (though what her mother used might not be acceptable by today’s standards.)

Grandin states throughout her life that if she “had not been pushed” that she would never have become who she is today. She promotes the idea that children with autism learn things that can first and foremost help them find work, and be productive, despite their autism levels. This will build social skills and confidence, as well as create less dependency on an ever diminishing governmental disability welfare system. This would mean that communication styles, physical interactions, and skills sets work within the more dominating NT world would indeed be crucial.

Perhaps more people with autism will choose the ABA field and change it to make it better. People with autism can become teachers, therapists, and peer support specialists to help future autistic generations.

I also agree that everyone cannot or will not fit in, or become a Temple Grandin. But what a person of tremendous wisdom, and experience she is.

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

I understand, I didn't know there was such a difference between places, My Wife and I are very involved with our child, I for one have had some bad experiences with therapists, I didn't come into it in a place of trust so I would be immune to guilt when it comes to a therapist , But I understand those who have not had my experience to be affected by that, If I had seen that type of stuff I would not be apart of it

However I have a very good experience where I am at, My 4-year-old said I love you to me tonight for the first time, most of his speech came directly from ABA, So I have been passionate about it but now I see this is not always the case

I am a bit surprised that so many here feel it's not right to improve ourselves with things like eye contact and such when possible, though, I am trying to wrap my head around it and I just can't

That is great to hear, and would me me feel great as a parent, that something tried would seem to be helping like that, especially if the child seemed to look forward to those sessions and allowed to be mostly himself in those sessions.

This reminded me of our Autistic son who although is higher functioning, for the first this week said he would miss me if I died and then he started crying in front of my wife and I. That was a spontaneous feelingand emotion he expressed then and over and over this week when watching me throughout the days doing things, like going places with him or teaching him things.

What precipitated it was that I just said in front of my wife, with our son playing with his Ipad nearby, I needed to eat healthier and be healthier, as I was was starting to feel sick more often, with things like shoulder, eye, throat issues, tiredness and headaches. So, this older son seems to be showing more and more natural empathy, like when he wants to help by cleaning, so he says we have less to do.

I guess it is a fine line sometimes what to instruct, and what to leave alone and focus on their natural progression and abilities instead. As long as each caregiver and/or one with condition has a balanced view of both sides to the equation, I feel a more informed and correct decision can be made. I feel each household usually knows what is truely helping or not, or hurting, and can make their own decisions accordingly.

What makes it hard though is the question, "It is better overall for the one with Autism to fit in, and possibly be either more liked, or appreciated by the NTs, to develop either more artificial self esteem or higher functioning there, which could mean not being themself though and less real self esteem, or is it better to develop love and appreciation for who they are as they are, possible meaning more avoidance of others who do not understand or like such, or meaning more critique from others, and/or less future possibilities?

There seems to be no right or wrong answer I feel, as long as the decision is not coming from the medical community. It must come from either the Autistic if able, and/or the caring caregiver(s). Only they should determine things based on everything I see, and not any pressures coming from others who do not know the situation clearly or who are without open mind to the negatives too that may happen from those treatment decisions, often made earlier on.

I feel one can be happy and successful in life with any condition, if they can focus on loving themselves and their abilities, more so than feeling pressure to live or act to societal norms. In various parts of the world, eye contant and smiling are not glamorized, and often seem as rude or agressive or fake. Yes, here in the US, it is idolized and opens more doors.

Personally, I always had very bad eye contact, and have a very hard time smiling, because of severe social phobia and withdrawn personality growing up, where I feared talking, was not trained to talk, and where I was taught to keep my emotions neutral. I tried self help throughout my twenties and early thirties, not only to worry less, build self esteem and improve social skills, but to improve shyness traits.

This meant also improving eye contact, smiling when felt happy, and my posture to reflect the desired mood. I wanted to be more successful, in my relationships, and occupationally, and to have a friend or two, by doing so and making those efforts. But, it became so draining, and I felt I was not being me. I eventially decided after a few years to define my own versions of success, find another who accepted me, be myself more, and I focused on strengths I had that those others did not have.

I am not saying this is the solution for all, but it was the solution for me, as since my other self help attempts and improvements mentioned, I always then had the strength to be alone and not let others and other events define me. Whereas others could succumb to stress of not fitting in or being avoided by others, or having some limitations, I relished in it and thought to myself, this made me special and made me spend more time on more important and less superficial things.

 

[Tom]

Just in a general sense, with 17 years of potential coverage to go I would say being covered for special education programs, some of which are very expensive, by medical insurance is the primary point.

 

[VJCJ0628]

That is great to hear, and would me me feel great as a parent, that something tried would seem to be helping like that, especially if the child seemed to look forward to those sessions and allowed to be mostly himself in those sessions.

This reminded me of our Autistic son who although is higher functioning, for the first this week said he would miss me if I died and then he started crying in front of my wife and I. That was a spontaneous feelingand emotion he expressed then and over and over this week when watching me throughout the days doing things, like going places with him or teaching him things.

What precipitated it was that I just said in front of my wife, with our son playing with his Ipad nearby, I needed to eat healthier and be healthier, as I was was starting to feel sick more often, with things like shoulder, eye, throat issues, tiredness and headaches. So, this older son seems to be showing more and more natural empathy, like when he wants to help by cleaning, so he says we have less to do.

I guess it is a fine line sometimes what to instruct, and what to leave alone and focus on their natural progression and abilities instead. As long as each caregiver and/or one with condition has a balanced view of both sides to the equation, I feel a more informed and correct decision can be made. I feel each household usually knows what is truely helping or not, or hurting, and can make their own decisions accordingly.

What makes it hard though is the question, "It is better overall for the one with Autism to fit in, and possibly be either more liked, or appreciated by the NTs, to develop either more artificial self esteem or higher functioning there, which could mean not being themself though and less real self esteem, or is it better to develop love and appreciation for who they are as they are, possible meaning more avoidance of others who do not understand or like such, or meaning more critique from others, and/or less future possibilities?

There seems to be no right or wrong answer I feel, as long as the decision is not coming from the medical community. It must come from either the Autistic if able, and/or the caring caregiver(s). Only they should determine things based on everything I see, and not any pressures coming from others who do not know the situation clearly or who are without open mind to the negatives too that may happen from those treatment decisions, often made earlier on.

I feel one can be happy and successful in life with any condition, if they can focus on loving themselves and their abilities, more so than feeling pressure to live or act to societal norms. In various parts of the world, eye contant and smiling are not glamorized, and often seem as rude or agressive or fake. Yes, here in the US, it is idolized and opens more doors.

Personally, I always had very bad eye contact, and have a very hard time smiling, because of severe social phobia and withdrawn personality growing up, where I feared talking, was not trained to talk, and where I was taught to keep my emotions neutral. I tried self help throughout my twenties and early thirties, not only to worry less, build self esteem and improve social skills, but to improve shyness traits.

This meant also improving eye contact, smiling when felt happy, and my posture to reflect the desired mood. I wanted to be more successful, in my relationships, and occupationally, and to have a friend or two, by doing so and making those efforts. But, it became so draining, and I felt I was not being me. I eventially decided after a few years to define my own versions of success, find another who accepted me, be myself more, and I focused on strengths I had that those others did not have.

I am not saying this is the solution for all, but it was the solution for me, as since my other self help attempts and improvements mentioned, I always then had the strength to be alone and not let others and other events define me. Whereas others could succumb to stress of not fitting in or being avoided by others, or having some limitations, I relished in it and thought to myself, this made me special and made me spend more time on more important and less superficial things.

Thank you fo this, Although keep in mind the things I mentioned, are not as much in regard to being liked or fitting in, I would never want to hinder my Child special interest or quirks, Only things that could hinder his ability to

Myself I dropped out of school in the 8th grade, I lived in a world the jobs I have had, Things like eye contact and a firm handshake are very important, Many people I hav come accross in these interactions would not trust a person ( and mabye some of it is subconcience) that did not make eye contact or had a weak handshake, I have had friends that worked in these same industries and I have been coached. This may not be fair but its a fact. there are many things that are not fair for many people even NT's

These things served me well but to get there was not easy and took much time, I have learned not to be intimidated by strong personalities this was another very hard thing to overcome but It's not something that even effects me anymore.

For me necessity is the mother of invention, I am much happier having overcome these things because even if it were accepted I still felt unhappy over it now I am free of it. That is worth its price in gold

I was not good at smiling I was self-conscious of it, but that was to my advantage as well as I can be taken as a serious person, I now smile more but the need to be taken that way is long gone

 

[AO1501]

...I just dumbfounded that anyone would see that as a bad Idea

Yet I just (twice) explained why I see it as a bad idea. We may not agree, but that ought not prevent understanding the point being made, since the point is certainly valid.

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

Mo sons developmental pediatrician told us, ABA would help him. Can I trust her?

The answer is no, if she said it would definitely help, as it may help only some, have neutral affect on others and harm or set back some others who have tried such. Although many may see ABA as a good thing, many others see ABA as trying to train or change something that cannot be changed or should not be changed. So, I feel professionals have no business recommending only one such thing for Autism, in light there are no known specific causes or known cure, and as many on the spectrum may oppose such suggestions of a need to "fix" certain things, or any thing for that matter. Doctors need to listen and show empathy, and be free from bias or naivity when very important decisions are at stake.

Remember, most medical pediatricians and general doctors although educationally trained, usually know just a little about many things. Unless a specialist in Autism, they may know very little about Autism, resort to a typical generic recommendation, without giving other considerations much thought, and without additional research. And just importantly, they usually have zero real life experience about what Autistic and Autism families go through, from not having lived in that environment on a day-to-day, minute-by-minute basis, in all environments, and under all stressors and conditions. They will take no accountability for failed treatments. The autistic and caregivers need to follow their own beliefs or path, after getting medical input, input from others, and any research if need be.

That is why I talked of the importance of doctors showing open mindedness and no biases. Each case of those on the spectrum is different, as each therapist is different, each home situation is different, and each with Autism is different. A therapist who recommends one solution or discounts other options or viewpoints, or refused to talk of the consequences of any treatment just do not get it. Likely they are just going by usual protocol, getting monetary kickbacks of some sort, or wanting to keep hope alive by just recommending the thing that others do. If any doctor or medical provider seems to not be thorough, listen well, be open minded to mostly anything regarding treatment or treatment concerns, or work with that patient and family to determine what is best, I say they do not have the qualifications to recommend anything. They likely would take credit if the ABA made things better, but take no blame if the ABA made matters worse, saying then "medicine is an inexact science."

 

[SunnyDay16]

Thanks for sharing, I agree. Temple Grandin has repeatedly expressed that she was pushed and forced to engage, to learn, to try new jobs and experiences. She also states she “was not allowed” to engage in negative Autistic behaviors (though what her mother used might not be acceptable by today’s standards.)

Grandin states throughout her life that if she “had not been pushed” that she would never have become who she is today. She promotes the idea that children with autism learn things that can first and foremost help them find work, and be productive, despite their autism levels. This will build social skills and confidence, as well as create less dependency on an ever diminishing governmental disability welfare system. This would mean that communication styles, physical interactions, and skills sets work within the more dominating NT world would indeed be crucial.

Perhaps more people with autism will choose the ABA field and change it to make it better. People with autism can become teachers, therapists, and peer support specialists to help future autistic generations.

I also agree that everyone cannot or will not fit in, or become a Temple Grandin. But what a person of tremendous wisdom, and experience she is.

I see where Temple Grandin is coming from. NTs do dominate the world and the social protocols, so to get a job or actually "move ahead" in life you don't have much of a choice but to adapt your behavior to fit in. Yes there are laws that make discrimination against the disabled illegal, but all that means is that your employer can't say they fired you because of Asperger's. It doesn't mean that they can't fire you because your Asperger's makes it difficult for you to make eye contact with co-workers or you don't understand the little social rules.

However, I also get the flipside. There are plenty of ABA programs who try to get rid of or modify relatively harmless behavior just for the sake of the client "fitting in". They tend to only teach how the client can adapt their behavior to their surroundings without also nourishing their self-esteem and individuality. Since aspies are prone to bullies and sexual predators, this can be potentially dangerous if they aren't taught how to establish proper boundaries and self-esteem. They can fall into the trap of people pleasing, since the basis of ABA is compliance training.

Compliance training isn't a bad thing inherently, but aspies tend to take things literally so if they only receive compliance training and aren't also taught that sometimes it's okay not to comply, then they can become pushovers. They learn that they can't ever say no to anyone and that they can't assert their boundaries because that wouldn't be compliant. Many aspies already have low self-esteem and poor assertiveness as it is, so ABA would not be of help.

Compliance is something that is necessary in many situations, don't get me wrong, but what worries me about ABA is it can send the wrong messages to clients.

 

[VJCJ0628]

Most Autistic Communities that I'm a part of are strongly against ABA. It's important to listen to the people who are actually affected by a thing instead of focusing on how it benefits you personally. But that's all I will say about that...

You know what I had spent some time thinking about some of the things you have said, Mainly because you say these are the prevalent thoughts of the Aspie community and not just your opinion.

I have had a hard time because it does not make sense, You say you should not work on things like eye contact you try to improve on some aspects that may cause friction with the NT's because it's not fair.

Here is what bothers me about that, Since I have been here I have seen so many post threads, Some people (not all but a lot of posts and threads) talk about their pains, their problems with relationships, have issue getting into a relationship or can't get a job or keep a job or get a better job or can't get along with the people at there job, and many many more thing

I have felt for these people, Reason is in many ways at different times in my life I have experienced many of the same things, I have also had way my share of hard Knox, I have many bad breaks, But I have also had many my share of the good breaks because I never quit, I always pushed my limits, one thing I have learned is you can never know what you are capable of until you have to and life forces you

But here is the thing if the Comunity as you say is so against improving if it is a sin against the aspie community to work on things like eye contact or other things to get along better than how can one complain about the results of that,

And just to clarify I am not saying and I don't believe that the people who are going through this things are going through because they don't try, I am fully aware many times it's hard and sometimes impossible to change some things, I am in no way saying that I am just making a point. I mean it cant make sense that the community as a whole would feel like that

Getting back to ABA, I get that some have had some really bad experience with ABA, But to paint the picture of ABA as all bad on a thread that a parent is looking into it is horrible, I think good advice like one really need to look into it carefully and watch how they operate is good advice.

I for one don't go into mental health or even medical doctors with much trust, to begin with, I have seen many stories in every area of these besides my own experiences.

My wife and I are a very involved parent and with any of our children we would not just trust without being involved but especially so with our 4-year-old as when he started there he wasn't talking, It just so happened the night this thread started, My 4-year-old said I love you to me as he was going to bed this was the first time. he is starting to say sentences as of the last couple weeks, Also I would never have been able to potty train him without ABA. He now looks when called. So many more things

He is in all the other therapies none really do much for him at all.

Also, I have seen someone else here say ABA teaches this and that but not self-esteem and cautiousness, I do see my sons aba work on building confidence, However, Self-esteem and cautiousness is that not something the parent should be teaching?

Also, ABA is not for every child with autism, My 8-year-old has Aspergers he has some behavior issues he previously had eye contact issue and had a hard time trying not to laugh when reprimanded or uncomfortable. I would never at any point thought to bring him to ABA, He is starting some therapy with a therapist but many of the things I as his father has worked to help him past these things, However, my 4-year-old was not speaking and has much more issues that as a parent I was not getting anywhere with it.

Also you throw around the word compliance as an ominous word as does your article, I will say every time you go to work, pay your rent, pay your taxes, or if a parent listens to his parent or his teacher and just about anything one is supposed to do they are in compliance, you misuse the word

To paint the picture to a parent looking into ABA as you have as really a shame. Mostly what bothers me is you may make a parent stay away from ABA and it could have been abig difrence in a persons life you could be causeing harm, To give the advice to be cautios is good but it doesnt have that tone

As far as what you say autism is not something to be cured, I say this, 1st I didn't even know I had asperges or what it was till early this year. I have always looked at my traits as assets and deficits, Even smart NTs do this. I try and increase my assets and decrease my deficits. I don't get stuck when I can't get anywhere with a particular deficit and do the best I can with the cars I am dealt.

I will say many aspects of my Aspergers have been deficits, Many I have been able to overcome and many I have not been able to overcome. None that I overcame went easy, But many people even NTs work on themselves and do a hard thing against there current nature, Like losing weight, getting out of debt, getting drugs, alcohol or smoking and many many other things

I will also say many aspects of my Aspergers have been great assets, to name a few my hyperfocus, my ability to obtain big blocks of information, My ability to use logic over emotion when appropriate. These and other things have been great assets. I would not trade them for the world.

1 last thing I will add to your saying of the autism community being so against the idea of changing anything in order to get along in this world, If one even an NT moves to a number of countries in this world They would need to learn their customs and adapt if they want to get along with the people get a job stay at a job and so forth, its not a strange thought.

So How can what you say about woth ABA and also working on oneslef be the prevalant thought of the aspie comunity?

Also to add as you keep bringing up none of this is in lew of education to the public this should alwys be done

 

[AO1501]

....So How can what you say about woth ABA and also working on oneslef be the prevalant thought of the aspie comunity?...

I think the reasoning why so many of us regard ABA as a bad thing has already been explained to you more than once, so it seems pointless to me to try again, when each time you have repeated the same viewpoint of yours in response. Perhaps then the answer is to simply accept that there are two different views, which for any number of reasons are never going to coalesce into one.

This can best be seen in light of the constant conflict between (typically) parents of autistic children who view ABA as a good thing because it offers a promise of 'normalising' (or as you characterised, 'improving') their child, and those on the autism spectrum, who view ABA as a bad thing because 'normalising' us is not the answer, when having everyone else understand us better is a far better solution because it would apply to everyone on the spectrum, not just those who were put through ABA and ultimately benefited from it.

I must say that you raise examples which border on the offensive, when you describe compliance in regard to how an Autie has to comply with societal expectations of normality with the act of paying rent and taxes. These are not at all the same thing, not remotely. Nor is the fact that many people (which incidentally includes those on the spectrum as well as NTs) who try and improve themselves in any sense the same as the degree of conformity those with hidden disabilities, including autism, are forced into adopting in order to fit in with a society that simply neither knows, nor cares, that they are different in any meaningful way.

If you want a pretty comprehensive review of ABA (and other so-called treatments) for autism, discussed in an almost clinical, yet very readable, sense, I'd suggest you pick up a copy of Neurotribes by Steve Silberman. Amongst other things, this book thoroughly presents cogent and coherent arguments against ABA, in the context of the overall history of autism research, scientific understanding, various 'treatments' and therapies, in a way that we simply cannot really cover here. As an Aspie, I found that book rather compelling reading, and I suspect you might too, though as a parent, I would not suggest it will change your view, just perhaps help you see the issues in the broader sense.

My final point would be this: ABA might be a great idea for a number of autistic children who could benefit from it if it is done right and tailored specifically to each individual child. Sadly, not only is that not the way ABA is commonly performed, but it is only available to a small proportion of autistic children in the first place - those of families who can either afford it out of their own pocket, or who have suitable insurance coverage. But what of everybody else?

If the existence and use of ABA helps society as a whole to ignore the neuro-diverse minority in their midst, it could easily mean that the use of ABA on a small proportion of that minority may benefit the few, to the overall cost of the many.

That isn't a question of whether we should not be trying to improve ourselves, as you yourself have done (and so have many of the rest of us), it is that fundamentally, ABA is applied to children who have no choice in the matter, and if it is successful are changed into people they were not born to be. That fact cannot be conflated into the choice we may make for ourselves to try and overcome our own deficits.

 

[VJCJ0628]

I think the reasoning why so many of us regard ABA as a bad thing has already been explained to you more than once, so it seems pointless to me to try again, when each time you have repeated the same viewpoint of yours in response. Perhaps then the answer is to simply accept that there are two different views, which for any number of reasons are never going to coalesce into one.

This can best be seen in light of the constant conflict between (typically) parents of autistic children who view ABA as a good thing because it offers a promise of 'normalising' (or as you characterised, 'improving') their child, and those on the autism spectrum, who view ABA as a bad thing because 'normalising' us is not the answer, when having everyone else understand us better is a far better solution because it would apply to everyone on the spectrum, not just those who were put through ABA and ultimately benefited from it.

I must say that you raise examples which border on the offensive, when you describe compliance in regard to how an Autie has to comply with societal expectations of normality with the act of paying rent and taxes. These are not at all the same thing, not remotely. Nor is the fact that many people (which incidentally includes those on the spectrum as well as NTs) who try and improve themselves in any sense the same as the degree of conformity those with hidden disabilities, including autism, are forced into adopting in order to fit in with a society that simply neither knows, nor cares, that they are different in any meaningful way.

If you want a pretty comprehensive review of ABA (and other so-called treatments) for autism, discussed in an almost clinical, yet very readable, sense, I'd suggest you pick up a copy of Neurotribes by Steve Silberman. Amongst other things, this book thoroughly presents cogent and coherent arguments against ABA, in the context of the overall history of autism research, scientific understanding, various 'treatments' and therapies, in a way that we simply cannot really cover here. As an Aspie, I found that book rather compelling reading, and I suspect you might too, though as a parent, I would not suggest it will change your view, just perhaps help you see the issues in the broader sense.

My final point would be this: ABA might be a great idea for a number of autistic children who could benefit from it if it is done right and tailored specifically to each individual child. Sadly, not only is that not the way ABA is commonly performed, but it is only available to a small proportion of autistic children in the first place - those of families who can either afford it out of their own pocket, or who have suitable insurance coverage. But what of everybody else?

If the existence and use of ABA helps society as a whole to ignore the neuro-diverse minority in their midst, it could easily mean that the use of ABA on a small proportion of that minority may benefit the few, to the overall cost of the many.

That isn't a question of whether we should not be trying to improve ourselves, as you yourself have done (and so have many of the rest of us), it is that fundamentally, ABA is applied to children who have no choice in the matter, and if it is successful are changed into people they were not born to be. That fact cannot be conflated into the choice we may make for ourselves to try and overcome our own deficits.

What I don't understand and what is very frustrating is you keep making as its an either or like as if you can't have improvement and have educated the public as if they are in conflict when in fact it is not.

Also, how can one just complaining about not being able to do things or have issues with things because of some of the symptoms of autism but yet at the same time say its wrong to want to change some of those things when possible as if it were a disservice to the aspie community as a whole, Becuase that is a conflict unlike change and education of the publis is not a conflict.

Again in case you say it I will say it again I do realize they are many things that can not be changed and each person ability will be different

"Autie has to comply with societal expectations of normality with the act of "paying rent and taxes"

No, I said the word comply used in ABA it has never come once across to comply with the world or society the word comly as I have seen them use is simply to follow direction in the lesson, not in society

Also to add and reiterate, I would never consider sending a child like my 8-year-old who could understand language well to ABA, Only because my 4 year old has that type where other methods don't work because of language and lack of motivation in combination

Mabye possibly that is where were are having conflict as mabye you mean ABA in ragards to those who can speak and understand languedge and can learn from other methods doing ABA, I have never thought of ABA for that purpse until this thread I didnt think it was used there, I only use for my 4 year old, becuase he does have the ability to speak but just didt he had full vocabulary but didnt use it, Speach didnt help ot didnt help school program didnt help but ABA did miracles and also helped teaching things like potty trianing which I thought wouold be impossible without languedge.

I wouldnt think ABA would be needed if there were not a languedge barrier in the first place

 

[AO1501]

Actually, no I don't make the point that it is not possible to have improvement and education, just one or the other. That isn't the point at all.

The point is this:
1) ABA is not 'improvement'. It is enforcing conformity.
2) The child subjected to it is not able to refuse, it is enforced.
3) Only a small proportion of autistic children have any opportunity to benefit at all - even assuming that ABA benefits anyone, thus everyone else is disadvantaged.
4) ABA teaches that autistic behaviour is bad, and NT behaviour is good. This is an appalling message for anyone to teach, let alone learn.
5) The use of ABA teaches NTs that it is perfectly OK to disdain or at best ignore autism, because it can be 'cured'.
6) ABA is a form of coercion. Forcible coercion in some cases.

And that's me done. Again, you are repeating your same arguments each time and ignoring what is actually being said in reply. There seems no point in continuing because this isn't a discussion, it's a cycle of repeating statements. We are simply not going to agree, and the very fact that you describe ABA as a way to 'improve' someone is evidence of that.

I mean no disrespect to you or your opinion, I just don't agree.

 

[VJCJ0628]

Actually, no I don't make the point that it is not possible to have improvement and education, just one or the other. That isn't the point at all.

The point is this:
1) ABA is not 'improvement'. It is enforcing conformity.
2) The child subjected to it is not able to refuse, it is enforced.
3) Only a small proportion of autistic children have any opportunity to benefit at all - even assuming that ABA benefits anyone, thus everyone else is disadvantaged.
4) ABA teaches that autistic behaviour is bad, and NT behaviour is good. This is an appalling message for anyone to teach, let alone learn.
5) The use of ABA teaches NTs that it is perfectly OK to disdain or at best ignore autism, because it can be 'cured'.
6) ABA is a form of coercion. Forcible coercion in some cases.

And that's me done. Again, you are repeating your same arguments each time and ignoring what is actually being said in reply. There seems no point in continuing because this isn't a discussion, it's a cycle of repeating statements. We are simply not going to agree, and the very fact that you describe ABA as a way to 'improve' someone is evidence of that.

I mean no disrespect to you or your opinion, I just don't agree.

I am not ignoring but my wife goes in and watched and is a part of I have been in a watch, I don't see what you say actually happening in the lesson at all I don't see them teaching as you say at all it is not happening at all where I go

I never ever ever ever seen them do anything that has a statement or message that autism is bad and NT is good in the slightest.

Giving parent advise to be involved and watch for these things and stay away from a place that does this is a good thing, as in any business that has such high money making income. I have had several really bad experiences with psychologist's and school counselors when I was young horrible, I have major trust issue's to this day over it, Does that mean all are bad? Not at all

But to say that is what ABA is is just wrong and untrue

And a good place can do amazing things, in fact, I highly suspect his therapist actually has Aspergers

In fact I see more compassion & understanding for his autism in ABA then all his other therapies

In fact, the only one that did come across as autism was bad nt was good was his first OT person and I fired her real quick. I don't play

Also, I have never seen anyone say autism can be cured the opposite is true, to say autism can be cured is insane.

ABA has shown great improvement in my son, the only thing that has

I don't know what you mean by enforced I have not seen any mean or harsh tactics used if that what you mean. Also what they do is if something they try my son doesn't take to or is struggling with they go on to something else and come back to it when he is more capable If and when that happens

3 depends on where you live or the insurance you have but also is that not true about a great many things in life, I don't own a house, Owning a house is another thing that is not available to everyone it is what it is. I could if I didn't pay so much for ABA, But its worth it because of the results, I would love to see it covered by all insurance, Either way, that is not a problem with ABA its a problem with state laws and Insurance companies not wanting to cover expensive treatments. And the special interest and money that goes along with

Does that answer all your points?

Oh I missed on you said I describe ABA as a way to improve someone, I want to clarify because there became a side subject to working on things like eye contact and other things in general, This because a side subject outside of just ABA, Yes ABA helped with my 4-year-old, but that's it, the discussion about eye contact and like my 8-year-old with laughing habit when uncomfortable was about improving ourselves in the case of me and my 8 years old this was outside of ABA but it was mentioned as that is does a disservice to Autistic community because it bends to the NT community and that is what I was disputing in my post to the other person who talks as if its not her opinion, but the autistic community, that is what that post was about