Electric cars...

[Neonatal RRT]

It has been very slippery here lately, rain that turns to ice the moment it hits the ground. So there has been several accidents because of the regenerative braking system. I was unclear, it wasn't the newspapers that warned people, it was the authorities using the newspapers to reach people. It was a warning from the department of vehicles and roads, in the newspaper.

But anyway, I just don't want a car that decides on its own when to break or do things. I learned to drive in normal cars and I have always driven cars that doesn't decide on its own what to do. And I have always driven stick shifts and raced cars too. So a car that doesn't do what I expect it to do or behaves odd is dangerous. I also don't want a car that has to install updates. It's maddening enough on my computer, I don't need that stress in my car. No internet or updates in my car. My favorite car is an old pickup with almost no electronics. It always works, never needs an update, no problems with it. You have to shoot it to make it stop working.

To each their own, I guess. For myself,...been there, done that, and I've moved on past noisy, greasy, mechanical things,...at least for a daily driver. I've probably just gotten spoiled in my old age.

 

[Shevek]

There's a warning about electric cars in the newspaper here today. Some cars will brake a little on their own when you lift your foot off the gas pedal, to charge the battery. They charge it with the brake effect. But if this happens in a turn on an ice covered Scandinavian road you'll most likely go into the ditch. Which has happened to several people lately. So they are actually warning people and telling them to turn off that brake charging thing.

I really do not like cars that do things like that on their own. When I drive, I want full control over everything.

That's just something that winter drivers should know, like shifting an automatic transmission into neutral when the back wheels pushing the front wheels is problematic.

 

[Shevek]

I too am used to relying on my own skills with marginal traction, and worry about automatic systems interfering badly, like the autopilot that crashed the Boeing 737 Max aircraft. However, I do admire the instant reflexes of a robot. If I'm busy driving in challenging conditions, I have fast reflexes, but if I'm just droning along not expecting trouble, it can take a few beats to respond. 2/3 of drivers don't even get it together to brake before an accident, let alone steer creatively.
There is also the general legal problem that if a new system reduces accidents overall, but has different types of accidents, it will get blamed for those. There was a big taxi company in Belgium that replaced half their fleet each year, so they were able to generate statistics on ABS vs manual braking systems. With ABS, the drivers went a little bit faster, and wound up with the same accident rate.

 

[Nitro]

^ Greatest problem with Lucas was the companies they supplied not wanting to pay extra for better quality equipment. Still, at least Lucas were really good at supplying spares.

View attachment 92970

Lucas, the prince of darkness

 

[Duncan74]

A few years ago I was at a work conference where a senior google exec was presenting. As part of the presentation he mentioned that they were intending to start putting self driving cars on roads. A question from the audience was what level of certainty / development would they need to be at before putting them on the roads. The response was really interesting/fair. "Driverless cars don't need to be perfect, they just need to be better than humans to be beneficial."

Which has great logic, albeit does rely on a legislative/regulatory system like NZ (and not California) to commercially make it happen.

Bac to the EV topic. I've just done a 5 day tour of NZ South Island. Lots of driving. I did this in a Deisel Prado 4x4. However, the interesting thing is we passed way more EV points (all signed and on-route) than petrol stations, and today would have been right at the limit of a long range EV battery (480km), but was absolutely at the limit of my energy and capacity to drive (6 hours). And by chance, at each of the places we stopped for 30+mins to leg stretch, eat, there was an available charge point.

And so whilst I'd had the same range skepticism of others, in reality the vehicles are very capable. In fairness my old petrol Pajero/shogun would only do about 380km on a full tank.... And my Motorbike has a range of about 400km.

And so it is really now just a question of when I swap over our cars to electric, not if. That being said, despite being in the position where I could buy a new long range EV, (or two) in reality we have a 10 year old truck (bought almost new) and and 15 year old VW golf, and I just can't justify the cost to myself. In 2 years I think there will be a levelling off of battery technology (blade batteries, agreed charge standards) and so assuming they both carry on running I can't see us changing imminently. But if one gets stolen/totaled, then it's almost certain the replacement would be BEV.

 

[Progster]

A family member (UK) recently got an electric car. She says it saves her a lot of money on day to day local activities such as the school run, supermarket trips, etc. Technology has come a long way, but still has some to go as far as long distance trips are concerned. Also, very expensive to buy, though I understand that some countries such as Romania offer sudsidies to encourage more people to buy them.

 

[Forest Cat]

Also, very expensive to buy, though I understand that some countries such as Romania offer sudsidies to encourage more people to buy them.

They did that here, subsidies for electric cars. And electric cars were exempt from some annual taxes and didn't have to pay in toll booths. And they could drive in bus lanes. So for a while people were buying electric cars like crazy. It sold like hot bread. Teslas everywhere, you couldn't throw a stone and not hit a Tesla. But it was all a trick, like it always is, when a lot of people had bought electric cars, the authorities suddenly went back to charging taxes and a road fee and having to pay in toll booths. So a lot of people feel like they were tricked. Then it got worse, they raised the price of electricity so much that a while ago it was actually cheaper to fill up a diesel car than to charge an electric car. Lately the market for electric cars have gone downhill here, a lot of used electric cars for sale and people are buying normal cars.

 

[Nitro]

They did that here, subsidies for electric cars. And electric cars were exempt from some annual taxes and didn't have to pay in toll booths. And they could drive in bus lanes. So for a while people were buying electric cars like crazy. It sold like hot bread. Teslas everywhere, you couldn't throw a stone and not hit a Tesla. But it was all a trick, like it always is, when a lot of people had bought electric cars, the authorities suddenly went back to charging taxes and a road fee and having to pay in toll booths. So a lot of people feel like they were tricked. Then it got worse, they raised the price of electricity so much that a while ago it was actually cheaper to fill up a diesel car than to charge an electric car. Lately the market for electric cars have gone downhill here, a lot of used electric cars for sale and people are buying normal cars.

Yeah, those subsidies are crap in my honest opinion.

Why do I have to pay for someone else's stuff?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

They did that here, subsidies for electric cars. And electric cars were exempt from some taxes and didn't have to pay in toll booths. And they could drive in buslanes. So for a while people were buying electric cars like crazy. Teslas everywhere, you couldn't throw a stone and not hit a Tesla. But it was all a trick, like it always is, when a lot of people had bought electrics cars, the authorities suddenly went back to charging taxes and having to pay in toll booths. So a lot of people feel like they were tricked. Then it got worse, they raised the price of electricity so much that a while ago it was actually cheaper to fill up a diesel car than to charge an electric car. Lately the market for electric cars have gone downhill here, a lot of used electric cars for sale and people are buying normal cars.

I have been aware of this scenario for a while. I always tell people,..."Produce your own electricity and start doing it now." Scandinavian countries, unfortunately, may not be in a position to do a significant amount of "point-of-use" residential solar and wind. For most of the US,...we are. I have been following what is happening in Europe with regards to this,...considering they are about 5-10 years ahead of us with regards to renewable energy and electric cars. As predicted, the rules of "supply and demand" have resulted in increased prices per kWh as demand increased,...furthermore, some areas of Germany have limited the rooftop residential solar to 3kWh per home,...and most homes with an EV will need closer to 8kWh or more. I am waiting for some utility companies in the US to mimic this,...raise rates and limit residential solar. Most of our "road and infrastructure" taxes are based heavily on gasoline and diesel sales,...at some critical point there will be a need to tax the electricity for the same purposes.

I understand these trends as I have been living it for the past 6 years,...I have prepared myself. If anyone is in position to minimize or eliminate the need for using electrical utility companies and/or purchasing gas/diesel,...do it. If anyone is in a position for building or purchasing a "net zero" or "net positive" homes,...do it. Of course, the first response everyone has is,..."It's too expensive." My response is,..."No,...it's FAR more expensive NOT doing it." When you get out the calculator and start looking at your monthly budgets,...and start asking yourself things like "What is the TOTAL cost of this vehicle, the solar, the geothermal, whatever it is,...?" For myself, even though the payments are more expensive, the total cost was significantly less and we are saving a lot of money. Now,...I understand that this situation will not benefit everyone,...but for a lot of people it will.

 

[Forest Cat]

I have been aware of this scenario for a while. I always tell people,..."Produce your own electricity and start doing it now." Scandinavian countries, unfortunately, may not be in a position to do a significant amount of "point-of-use" residential solar and wind.

We have had hydropower here for a long time, cheap, green and reliable. But other countries in Europe have painted themselves into a corner. Sweden for example is shutting down their electricity production and hoping they will get enough power from wind. They don't so they have to import electricity from us. It's just chaos all over Europe now, they are shutting down electricity production without first having a good alternative in place. The German railroad company, Deutsche Bahn, had to make a deal with Norway and they are going to buy electricity from us for the next 10 years. It's just crazy. It doesn't make much sense.

 

[Forest Cat]

If anyone is in a position for building or purchasing a "net zero" or "net positive" homes,...do it. Of course, the first response everyone has is,..."It's too expensive." My response is,..."No,...it's FAR more expensive NOT doing it."

I think part of the problem is that people just can't afford it. Even if they save money later. Building or upgrading a home is expensive, cost of building supplies are up 60%, most people have to get a loan from a bank and the interest rates are going up every other month now. Getting a loan now is risky business. So it's difficult.

 

[Forest Cat]

Yeah, those subsidies are crap in my honest opinion.

Why do I have to pay for someone else's stuff?

Yeah there has been some murmuring here about that. Tesla owners had a tendency to be a little cocky, showing off their brand new shiny Teslas and bragging about saving the world. And other people then pointed out that "I paid for your Tesla with my taxes, dagnammit!"

 

[Neonatal RRT]

We have had hydropower here for a long time, cheap, green and reliable. But other countries in Europe have painted themselves into a corner. Sweden for example is shutting down their electricity production and hoping they will get enough power from wind. They don't so they have to import electricity from us. It's just chaos all over Europe now, they are shutting down electricity production without first having a good alternative in place. The German railroad company, Deutsche Bahn, had to make a deal with Norway and they are going to buy electricity from us for the next 10 years. It's just crazy. It doesn't make much sense.

Yea,...that doesn't make much sense. Better to have some excess from a newly-built power source first,...then,...begin slowing down and then shutting down the older source. You can't leave "gaps" like that,...very irresponsible.

Another example in my area in Michigan. We have this oil and gas pipeline that runs from Canada, south into the upper peninsula of Michigan, then goes under the Straits of Mackinaw, into the lower peninsula of Michigan. It supplies 10's of thousands of customers. Well, it's been there for decades, and every now and then a huge cargo freighter might hit the pipeline with an anchor or whatever,...a very real risk of a "biblical" type natural disaster in the Great Lakes. The Great Lakes are the largest reservoir of fresh water in North America. Legitimately, there has been this huge political push to have this Canadian company shut down that old pipeline. Of course,...the question is,..."and replace it with what?" You have to have all of those customers hooked up to a new power source first. This has been going on for the past 5-6 years,...and still nothing has been done except to have the pipeline covered and reinforced under the water. These idiots STILL do not have an alternate plan for these customers.

It's things like this that give me little to no trust in "big electric" and "big oil". At one time we used to have clean drinking water supplying our homes,...well, it's "clean",...but full of trace chemicals you wouldn't water your plants with or feed your pets with. My next home will use solar condensers for pure drinking water,...I don't trust the utilities anymore.

 

[Judge]

The Tesla ( Panasonic's) battery factory is just a few miles down the freeway past Mustang Ranch.

If that factory were to ever catch fire...it could be horrendous. Especially if the winds blew westward rather than eastward. Dry desert and cheat grass all the way into Sparks and Metropolitan Reno.

Needless to say, Teslas are as common as dirt here.

 

[Forest Cat]

Yea,...that doesn't make much sense. Better to have some excess from a newly-built power source first,...then,...begin slowing down and then shutting down the older source. You can't leave "gaps" like that,...very irresponsible.

Another example in my area in Michigan. We have this oil and gas pipeline that runs from Canada, south into the upper peninsula of Michigan, then goes under the Straits of Mackinaw, into the lower peninsula of Michigan. It supplies 10's of thousands of customers. Well, it's been there for decades, and every now and then a huge cargo freighter might hit the pipeline with an anchor or whatever,...a very real risk of a "biblical" type natural disaster in the Great Lakes. The Great Lakes are the largest reservoir of fresh water in North America. Legitimately, there has been this huge political push to have this Canadian company shut down that old pipeline. Of course,...the question is,..."and replace it with what?" You have to have all of those customers hooked up to a new power source first. This has been going on for the past 5-6 years,...and still nothing has been done except to have the pipeline covered and reinforced under the water. These idiots STILL do not have an alternate plan for these customers.

It's things like this that give me little to no trust in "big electric" and "big oil". At one time we used to have clean drinking water supplying our homes,...well, it's "clean",...but full of trace chemicals you wouldn't water your plants with or feed your pets with. My next home will use solar condensers for pure drinking water,...I don't trust the utilities anymore.

One ironic thing about wind power here, our politicians are building windmills here too and we need power the most in December - February. We have to heat our homes and that's the coldest time. That also happens to be the time of year with the least wind... We can have two straight weeks with no wind.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Yeah there has been some murmuring here about that. Tesla owners had a tendency to be a little cocky, showing off their brand new shiny Teslas and bragging about saving the world. And other people then pointed out that "I paid for your Tesla with my taxes, dagnammit!"

In the US, Teslas haven't been eligible for tax rebates in several years. They mostly benefit the other auto makers,...but I see your point. Elon Musk has vehemently spoken out against this latest "Inflation Reduction Act" for many reasons,...even though he may ultimately benefit from it. I think he sees the "bigger picture" and understands we need to be more fiscally responsible and not spend money we don't have.

I tend to be a financially conservative person, myself, and I am of the mindset that if people want something bad enough, and if its at the right price point for them, they will purchase it. You shouldn't be "playing favorites" in the global market place by giving "incentives" that favor one company over another. Let competition sort out the winners and losers.

 

[Forest Cat]

The Tesla ( Panasonic's) battery factory is just a few miles down the freeway past Mustang Ranch.

When you say Mustang Ranch, I imagine it's a glorious place where Mustangs roam free in the grass on the ranch in the countryside. Where seldom is heard, a discouraging word and the skies are not cloudy all day.

 

[Judge]

When you say Mustang Ranch, I imagine it's a glorious place where Mustangs roam free in the grass on the ranch in the countryside.

View attachment 93013

LOL.....Not exactly. But then I suspect you know exactly what it is.

Going east on the freeway I've driven past it many times...but have never been inside. A few miles beyond Mustang and there's a huge industrial park in the middle of nowhere where the battery factory is located.

 

[Outdated]

The German railroad company, Deutsche Bahn, had to make a deal with Norway and they are going to buy electricity from us for the next 10 years. It's just crazy. It doesn't make much sense.

They only need a few more years really. The engines are already a reality but the pollution controls for them are not:

Fortescue & Deutsche Bahn to develop ammonia-powered trains in Germany - Ammonia Energy Association

Deutsche Bahn and Fortescue Future Industries will collaborate to modify existing locomotive diesel engines to run on hydrogen & ammonia fuel. The pair will utilise Ammonigy’s ammonia cracking technology in their design, with a prototype, bench-top engine currently undergoing testing in Germany...

www.ammoniaenergy.org

 

[MildredHubble]

Electric cars are a nice idea. Unfortunately the infrastructure isn't there in the UK. Kilo for kilo the energy density of a lithium chemistry battery doesn't compare to gasoline.

The technology isn't mature enough to be a no brainer decision. I have my doubts it will ever be, unless there is a massive paradigm change regarding batteries.

The damage caused, not just to the environment, but also to the communities that mine the cobalt is simply undeniable.

We should have done better. There simply wasn't the motivation to produce a viable alternative to ICE engines until recently. Electric cars are going to price a huge amount of our car dependant society off the road. The social implications are pretty huge. Here in the UK the public transport systems in most places are utter rubbish and would fall apart rapidly if the majority of people used it.

This is the result of capitalist greed and selfishness. Rich people will carry on regardless.

Electric cars will be superceded before long by alternative fuel or fuel cell vehicles. They are a stop gap technology in my opinion.