Does Neuroscience Obviate Free Will?

[Joshua the Writer]

A lot of it's because most of the population get by on a vocabulary of about 400 words. I can't help having a bigger one, I was born that way and spent my childhood stuffing me head full of data and keep up to date as far as possible. It's not done to impress, but for precision: if you don't understand, go google it.

Or you can just simplify your wording instead of making others do all the work.

 

[Nervous Rex]

I'm saying its weird because some of us don't like that writing style. Just use familiar words for goodness sake.

You will find a wide variety of writing styles here. Some people like like things short and sweet. Others are either inherently or preternaturally predisposed to sesquipedalianisms. I wouldn't presume to limit everyone's writing style to suit my tastes. Instead, I read what suits me.

I find that simple everyday speech is appropriate for simple everyday topics, but topics relating to a profession or specialization (such as technical topics, or this philosophical thread), require a custom vocabulary. Those well-versed in the topic aren't using big words just to sound smort - they're using the words of the trade for precision (to finely pinpoint some nuance of an idea), and for convenience (to avoid a longer description that would be required to encapsulate an advanced concept in simple words). When I run across one of those that I don't understand, I google it and read the layman's description. Or sometimes I just decide I'm not that interested in diving that deep into the topic, and I ignore the thread.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

You will find a wide variety of writing styles here. Some people like like things short and sweet. Others are either inherently or preternaturally predisposed to sesquipedalianisms. I wouldn't presume to limit everyone's writing style to suit my tastes. Instead, I read what suits me.

I find that simple everyday speech is appropriate for simple everyday topics, but topics relating to a profession or specialization (such as technical topics, or this philosophical thread), require a custom vocabulary. Those well-versed in the topic aren't using big words just to sound smort - they're using the words of the trade for precision (to finely pinpoint some nuance of an idea), and for convenience (to avoid a longer description that would be required to encapsulate an advanced concept in simple words). When I run across one of those that I don't understand, I google it and read the layman's description. Or sometimes I just decide I'm not that interested in diving that deep into the topic, and I ignore the thread.

Oh, okay.

 

[Rahere]

Or you can just simplify your wording instead of making others do all the work.

No. If you're to lazy to think, don't follow me. I say what I mean, as precisely as I can, and I mean what I say. It can be like living with A Short History of Time, but that's life. You may be a demigod, but I deal with the real thing on occasion, so I'm not impressed.

I simplify as far as possible, and as that's not good enough for you, clear off.

 

[Rahere]

You will find a wide variety of writing styles here. Some people like like things short and sweet. Others are either inherently or preternaturally predisposed to sesquipedalianisms. I wouldn't presume to limit everyone's writing style to suit my tastes. Instead, I read what suits me.

I find that simple everyday speech is appropriate for simple everyday topics, but topics relating to a profession or specialization (such as technical topics, or this philosophical thread), require a custom vocabulary. Those well-versed in the topic aren't using big words just to sound smort - they're using the words of the trade for precision (to finely pinpoint some nuance of an idea), and for convenience (to avoid a longer description that would be required to encapsulate an advanced concept in simple words). When I run across one of those that I don't understand, I google it and read the layman's description. Or sometimes I just decide I'm not that interested in diving that deep into the topic, and I ignore the thread.

Just so. I'm not doing it to sound big, but you can guess my opinion of most social media. Soma.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

No. If you're to lazy to think, don't follow me. I say what I mean, as precisely as I can, and I mean what I say. It can be like living with A Short History of Time, but that's life. You may be a demigod, but I deal with the real thing on occasion, so I'm not impressed.

I simplify as far as possible, and as that's not good enough for you, clear off.

Who said anything about demigods?

 

[Rahere]

Whenever I see a relative like over or under, or comparatives, I ask myself whether the person doing the judging isn't being a tad egotistic. You can call me what you like, but you'd better be able to back your accusation up with evidence and the psychological profession has been unable to do so.
I don't dispute I do stuff others can't. That doesn't give them the right to suggest I'm intellectually challenged, when most of it's a two-way street, and it's them with the issues. I'll repeat my computer analogy. Two identical computers have different operating systems, one which can only handle 10% of it's momory, the other with a more up-to-date operating system which can handle 100% or close to it. Which is disordered? The NT running on 10% of his brainpower or me, tested by Harley Street at near 100%.
I didn't ask for their input, they imposed it on me, twice. They've behaved like bullies, in fact one body, the Tavistock Clinic, just had its authority removed by the UK High Court for exactly such behaviour in adifferent domain, gender reassignment. Given their horrendous dereliction of medical ethics towards me, I cheered when that happened.

 

[Finder]

I'm saying its weird because some of us don't like that writing style. Just use familiar words for goodness sake.

They are familiar words; they are just not words familiar to you. Some of us get policed by the neurotypical squad all the time: it would really be nice if the ASD crowd didn't give us lectures too on etiquette and what we should or should not do and say. If you have something substantive to comment on, please do. In an open forum, you will meet people very different from yourself. Please give them a little courtesy.

 

[Nervous Rex]

The best case against free will is advertising and marketing. It works because humans are predictable.

I would argue that advertising can make me want something, but it's still up to me to choose whether to buy it or not.

When I look at a typical beer commercial, for example, I can see that they're trying to associate girls in bikinis with drinking their beer. By making that conscious observation, I can interrupt the association, and then choose to accept or reject it. I find that analyzing what a commercial is trying to do to me takes a lot of its power away.

I agree with you that advertising is an excellent way to illustrate human behavior. We all have things that we do automatically, without thinking or questioning them. Advertising attempts to reach us in that state, and I think that passive, thoughtless entertainment, such TV, is a very effective way to reach that state. A person could live his whole life with nothing but conditioned responses. However, we also have the ability to question decisions, think through the consequences, and then deliberately choose something.

As another example, addiction is one of the most powerful ways that someone can lose their free will. Most addicts have lost their ability to choose not engage in their addiction. However, mindfulness is becoming increasingly popular in addiction treatments. At the core of mindfulness is the exercise of thinking ahead, and deliberately choosing.

I think addiction and advertising both illustrate the same point:

Free will is available to us, but it's optional and not easy to use.

 

[Finder]

I would argue that advertising can make me want something, but it's still up to me to choose whether to buy it or not.

When I look at a typical beer commercial, for example, I can see that they're trying to associate girls in bikinis with drinking their beer. By making that conscious observation, I can interrupt the association, and then choose to accept or reject it. I find that analyzing what a commercial is trying to do to me takes a lot of its power away.

I agree with you that advertising is an excellent way to illustrate human behavior. We all have things that we do automatically, without thinking or questioning them. Advertising attempts to reach us in that state, and I think that passive, thoughtless entertainment, such TV, is a very effective way to reach that state. A person could live his whole life with nothing but conditioned responses. However, we also have the ability to question decisions, think through the consequences, and then deliberately choose something.

As another example, addiction is one of the most powerful ways that someone can lose their free will. Most addicts have lost their ability to choose not engage in their addiction. However, mindfulness is becoming increasingly popular in addiction treatments. At the core of mindfulness is the exercise of thinking ahead, and deliberately choosing.

I think addiction and advertising both illustrate the same point:

Free will is available to us, but it's optional and not easy to use.

It is a complex question, also dependent on what you consider free will. A contrarian could claim he/she has free will, but he/she may simply be biased toward not conforming. Not all advertising works with everyone--I really don't drink beer or party with girls in bikinis. Not that beer and bikinis have anything to do with each other.

And then what about autism. Do I just have bad behavior or do I have free will over that behavior? I certainly attempt to work in social groups, but I also so fail. Addiction is a similar issue, where certain people are more prone to addiction. Note, you are always a recovering alcoholic, never a cured one. Meaning you can act in contrary to your desire, but the desire is there. So whether you act on or against that desire, the desire is the driver. I can no more chose not to be autistic as someone can chose not to be addicted.

Like I said, complex.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

I am not interested enough in discussions about free will to do heavy research. Philosophy just ain't my thing.

 

[Nervous Rex]

And then what about autism. Do I just have bad behavior or do I have free will over that behavior?

I had a similar question when I was diagnosed and began to realize how many of my traits are due to autism. I wondered, after everything about me that is explained by autism is taken away, what is left that is uniquely and truly me?

The best answer I could come up with is that I am my decisions. Everyone has some mixed bag of abilities and shortcomings. What we chose to do with them defines who we are.

 

[Nervous Rex]

The best case against free will is advertising and marketing. It works because humans are predictable.

I think advertising works on the average. Humans are very predictable in large groups, but harder to predict individually. For example, I don't buy everything I see an ad for, but companies advertise because they know someone will buy.

It is very much like classical Newtonian physics versus quantum physics. On a macroscopic level, the entire universe looks predictable and leaves no room for free will. But down at the level of individual particles, things are completely unpredictable.

I wouldn't consider the matter of free will closed until we can:
A) Completely predict every thought and action of a single person, given all the sensory input that person receives
or
B) Prove that there is a quantum effect at play in our conscious thinking.

 

[Fino]

Perhaps we should play the ball and not the man.

What does that mean?

 

[Fino]

They are familiar words; they are just not words familiar to you. Some of us get policed by the neurotypical squad all the time: it would really be nice if the ASD crowd didn't give us lectures too on etiquette and what we should or should not do and say. If you have something substantive to comment on, please do. In an open forum, you will meet people very different from yourself. Please give them a little courtesy.

Is English your first language?

 

[Finder]

What does that mean?

Simply comment on the ideas expressed and not the person.

 

[Streetwise]

Is English your first language?

that is British English, if you can! try and read some British English writing from before 1900 and a British English author from the 1980s ,it will make reading British English posts normal to you .

 

[Nervous Rex]

that is British English, if you can! try and read some British English writing from before 1900 and a British English author from the 1980s, it will make reading British English posts normal to you .

"The United States and Great Britain are two countries separated by a common language." - Anon

 

[Nervous Rex]

Here's an interesting article on free will - I just happened upon it last night.

The Clockwork Universe: Is Free Will an Illusion?

 

[Streetwise]

"The United States and Great Britain are two countries separated by a common language." - Anon

That used to be accurate but like many countries we are losing our identity to the USA so younger people use americanisms