Do you believe in IQ?

[Crossbreed]

If you got a high I.Q. and haven't gotten rich or successful something else is lacking that isn't your fault.

Giftedness is an asset.
Autistic dyssociety is a handicap.
If the former cannot overcome the latter, we can, at least, learn how to Macgyver through our poverty.
(I am right on the poverty line with a credit score of 800+.)

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

You are describing my younger brother, a walking encyclopedia.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

If you have the incorrect paradigm of how some thing works, doing some things such as arbitrary specifications on how to build a model you will never get it right, I'm seeing this with my Covid model every thing lines up when you got the correct starting hypothesis. IQ follows how colour works I can visualize the whole thing in my head. obviously a n artistic person is not the same as
someone gifted in music, any more than red is the same as green. the universe is based on continuum's and fractals if you build a model based on this it starts to work.

 

[Vindicator Phoenix]

Thanks for the question.
I think IQ can be helpful to determine who would struggle in school, but I hold an overall negative view of it. Too often, I see it made into an arrogant contest of "Who's the smartest?"
I bet there are constructive ways to use it; I just dislike seeing it made into a bragging contest.
Also, I prefer theories of multiple intelligences since they better appreciate human diversity.

 

[Crossbreed]

Too often, I see it made into an arrogant contest of "Who's the smartest?"
I bet there are constructive ways to use it; I just dislike seeing it made into a bragging contest.

Contrary to expectations, such bragging is exceedingly rare in Mensa gatherings.
Giftedness is a type of neuro-diversity.
The vibe there is very similar to the vibe here.
(And a disproportionate number of gifteds are autistic, too.)

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

l think multiple intelligences are a red herring also people's personalities also fall on contimuums. Thats why I do not trust psyhcology. They have a lot of work to do before they can accurately describe hoe the human mind works.

 

[Au Naturel]

If you got a high I.Q. and haven't gotten rich or successful something else is lacking that isn't your fault.

Take away my wife's pills and she is a failure with her almost genius I.Q.

Sometimes people don't have the biology to support genius. If you are not motivated to do something...... there is nothing you can do no matter how many history books you memorized or how high level of math you can do.

Then you can get the average, to below average person, with an incredible drive where all sorts of things overdrive that motivator drug and they succeed decently. I know a guy who is a jerk, not bright, but has this drive. He got into some MLM company and basically BSes other dumb people into buying their crappy service/product. He makes a living at it.

Then my wife knows a genius that drives a UPS truck.

I am smart but not that smart and I run my business.

Also there are many intelligences and dynamics in life. A person might not be as qualified as you but have the social skills, cunning, and lack of ethics to do what it takes to get that promotion. Where you or I would never stoop to that level to get one throwing someone else under the bus.

From all my studies I firmly believe that we are programmed with some choices in our lives. Our biology drives everything. One simple example is why do I love olives and my friend thinks they are disgusting?!?! That is so distinct it can only be biology.

Why am I smart and my neighbor dumb as hell? Biology.

Why can my friend charm anyone and an aspie can't human behavioral constructs? biology.
That is complex and NTs have it built in to their system of identification. And if an NT, like myself, trains further it is a HUGE asset in life. Reading people's body language, emotions, tone, eyes, word selection. Huge advantage.

IQ is just part of the equation. If you have excellent social skills and IQ you can go far..... but now throw in severe depression because your neurology is messed up or over sensory overload..... welp there goes your life.

Just feel fortunate you live at this time in history with the greatest advancements in technology and the most understanding toward others.... well at least in Western countries.

Put my wife, my son, and even myself back 500 years and we would all be dead by now or enslaved.

You are at the front of the line of 100,000,000,000 people that came before you. They all suffered tremendously in history. Only this era do we have real peace and understanding. People ask why I don't celebrate holidays.... I say because every day is special and better than the previous one I lived. If I go back 100 years life was brutal, harsh, and it sucked.

I don't know about real peace. Maybe within some countries but not internationally and many countries are busy ripping themselves apart. But we sure do have it cushy in a material sense. Today's poor in the west are rather well off compared to much of the world - or the west itself a century ago.

 

[The Lorax]

I don't know about real peace. Maybe within some countries but not internationally and many countries are busy ripping themselves apart. But we sure do have it cushy in a material sense. Today's poor in the west are rather well off compared to much of the world - or the west itself a century ago.

That is correct on a very basic level. US people tend to eat better, lean on having cleaner water, and better shelter. It is still slavery or imprisonment, just a more comfortable cell. If you live in a hut in Africa with no healthcare having to search for food and dig through dumps for things.... is that much of a difference than being here in a more comfortable cell working 40 hours a week not going anywhere with no chance of getting out of that hole you are in?

What I can say is that if we didn't make a wise and lucky investment we would be in a serious hole. Our prison would be quite comfortable but when we retire we would be at best middle class and within 10-15 years poor due to inflation by my calculations. Frankly so many things could have gone wrong in our lives. This one thing saved us. We are pretty smart people too. So I think if it took us X time to realize things what chance does a normal person have? Quite a few of my friends are living paycheck to paycheck. Some with serious medical conditions that will only get worse with age. They are screwed. When they retire they will immediately be poor. Good people that worked hard their lives.

Intelligence gives you the edge. If neither of us were highly intelligent I guarantee we would be poor. We wouldn't be able to afford the medication she needs and she would have had to take less effective cheaper meds. At one point these medications between her and my son were $650 a month for us including the visits to the psychiatrists. Now it is down to $330 for all the meds as they became generic and I discovered coupons.

The psychiatrist went from charging $50 for a 15m session to now $125 in 5 years. And she isn't on our insurance. Luckily my wife's company has an HRA which helps. I call her our drug dealer. I said that joke once to her, she didn't like it lol.

Anyways our one investment meant we don't have a mortgage. That has a huge long term impact on a family. No bill each month, not paying into stacked interest. Able to save that money that grows tax free in retirement. Huge difference. With property prices skyrocketing now it will be a larger burden on families. We thought about moving to a new city... what's the point? We would just sell our expensive place here to buy another there.

Anyways I am ranting.

 

[The Lorax]

Thanks for the question.
I think IQ can be helpful to determine who would struggle in school, but I hold an overall negative view of it. Too often, I see it made into an arrogant contest of "Who's the smartest?"
I bet there are constructive ways to use it; I just dislike seeing it made into a bragging contest.
Also, I prefer theories of multiple intelligences since they better appreciate human diversity.

You have the same ratio of jerks in intelligent people as anyone else. I tend to say less. Most intelligent people are better adjusted better to poorer environments and being self aware not to treat others like crap.

All the friends I speak to on a regular basis are smarter than I am except 2. I love talking to people smarter than me. I learn something usually and sometimes I teach them things. They also don't have egos to bruise when they don't know something and come to me for advise on something I know.

Focus on being friends with good kind people. That will make your life better.

My mother's wisdom that holds very true.
... If a friend treats others like crap but is nice to you, eventually you will be treated like crap. So find a better friend...

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Societies have always had a division of bright and not so bright, the brighter became the tribal chief's this then lead into the Aristocracy. Regression to the mean, then played it's part on the subsequent dynasty. To cycle over all over again.

 

[The Lorax]

Societies have always had a division of bright and not so bright, the brighter became the tribal chief's this then lead into the Aristocracy. Regression to the mean, then played it's part on the subsequent dynasty. To cycle over all over again.

But there is a limit to the "bright" people. If you have a 165 I.Q. it is incredibly hard for you to relate to the average person. You won't make a good leader unless your social intelligence is incredibly high.

The best leader is one around 125. They can relate down and have potentially enough intellect to relate up and make decisions based on experts smarter than they are. One issue with really smart people is that that analyze too much and have a harder time making decisions without concrete data. Especially if they aren't educated in math.

Very rare is the person who is a very high I.Q. and a very high social intelligence to do both. Bill Clinton has both. Richard Nixon had both I would say also. Ronald Reagan was that 125 with a high social I.Q. He knew he wasn't the smartest guy in the room so he surrounded himself with people that were and listened to them. Please ignore the policies at the time this is just an example of intelligence and leadership.

To be a tyrant you don't have to be a genius, just smart enough. The most charming idiot still can't be the king of England.

 

[Au Naturel]

If you live in a hut in Africa with no healthcare having to search for food and dig through dumps for things.... is that much of a difference than being here in a more comfortable cell working 40 hours a week not going anywhere with no chance of getting out of that hole you are in?

Uh... yeah! It matters. Double the life expectancy. And maybe your babies won't all die in infancy and you won't die in a famine or an ebola epidemic (or dysentery or malaria) or be murdered by Boko Haram or a civil war or hacked to death in a random intertribal genocide.

Working for "the man" is not slavery. It may be frustrating and often a big PITA but it is so far from slavery as to make the comparison ludicrous. You can always decide to look for a better job and you can always live a less materialistic lifestyle.

 

[The Lorax]

I said is it THAT MUCH different. If we rank individual autonomy on a scale of 1-100 in which 1 is being a literal slave, 2 being incarcerated, then the poor African would be a 3, the American work slave a 9 while an upper middle class person is a 75. You need a score of 25 to get your head above water to start saving for retirement. Thus there is little difference between the 3 and the 9. If the 9 loses their job they get tossed in the street if they can't find new employment.

Unless you have autonomy you are a slave to the system. This is from personal experience from both me and my wife. Until you experience real autonomy like we have now you don't realize how enslaved you are.

So back to the original post.... and if you don't have a high I.Q. to improve your life and make smart decisions you have a low chance of getting out of your situation.

Some figures.
Ethiopian life span 66 years
Poor in America 78 years
Rich in America 88 years.
Doesn't include quality of life. We know who wins that competition by a far.

 

[Au Naturel]

"the American work slave"

That's kind of a weird phrase. You can always find a job, especially now. It just may not be a job you want. Work it until you find something better and then quit. You can do that because you're not a slave.

There are a small number of people who are truly homeless and we ought to be doing more to find them psychological care, shelter and food. I see them on the streets every day. Their problems are not going to be easy to resolve.

Everyone has the amount of autonomy they are willing to accept. (Chris McCandless took it to an extreme. Too much freedom is dangerous.) The truth is that the more things you own, the more they own you. Most decide that material goods are more important than independence. But that's a choice, not an imposition.

I remember working part-time as a security guard. Easy job to get, easy to leave. I lived in a rusted-out van with a bed in the back. (Cost a whole $800 back then. Probably a couple of thousand today.) I had a tremendous amount of autonomy and freedom. Eventually bought a small motorcycle for even more freedom. It was a good life.

I have a sister who lives in a small trailer she tows around behind a pickup. Visits anywhere in the US that has free camping. Her costs are low enough she can do this just on social security. There's a whole subculture that does that. Watch the "Nomadland" movie. She says it is a good life.

Never mind the countless dirt baggers and surf bums and ski bums who spend their lives chasing their particular dreams, working just enough for food and gas. They are doing what they want. Work is just a means to the end of chasing the next mountain or wave set.

In many respects, people who are voluntarily low-wage are the ones who are most free. The most important freedom is freedom of the mind and that is what many people never figure out.

You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free your mind instead.
- John Lennon, "Revolution"

 

[Au Naturel]

Contrary to expectations, such bragging is exceedingly rare in Mensa gatherings.
Giftedness is a type of neuro-diversity.
The vibe there is very similar to the vibe here.
(And a disproportionate number of gifteds are autistic, too.)

I was active in Mensa for a couple of decades. This is exactly right. Mensa is FULL of mildly autistic people.

When you go to a Mensa function, the folks there are not ashamed of their intelligence. They don't hide it. The discussions can get very deep. They don't back down from their positions easily. This is (usually) balanced out by a high level of agreeing to disagree. That's not the same thing as bragging about one's intelligence.

A lot of people conflate bragging with "failure to tone down" because they can't stop comparing themselves to others.

 

[tree]

REMINDER

The topic of this thread is the question of whether or not you
believe in the concept of IQ, that score given as a result of
answering questions on an IQ test....Do you believe the IQ is
a valid measure of intelligence?

Spoiler

For political commentary, please use the Politics Discussion area. Political topics include, but are not limited to such things as slavery, dynasties, kingdoms, politicians, Presidents, aristocrasies, *the system*....etc.

 

[Crossbreed]

A lot of people conflate bragging with "failure to tone down" because they can't stop comparing themselves to others.

If the other person seems to have a higher IQ (than mine)
and is perceived to be good-natured,
it is fun (for me, at least) to watch how their mind works.

If they are unfriendly or anti-social,* I won't hang out with them very long.

*Not to be confused with dys-social.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I have met a lot of people I perceived as brighter than, me moat notably in my family. always interested in how their minds work or where did they get information from. Feels great to get something over them.

 

[The Lorax]

When I meet people smarter than me the first thing I think of is "what can they teach me that I don't know". Our first Mensa meeting we met these people at a restaurant. We were in our early 40s they were in their 60s. Of course we were bias when we saw their age. But within 30m it was one of the most interesting social gatherings we ever been too. Writers, physicists, engineers... they all had the most interesting things to say.

I am the dumbest one in my house besides the dog. I am also the one of the dumbest of all my closer friends. Doesn't bother me.

 

[BobMarmaduke]

My IQ has been somewhat of a conundrum to me. In school, I was never the first person to finish a test but if allowed enough time to myself I can remember an answer. It is part of the reason I think I could be on the spectrum. I can't do things like keep track of the score of a ballgame or play some card games in real time. I imagine many people have extra skill with those instead of less skill.

I think I would have scored higher on an IQ test earlier in life. Personally, I don't do as well when they are timed. To my knowledge, the legitimate ones are timed. I ponder the importance of the timing of the test. My answer is that it is important. I think some people with fast thinking can make big monumental mistakes in life.

But, some don't. I imagine another test of a sort is needed to weed out the monumental mistake makers. That is in line with Forest Gump's line, "Stupid is Stupid Does". That line of thinking could be confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance on my part. I'm a fan of the confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance paradigm of Scott Adams.