Do You Believe In God?

[kicker]

We are the only creature to have names for greed, lust, and jealousy. In actuality beavers change their environment to suit their needs. They are just as destructive on their environment as we are. Amounting to billions in property damage yearly on forests. Watch any wild animal and you will see lust when males fight over a female along with jealousy. You will see greed when ever you watch a pack. They have a distinct pecking order as to who can have first dibs on food or shelter and it cascades down from there. Especially when the kill is large enough for every one of them, but the alpha eats first, then the betas, then the runts. Never will you see a alpha share a meal they will leave it when they are done and then the rest fight over who gets next shot at it.

You say it doesn't seem logical for a single cell organism to evolve intelligence. Um you started out as two separate single cell organisms. A sperm and an egg. That process happens daily we can see it happen so to say its a far cry to logical thought that we all started out that way is just not true.

I personally don't care what you believe in, I really don't. If someone wants to believe that there is one god or 50,000 gods who am I to say otherwise. It is what helps them get through the day. If your faith is such that it sustains you then by all means believe, but that faith works both ways. In that if you believe then you shouldn't care if others do or don't. My not believing isn't affecting you in the slightest. You still get to live your life how you want and in the way you want. Just like your faith isn't affecting me in the slightest. I still do what I want when I want. But religion has no business in science as science has no business in faith. Faith after all is uniquely and strictly human.

 

[SUM1]

To all who say they have no proof. It does not seem logical to me that we all started out from one cell and evolved into such intelligent and able creatures that we can master manipulating and even destroying our own environment? And why are we the only creature of so many, that has things like greed and lust and jealousy? It is not logical that these things evolved in us and in no other creature. There is also no practical application for them.

We didn't start out from 1 cell. 1 cell evolved into multiple cell organisms, which then evolved into bigger things, etc. which came to form us. Over billions of years, we can become as intelligent as we are, even if what we eventually evolved from were tiny organisms. In fact, you don't know that we're the only creatures that have greed or jealousy. You don't have the mind of other animals, so you couldn't say whether they do too. They probably see us as not having it either. It's probably completely different from their point of view.

 

[Ylva]

I am not convinced rationality is a function of AS as much as it is a by-product – a coping mechanism, if you will. In many circumstances, adopting the faith of those around you will be the rational thing to do.

Officially, I would have to say I'm an apatheist. I do not believe in a god or gods, nor do I care whether such people exist. It really wouldn't change anything.

 

[Aalo]

It does not seem logical to me that we all started out from one cell and evolved into such intelligent and able creatures that we can master manipulating and even destroying our own environment? And why are we the only creature of so many, that has things like greed and lust and jealousy? It is not logical that these things evolved in us and in no other creature. There is also no practical application for them.

I have not ever before done this, but now I feel like taking this yet it can get far off topic. At first I want to apologize in advance if my message feels blunt, it's not meant to be offensive by any means. I'm curious
To spare you from reading uninteresting stuff, I'll just tell that I'm somewhat global warming sceptic. I'm not saying it's all false, just that I'm not sure at all it it's all caused my men as there are several astrophysicists etc. thinking it might have something to do with solar- or orbital changes and, to be honest, it would seem stupid for me also that people were capable to ever act that strong. This isn't either considered as first mass extinction wave at all, but argument about earth's age might be an issue for another time.

But let's now assume it's mostly about people: We can extinct many species, some of which we like, some of which we need in order to be able to function, and some that aren't immediately relevant for our existence or well being, but which might be needed by some other species. As far as we know this is a question of basic succession in ecologic hierarchy and that's executed all the time by other species too. Yet other animals should, according to christian views, be created to be lesser from humans and we ought to be special master race. Ok.

Also, if I may ask, was that comment about greed and jealousy to point out that because humans have these obscure traits, it's somehow obvious that this god form is here to protect us from them?
As kicker earlier pointed out that these actions occur in other animals too, even that they might not have names for them as we do, at least for what we know, these have a sole purpose - to get strongest mate and reproduce. To me that sounds practical if anything. I know some people in faith consider evolution to be a valid thing, but as some don't, I'd be interested to hear more.

 

[Peace]

Beavers and birds both use wood to build homes, but only we split the atom and send each other into space. A distinct difference. And the pack mentality is for survival, not from greed.
As for the sperm egg comment, great thoughts. What I meant though, was that breeding a species is far different than evolving a single cell organism into a highly evolved human. You can disagree, and I respect that.
I do not believe in pushing my faith, nor anything else off on one that does not wish it, not even my children. It can only be had by choice, so this concept could never work. Also, my faith teaches not to judge, and to accept all, no matter what. I practice this among other things.
Thank you for the polite discussion.

Animals fight, but not out of jealousy. They fight for food, territory, or mating rights only. Not because some other lion has a nicer looking fur. No other animal kills it's own kind without gain. Only we do that. No other animal takes more than it can use, only we do that. There IS a difference between us and every other living thing on the planet. What separates us from them is Motive.
I also am not saying that this is why god exists. I am saying that there is little difference between animals, with the exception of humans, and this could give traction to the point of view that God does exist.
All I know is that God does exist to me, and whatever your view is, is alright with me too.

 

[Gomendosi]

Mmmm, as far as I am aware, there is not one thing that a human does instinctually or from emotion, that is not also done by one or more species of animal somewhere on the planet, various animals in fact do horde, rape, murder for no real reason, are incestuous, covetous and all forms of retarded, the only thing they do not do that we do, is everything all together. I am surprised that we are on the internet and nobody’s looked it up. That is mans one claim to dominance, he is able to do all the things that the various other species do individually yet he also can choose not to do them.

---

Anyway, this is hardly the point, the topic of discussion here is whether or not you believe in god, and while I personally do not, I also don’t feel the need to pointlessly question or be derisive of people who do, I have noticed that of all the topics, every time a thread is started to do with religion we almost always devolve into debate about evolution, theoretical control of the masses or whether or not belief is a choice.

Actually, for the record, I am not coming down on anybody here, though I have to smile when people say, I respect your beliefs but I have the right to disagree, in much the same way as a extremist will say; “I’m not racist but…”.

Contrary to popular opinion, true respect for another belief system is not the ability to suggest that you get where somebody is coming from in terms of their faith and then in the same breath you outline why you think they are wrong and expect them to defend their beliefs to you, would you do that to a homosexual, or a soldier, a paranoid schizophrenic person perhaps? No, the only people we put through the wringer this way are people with differing religious or political views, why is that?

I just would appreciate an understanding as to why it is that a person who does or does not believe in a single or multiple deities can imagine themselves superior to another person of the opposing standpoint, this often breaks up lovers, marriages, families, communities, states, countries even; and why is one single god better than a whole pantheon I ask you, strength in numbers after all, surely.
Also, why is a religion bad if one of it’s gods supposedly requires a sacrifice every now and again for say, good crops or healthy cows and yet a really great religion can wholesale slaughter bajillions of people because they may be witches or because they are living in the wrong place or because they might know where the sacred relic is.

Religion is one of the things that people think gives them the right to be at their most dangerous and yet, more often than not it is the religious people that suffer the most ire and scorn, the most questioning and ridicule, isn’t it funny how we find the one thing a person is most vehement about and then we poke it and prod it and stamp on it and spit at it, and we disassemble it to study it and then… we are really surprised when we hurt that persons feelings or they start yelling or they go on a rampage or they blow themselves up.

I am glad I am not religious, not because I don’t like religion but because it must be a full time job putting up with people who are not religious ; ]

 

[jimited]

I find it difficult to understand why religion is such a taboo subject to debate, I stand by my opinion that "I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it" because religion is imposing on everyday life, laws are made on the basis of religion, and people kill in the name of religion,. You only need to turn to the history books and read up on the crusades, and and even now the jihad movement in Asia who say death to all infidels, genocide is committed in the name of religion but it is OK because it says so in religious books, its also ok to hate gays because it does not please god etc.The Koran and Bible are supposed to be used for moral guidance well read leviticus and tell me where the morals lay. The amount of times I've been told I'm going to hell because I'm not a believer and that I have no morality, am I not allowed to be offended or to defend myself. Again why hide from a debate? because it offends religious folk? What about what offends me? If religion wasn't so imposing it wouldn't be a problem but it is and on a colossal scale. I'm not trying to belittle anyone or score points against religion but I find it ironic that my comment will probably be considered offensive because I dare to voice my opinion but a religious person has the RIGHT to berate me because it's what the Bible or Koran teaches. Don't get me wrong I am not saying all religious folk are bad or evil, and I do think some religious folk do amazingly good things for mankind and not all atheists are good and do terribly evil things.

The world will be a better place if we could agree with what is right or wrong, but that will never happen if neither side is allowed to debate for fear of offending someone. Humans like it or not have guardianship of this delicate planet and we as humans are doing a pretty poor job of it which is purely down to different and opposing views. We are destroying ourselves from within and everything around us.

 

[Aalo]

It might not be pointless to communicate in a way we can learn something of. If it's not something factual, it might be something from others' emotions or their ways to act and even that it can be seen pointless in manner of not being directly beneficial to society, it's loads of useful brain dump hopefully for others too than just for those that have commented. I have never done that to prove someone's wrong, but to simply know how it's like to be in their position. I too condone to agreeing to disagree, because these are questions that don't have measured answers, not at least without uncertainty. I can't see it as compared with a comment "I'm not homophobic, but..." but rather "I'm not homosexual, but as some are it's no harm for me..." But then again, I might be too optimistic about people's intentions, but believe that free trade of thoughts can be carried without threat to anyone.

I agree with Gomendosi about the issue with topic of this thread, but I too think that it'd be little dum if people just gave "yes" and "no" answers in here. While it's true that as long as discussions like these are too polite they might not get deep enough, but I'm still willing to try to understand the world around me the best I can. That is, after all, why I am at discussion board. Thank you for all of your opinions :>

 

[silent ABAB]

I myself am an Atheist. My whole family is Christian, and they go good by it, so good for them. I just couldn't wrap my head around the whole thing though, so ya. A funny thing is that on this specific thread you can see the responses slowly getting larger and larger as the thread gets bigger. xD

 

[gregmcph]

Surrounded by Catholics, but everyone has their own opinion, their own twist, on what Christianity is.
It all seems to be just Opinion, and gut feeling. No solid base.
And when you look back at the history of Christianity, it is even more fluid. The beliefs of a modern Christian were not settled upon for perhaps 500 years after Christ. It is not as simple as "Jesus Said" and then everyone understood.

So, I have no idea what will happen when I die. But I don't think it is going to be exactly the way my old Primary School Nuns taught me.

 

[balder]

And why are we the only creature of so many, that has things like greed and lust and jealousy? It is not logical that these things evolved in us and in no other creature.

For those who say that greed is a natural characteristic, I don't think so. We do that because since we have the ability to think about future, we fear the unknown troubles we can face ahead, and so we try to gather resources to guarantee our success. It reminded me of a quote that an explorer, called Jean de L?ry, wrote in his book History of a Voyage to the Land of Brazil, in 1578:

Our Tupinamba are atonished to see the French and others from distant coutries go to so much trouble to get their araboutan, or brazilwood. On one occasion, one of their old man questioned me about it: "What does it mean that you Mairs and Peros (that is, French and Portuguese) come from so far for wood to warm yourselves? Is there none in your own country?" I answered him yes, and in great quantity, but not of the same kinds as theirs; nor any brazilwood, which we did not burn as he thought, but rather carried away to make dye, just as they themselves did to redden their cotton cord, feathers, and other articles. He immediately came back at me: "Very well, but do you need so much of it?" "Yes, for there is a merchant in our country who has more frieze and red cloth, and even" (and here I was choosing things that were familiar to him) "more knives, scissors, mirrors, and other merchandise than you have ever seen over here; on such merchant alone will buy all the wood that several ships bring back from your country." "Ha, ha!" said my savage, "you are telling me of wonders. (...) But this man of whom you speak, who is so rich, does he never die?" "Certainly he does," I said, "just as others do." At that (...) he asked me, "And when he is dead, to whom belong all the goods that he leaves behind?" "To his children, if there has any, and if there are none, to his brothers, sisters, or nearest kinsmen." "Truly," said my elder (who, as you will judge, was no dullard), "I see now that you Mairs (Frenchmen) are great fools; must you labor so hard to cross the sea, on which (as you told us) you endured so many hardships, just to amass riches for your children or for those who will survive you? Will not the earch that nourishes you suffice to nourish them? We have kinsmen and children, whom, as you see, we love and cherish; but because we are certain that after our death the earth which has nourished us will nourish them, we rest easy and do not trouble ourselves further about it."

 

[gregmcph]

You guys obviously haven't brought up a baby.
They're incredibly self centered little beasts. Greed is built in. You either encourage or discourage it as a parent.
In the natural world... you have a dog or cat? Same deal applies. Animals are built to grab what they can. It's a matter of survival.

 

[Peace]

I have raised four children, and have worked with kids and animals my whole life. I do not believe that survival and greed are the same thing. Watch a room full of preschoolers play together. They share willingly, they do not notice that they are of different races, and they only pay attention to one toy at a time. Now take someone who makes millions a year, they still pursue more money, cars, boats, etc. I live in a vacation area, and it is not uncommon that large homes here often do not get used for a year or two. Why would someone have a home that they are too busy to even use when there are so many in need? Greed. Yes, I believe that even though the experts say that Floride and NAFTA will be good for you, I choose to disagree.

 

[IContainMultitudes]

I have raised four children, and have worked with kids and animals my whole life. I do not believe that survival and greed are the same thing. Watch a room full of preschoolers play together. They share willingly, they do not notice that they are of different races, and they only pay attention to one toy at a time. Now take someone who makes millions a year, they still pursue more money, cars, boats, etc. I live in a vacation area, and it is not uncommon that large homes here often do not get used for a year or two. Why would someone have a home that they are too busy to even use when there are so many in need? Greed. Yes, I believe that even though the experts say that Floride and NAFTA will be good for you, I choose to disagree.

Just curious, what do Floride and NAFTA have to do with this discussion?

 

[Peace]

I was just trying to make the point that all through out history, man has been wrong about his science. Each of us has to decide on what we believe, and I have believed that the Free Trade Agreement and fluoride were both bad ideas, even when conventional wisdom said otherwise.

 

[Aalo]

No one has stated that there's no mistaking in science. It is well known that it is always just the best guess available, and yes, sometimes it is easy to go wrong with so many possible options. It's the same in everyday life - sometimes we make a wrong approximation, maybe even another, and maybe only that way we can find really better working solution. I can't either see this as a question about only one existing, either god(s) or science. It's not that you'd have to give up all your electronic devices and medical aid if you choose to believe in something higher that gives you hope and feel of safety.
Also, I'm interested how you not agreeing with politicians has to do with either science or god(s). Maybe you could open that up a bit more?

 

[Ste11aeres]

Yes, I do. I have a relationship with God and feel His presence.

 

[Peace]

I am sorry, but I don't even know where the politicians came in. Look, One can have beliefs without proof, without science, and without it making sense to anyone else, AND WE ARE ALL JUSTIFIED IN WHAT WE BELIEVE.
Believing in a god does not make you afraid. Not believing in god does not make you non caring. I enjoy the discussion. I talk in circles at times (I think I might have Aspergers or something).
I believe in God because I do not want to believe that I am as good as it gets. To be humble, helps me to keep a better perspective on life. I also believe in God, because I have traveled the Crow Creek Pass in Alaska, and I was in such awe, that I knew there must be a God.
Good discussion.

 

[pacman]

I was just trying to make the point that all through out history, man has been wrong about his science. Each of us has to decide on what we believe, and I have believed that the Free Trade Agreement and fluoride were both bad ideas, even when conventional wisdom said otherwise.

When man is wrong about science, it has always been science that figures this out and fixes it. Also, when that happens, it's like sharpening a sword. The knowledge gets more refined and more precise. In reality, most modern science is approximation, which gets better as experimental techniques advance and can test the limits of said approximation. It rarely is the case that a scientific theory has to be completely abandoned when new data comes in, since any new theory must explain the old data. For example, Newtonian mechanics is wrong, yet that's the physics that is used to build the buildings you go into, the cars you use, the planes you fly in, etc... Newtonian mechanics is wrong because it doesn't explain stuff like the orbit of Mercury, among other things, which general relativity fixes.

AND WE ARE ALL JUSTIFIED IN WHAT WE BELIEVE.

I'm sorry, but this is a fundamentally wrong sentence.

 

[Aalo]

I am sorry, but I don't even know where the politicians came in.

It's in my belief that they came in somewhere around this:

Each of us has to decide on what we believe, and I have believed that the Free Trade Agreement and fluoride were both bad ideas, even when conventional wisdom said otherwise.

Again, I don't mean to make this personal. Also, if this is just the matter of misunderstanding, that's fine and I'm sorry about the interruption.
But. FTA is a political pact, which might have some grounds on scientific observations in fields of statistics, but most of all it's something politicians came up with, and doesn't really have much to do with science or scientists itself. I was just interested in how does that break any affection with god.

Or if it was meant as an analogy about being able to act in what one believes in, that's quite interesting. As most of us seem to agree, it's okay for someone think how they wish, also about religion, but fighting against actual facts might not be very effective after all. Trading agreements wont vanish because some won't like them. I only mean, that it's not quite felicitous reference.

I'm sorry, but this is a fundamentally wrong sentence.

Is this just a mention about bad grammar in here? As in "None has rights to do and have everything they want, but they can want to do and have anything they feel like."

Just paying some attention on details in order to be able to go on with this. Personally I can't go far with assumptions.