Do I have to fake I like humans in order to cooperate with them?

[Matthias]

...I obviously dislike humans since they are vicious and dangerous...

Some humans are vicious and dangerous but if you spent more time getting to know people you'd find that many humans are warm in friendly. However, if you approach people believing that all humans are vicious and dangerous, you're going to interpret their behavior more negatively and misunderstand them because of it which will reinforce your negative opinion of people. If you practice seeing everyone as individuals without assuming anything negative about them, you're more likely to see that there are many good people in the world and start feeling better around them.

 

[StrayCat]

You just have to tell them you don't want to talk. If they ask why, you can just tell them it's because you don't like people.

From my experience, risky... People do take things like that personally, and that is recipe for dramas... Heck, even NTs don't usually tell people outright they don't like spending time with them...

If you practice seeing everyone as individuals without assuming anything negative about them, you're more likely to see that there are many good people in the world and start feeling better around them.

Yeah, tried that, got me in trouble few times. I even had someone trying to copulate with me, that was kind of traumatic to be honest. I don't think I have enough of thick skin for that...

 

[Fino]

How much you need to lie depends on who you are. If you're a serial killer, I suspect you'd have to lie quite a bit.

 

[Suzette]

I very much do think that narcs are way better at social games than me. This is what I mean when I say I'm "below

Do you see everyone as being hostile towards you?

Most people aren't actually "playing games". They aren't that devious. They are just humans that sometimes do things we don't understand and sometimes do things we don't like.

 

[StrayCat]

Do you see everyone as being hostile towards you?

No, I see them as dangerous. Kind of like bees

Most people aren't actually "playing games".

Hmm, to me it very much does look like a social status game. Humans are natural at it, so guess they don't see it as a game?

Why would humans care so much what others think about them , if not to keep an eye on their social status?

 

[SimonSays]

@StrayCat

By calling other people 'humans', when we are all in that category, reveals a state of mind that probably makes interacting quite difficult. I understand from what you've said that you've had encounters that have left you resistive, and are essentially protecting yourself, but 'humans' are not your enemy.

But when you say...

...if they ask me something I just have to tell them what they want to hear and hope they will leave me alone

I don't get it. Why would you have to tell them what you think they want to hear and not tell them what you actually think? What are you afraid will happen? Sounds like what you don't want already is, so doing this isn't working. Why not just be yourself? Better for you as a person because at least you are being you, not perpetuating falseness at every turn.

 

[StrayCat]

don't get it. Why would you have to tell them what you think they want to hear and not tell them what you actually think? What are you afraid will happen? Sounds like what you don't want already is, so doing this isn't working. Why not just be yourself? Better for you as a person because at least you are being you, not perpetuating falseness at every turn.

I'm afraid they might get angry and that might cause obvious trouble. Last thing I want is to cause needles drama because I'm weird. For example, if I volunteer at the shelter, it means I want to help dogs, this is the goal. People having problem with my weirdness might compromise this goal, so masking and "telling people what they want to hear" is most likely lesser evil here?

 

[SimonSays]

I'm afraid they might get angry and that might cause obvious trouble. Last thing I want is to cause needles drama because I'm weird. For example, if I volunteer at the shelter, it means I want to help dogs, this is the goal. People having problem with my weirdness might compromise this goal, so masking and "telling people what they want to hear" is most likely lesser evil here?

I disagree. It will most likely make you live in a way that leaves you constantly having to hide in case they find out who you really are. It is not a good way of being. I understand the fear, but to act on it will not result in what you think it will. If people have a problem with your weirdness, they'll see it in other ways. Better you are you, so that people can get used to you, and you will not seem so weird (I'm using your word here but am not saying I think you are weird as I don't know you).

 

[Suzette]

Why would humans care so much what others think about them , if not to keep an eye on their social status?

Why do you? You have been arguing that you are "beneath" others and that other people "play games" but you would only think these things if the opposite mattered to you. In other words, you care very much what others think of you and your social status. That is 100% on you. So, why do you care?

 

[StrayCat]

I disagree. It will most likely make you live in a way that leaves you constantly having to hide in case they find out who you really are.

I thought so, but with "liking people", it's surprisingly not an issue at all. Humans have really hard time accepting I don't like them for some reason... Take my parents for example, I can barely stand responding to their emails once a month or two, and they still didn't take the hint that I really despise them.

I could obviously tell them that openly, I'm sure I could hammer that into them, but also, what good would that bring? Isn't it better to let them think whatever they are thinking?

Better you are you, so that people can get used to you, and you will not seem so weird (I'm using your word here but am not saying I think you are weird as I don't know you).

I actually tried it few times. Last time was at animal sanctuary. I was very honest and told them I don't like human contact, I'm scared of them all, and that I came here to help with the animals. They did not take that well at all... Humans seem to be sooo super social that they really seem to have problem working with someone who doesn't like them... On the other hand, whenever I'm not honest, whenever I pretend I kind of sort of enjoy talking to them occasionally, there are never any problems.

 

[SimonSays]

I thought so, but with "liking people", it's surprisingly not an issue at all. Humans have really hard time accepting I don't like them for some reason... Take my parents for example, I can barely stand responding to their emails once a month or two, and they still didn't take the hint that I really despise them.

I could obviously tell them that openly, I'm sure I could hammer that into them, but also, what good would that bring? Isn't it better to let them think whatever they are thinking?

Well, these are your parents, so they are probably going to care about you no matter what you do. Perhaps not the best example.

I was very honest and told them I don't like human contact, I'm scared of them all, and that I came here to help with the animals. They did not take that well at all... Humans seem to be sooo super social that they really seem to have problem working with someone who doesn't like them...

By revealing this idea as a fact, you make it so much harder. Who says that along the way you don't come to like one or two of them? But by making this a fact for them, you create a hostile situation that did not have to be there. It may turn out that you don't connect with anyone there, but they don't know this is what you already thought would happen. By this point you are doing the job, they have become used to you, without feeling affected by what you said, and things may go so much easier for you. You are still being yourself, just not throwing ideas about what you think will happen in their face. Ideas that actually don't exist in this moment, and may never exist.

 

[StrayCat]

In other words, you care very much what others think of you and your social status.

I only care for lack of trouble. You can think of me whatever you want, I don't care. But the moment you get angry at me and become hostile, that might very well start trouble. While online it's not big deal, I actually hope you will just block me or something, I would not risk being honest with you in meatspace, because who knows what you will do when you get mad? Humans are unpredictable...

 

[StrayCat]

Perhaps not the best example.

Actually, humans tend to not believe me when I tell them I'm afraid of them. They think I'm joking. So this is surprisingly common.

Who says that along the way you don't come to like one or two of them?

Because I never have met a human I could connect with? Why would another bunch of scary loud humans be any different? Although I'd obviously love to be proved wrong and find myself someone I could.

By this point you are doing the job, they have become used to you, without feeling affected by what you said, and things may go so much easier for you.

Nope, it didn't work that way at all. I've done exactly what you are proposing here, I never announced anything, I was just myself and avoided them because I could only stand them for very limited time.
And this was exactly what made them feel bad...

 

[SimonSays]

Because I never have met a human I could connect with? Why would another bunch of scary loud humans be any different?


Nope, it didn't work that way at all. I've done exactly what you are proposing here, I never announced anything, I was just myself and avoided them because I could only stand them for very limited time.
And this was exactly what made them feel bad...

If you live 'in the past' as you are, you do not allow room for things to be different in the present. You speak as if you have it all figured out, and things can only be as they have been, but if you want things to be different, YOU have to do things differently, not blame others for what isn't working.

Although I'd obviously love to be proved wrong and find myself someone I could.

Honestly, I'm not sure I believe that, as your words tell a different story. I hope you find your way. Good luck.

 

[StrayCat]

You say you don't like people and you say you despise your parents, so do you need to cooperate with people or spend time with them?

Not only I'm not omnipotent, I very much see value of cooperation. I cannot make my own animal shelter, I need to cooperate with humans on that. This kind of forces me into human contact.

I don't think you will have a problem with dealing with people, they way you behave will most likely chase everyone away.

Of course it would chase them away, that's why I have to lie and mask. Was just wondering if there could be a way to avoid those lies, but guess not really?

I mean, this thread is even decent example I think? I upset ton of humans here already, which would not have happened if I did the smart thing and lied and masked?

 

[Ban]

I think for the most part you do have to mask to cooperate well with others I've always noticed a pretty linear correlation between how fake I'm being and how well people receive me and therefore cooperate with me. I think the issue is kind of that other people's set point is to automatically to fake it so when people say just be yourself they mean be at that set point of faking it which they assume everybody is. If you like me, aren't at that setpoint naturally then I think you have to actively fake it to get by.
In terms of your question here :

Very true. I feel heavy masking works well whenever interaction is short, and I want to end it as soon as possible. But one of my long term goals is to find someone who makes sense, someone likeable, someone where we don't have to mask with each other. Which means the less I mask, the better. But not masking means I will trigger hostilities, and this can lead to unnecessary troubles and dramas... So yeah, how to balance that...

How do you do it actually?

I think the question of can you find one person who you don't have to mask/fake it around is actually a different question and the answer would be yes you can. So long as you do actually respect the person there are people who don't need all the extra fake stuff on top and actually appreciate genuine and honest respect. I think these relationships come from getting to know each other very well and starting to you use a different language to communicate. For example rather than telling them you respect them by lying about saying you think a particular thing they said was correct it may be that in this relationship you show them you respect them by having the confidence that they will take you not agreeing without an issue and sort of "treat them like an adult" without patronising them. You asked how your supposed to get this kind of relationship if you are required to mask. I think you just need to judge the person and think is this someone you just need to cooperate with to get by or is this someone you can actually have some meaning with and behave accordingly from there.

 

[Jordy]

There is just no way to win. People that try to tell you that one group of people you interacted are no representation of other groups, obviously this is an insane statement, it would imply that entire fields of study such as psychology and sociology are nonsense and that learning social skills from experience is impossible. Maybe at a concrete literal level one group does not represent another, but they do at a more abstract level. If most people didn't like you in high school they most likely wont in college either, if people in college took advantage of you it will most likely also happen at your work and for the same reasons. You are not going magically stumble in an environment where people are just completely different and nice to you, you either have to change or accept things as they are.

When i was younger i didn't understand politeness, i thought that people only say nice things because they are nice, that it was genuine. Now i can see that 90% of niceness is fake politeness. I don't like when people are fake nice and i stand by that, if you are not genuine i don't want any of it.

 

[Matthias]

From my experience, risky... People do take things like that personally, and that is recipe for dramas... Heck, even NTs don't usually tell people outright they don't like spending time with them...


Yeah, tried that, got me in trouble few times. I even had someone trying to copulate with me, that was kind of traumatic to be honest. I don't think I have enough of thick skin for that...

People think and act differently depending on where you live. If you live somewhere where many people are sensitive and take things personally, I recommend describing actions instead of people. For example, instead of saying, "I don't like people," I'd say, "I don't like to talk" or "I prefer solitude."

It's completely normal to be somewhat distrustful and guarded around people you don't know very well so I agree it's good to be cautious. The problem with treating everyone like they're vicious and dangerous is that you'll miss out on opportunities to have positive experiences with people due to being too cautious. I'd aim for something in-between so you can enjoy being around some people while still protecting yourself from people who may want to harm you.

 

[Ban]

When i was younger i didn't understand politeness, i thought that people only say nice things because they are nice, that it was genuine. Now i can see that 90% of niceness is fake politeness. I don't like when people are fake nice and i stand by that, if you are not genuine i don't want any of it.

This is what I was trying to get at in my manners/politeness thread but you have put it much more succinctly. People talk about politeness as though it means niceness but it is only necessary when true niceness isn't there and you are trying to avoid dealing with that reality. If everyone approached every situation with genuine niceness then there would not be a word for politeness, it would just be called being honest.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Maybe because I felt the sting of social isolation, being inept socially and unable to understand social communication, I have become more tolerant of others. I never masked except to be socially avoidant, and now as I've stumbled my way through life I do not think I am doing it. Rather I am realistic in taking the world and people as they are. People I like know my ethics and my views, which I do not hold back, but neither am I confrontational. With them it is safe for me to advocate for my views. Others, especially the cruel and deliberately ignorant I have no use for and avoid. Yet I am OK to give people a chance and this past year enjoyed meeting some newcomers to the bicycling and paddling clubs I belong to. One couple has taught my spouse and I Double Deck Pinocle.

In my work I got a reputation for speaking truth to managers and administrators and I keep things factual. The trick there is to first describe an issue, why it caught my attention, go through an analysis and then the choices.

The most pushback I received was when discussing Uber and Lyft with people enamored of technobabble. I followed Hubert Horan, a transportation economist who has explained why they cannot make a profit and they count on their drivers being economically illiterate. They were hostile towards my explanation. I just stopped because there was no way to convince them, but after their IPOs and when stock became available for trading, I shorted them and made money. They thought that this was helping cripple the companies.