Do Aspies/Auties Have a Different Understanding of Right and Wrong?

[pjcnet]

Autism didn't CAUSE him to shoot people. Mental illness didn't ENABLE him to shoot people. Being able to procure a semi-automatic rifle like it was a packet of cigarettes is what took those kids lives.

To expand on that; he may well have had autism. He may well have had mental illness. But, even if he had one or both, it was having that kind of weapon available that did such massive damage.Even if he had a knife as weapon of choice, he could not have caused such a high body count.

True and then we come back to this thread:

Gun control in North America

 

[ksheehan88]

True and then we come back to this thread:

Gun control in North America

I'm not even sure I want to read that.

 

[Theta.G]

You've pretty much wrapped it up. It is very true just how shockingly powerful the media is and most people greatly underestimate it thinking they're different, although a certain awareness of this allows us to put up some resistance. If you control the media, you control most of the people. Anyone who wants to take control of a country fully understands how powerful and indoctrinating the media is when TV and radio stations become high profile targets. People's entire views of the world and many people who they've never even met, but seem to think they know well including leaders who know full well how to act when in front of a camera are based entirely on what the media tells them to believe and people are massively influenced all the time, often without realising it or certainly understanding the full extent of it, but it's even more powerful as people grow up. You are also right about the news, they could be described as merchants of chaos because there's nothing like bad news to get the money coming in. I covered the drugs side in my reply earlier, although a lot of people don't understand the extent of this either including how corrupt and powerful the pharmaceutical companies are, so I also agree. And yes, finally environment factors and stresses triggers it.

I don't believe everyone who lived exactly his life would have ended up killing people, but I do believe we are all capable of killing under certain conditions and even though some people are easier to condition than others, I also think it's possible to condition anyone to kill, especially if the conditioning/indoctrination starts from when they're very young. If people don't believe me, then here is an example, if the media suddenly states that your country is under threat from a hostile and evil force, then if they bring back in national service, the army will condition most people to kill and the people fighting will fully back their country, truly believing they're right. Similarly most of the German soldiers who fought for Hitler believed they're were doing the right thing when they were also conditioned to kill on the battlefield.

Couldn't agree more. You know whatsup! There are so many safe guards against this kinda stuff, counter active measures. As you said. That one can do on their own to keep their mind in tact. Yet... Even if we are aware how environmental influences and repetition, emotional charged content effects us we are still susceptible to it. Bit of a psychological exploit. Intended to keep quiet on this but everyone is talking about it. Repetition is one of the most powerful ways to change beliefs, thought patterns, etc. That's about 30+ repeated suggestions a day since incident. through people irl, over phone, news sources, social media, games you name it. We are who we hang out with / we are shaped by our environment. So you get this repetitive programming that's designed to infiltrate the mind then you have all the people around you saying "it's awful!" "it's this!" "it's that!' "What's this world coming to!" which in turn degrades our own resistance. I was able to reduce it using F.B Purity which allows you to take control of your facebook and omit harmful news stories that nobody can do anything about. You could also filter posts. In ABP ad blocker you can block invasive images. Since images are the language of the subconscious that's another way one can be easily impacted without their knowing. (Example. You sign out of your email and land on a news page with graphic images and this story. No choice for most, must see it. Whether they pay attention or not it gets injected)
Haven't even dug into the story and do not intend to since nothing can come from it except negative effects. Debating over gun rights, autism, his hispanic ethnicity etc won't lead anyone to actionable preventatives. Just creates more division. Very polarized thinking. And as i'm sure you're aware it's the same song and dance with these events anyway. Just different musicians and actors.
A different pied piper.

I'd also have to agree with you there. CIA experiments (MKU) hell even Darren Brown a hypnotist has proven this. Same thing can be done with Datura i think it's name was. A direct mind control drug.

 

[Ragnahawk]

People using psychology in this instance as an explanation for the person's decision are probably wrong. I think it is an issue of socialogy. There are billions of people on earth. That is a billion chances that an autistic person could potentially be corrupted by surrounding influences. If people are looking for a group of people to blame they should first fully analyze the neighborhood, city, state or even country's influence on that person's life before they jump to a different conclusion.

 

[wight]

Not having an understanding of right/wrong, as someone else pointed out, is a legal thing. It's fairly well defined as to what it means in the judicial system. There are more interesting points to the OP's question to me...

Is there such a thing as evil? I would tend to say yes, but in this context it would be someone that knows right and wrong and intentionally chooses the path that causes the most pain and harm and takes pleasure in the results.

That, differentiated from mentally ill, which to my understanding the actions of the person are not driven by a choice but unconscious desires they can not control. Whether they know right and wrong, they are unable to stop themselves from acting out their violent fantasies. They don't consciously make a choice, in other words. Knowing/understanding right and wrong is a moot point, I think, for these.

Psychology has identified a small percentage of the population (slightly less than 2% of men, and a fractional % of women) for whom violence has no emotional impact. They know right from wrong, can commit a violent act (killing another human) and it has no real psychological or emotion effects for them. Here again, we see a conscious choice to act, even if the act is morally wrong.

So who is left that can commit a violent act (murder, assault, rape) that has no true understanding of moral right from wrong? Children and others who do not have a brain developed enough to understand. Or lost it (e.g. Alzheimer's) Someone with a physical brain injury (trauma or a tumor), maybe.

If I am just a guy, filled with rage, and seeking to take revenge against whomever for a perceived or real injustice. Maybe I was abused, or bullied, or pass over for promotion. Whatever the case, though my outrage may be justified, I fail to see that as a justification for violent action.

 

[granolaturtle]

You're touching on something I have mentioned in other threads that they (those who make labels or assign blame) forget that there's just evil in the world.



Oh yeah, they'll no doubt hire experts to testify; and the prosecution will do the same to refute what the defense experts say. I feel that we have the best judicial system on the planet, but at times it makes me scratch my head when it comes to cases like this.

The bottom line is if he was cognizant of right and wrong when he committed the deed. If he wasn't then what does that mean? He still committed the act, but does that mean he wasn't actually guilty because he was unaware? And if they tie it together with being on the spectrum then how will that affect each of us?

It was because of the Newtown tragedy that caused me to research AS and then ultimately get diagnosed. It seems like whenever something like this occurs that they imply an autism link. Some vote-hungry politician will probably propose legislation that will somehow have a negative affect on the lives of those on the spectrum.

You touch on something that's really important for people to keep in mind, these days. It is possible for people to just do the wrong thing while knowing it's wrong and even feel bad about doing wrong and still do it. There's a variety of reasons people do this, but it certainly doesn't always boil down to some kind of pathology. It's why I'm tired of shows like "Criminal Minds". They always try to stretch a mental illness so it can be used as a "motivation" for their characters.

Being neurotypical isn't a "get out of ever being evil" free card. A neurotypical doesn't suddenly become mentally ill when they do something bad. I've come to believe that genuine evil does exist, it just emerges gradually over the course of a series of decisions - and the rationalizations that go along with those decisions.

For example, the gangsters (like, serious criminals who kill people and intimidate innocents, not teenagers falling into a bad crowd) of the world aren't all mentally ill. And this recent push by some to define bad behavior as a mental illness is very worrying, not just for the sake of mentally ill folks who might be unfairly targeted but for the sake of our cultural understanding of moral responsibility.

If the neurotypicals of the world stop viewing their own actions with a critical lense for right and wrong out of a self-assured notion that they can't be evil by virtue of having empathy and making friends easily, it doesn't bode well.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

the gangsters (like, serious criminals who kill people and intimidate innocents, not teenagers falling into a bad crowd) of the world aren't all mentally ill. And this recent push by some to define bad behavior as a mental illness is very worrying, not just for the sake of mentally ill folks who might be unfairly targeted but for the sake of our cultural understanding of moral responsibility.

I wonder if the trend of categorising people as mentally ill is :

Easier to incarcerate them without due process. Ie coupled with failing justice system... you dont need as stringent a process to take them off the streets.

 

[fuðflogi]

Killing is wrong FULL STOP, no exceptions.
enough said.

 

[WereBear]

For example, the gangsters (like, serious criminals who kill people and intimidate innocents, not teenagers falling into a bad crowd) of the world aren't all mentally ill. And this recent push by some to define bad behavior as a mental illness is very worrying, not just for the sake of mentally ill folks who might be unfairly targeted but for the sake of our cultural understanding of moral responsibility.

Excellently put! The thing about mental illness is how it distorts one's perceptions.

When I was very sick Mr WereBear drove me to this place for a work assignment. I was going to spend this themed weekend there to write a blog about it. Well, that first night, I didn't keep up with the supplements I took to function and got too busy to remember I was doing so. So I woke up with an anxiety attack at three in the morning that just got worse with the unfamiliar surroundings and knowing I didn't have a car available to leave from this very nice place that was suddenly so scary. I was working myself into ridiculous levels of paranoia when I remembered I needed to take my pregnenolone.

Within 15 minutes, I was calm and back to sleep. It was that dramatic.

If I didn't have relief from my brain clamor, I can easily see how someone could panic and would be wandering around the grounds, possibly misinterpreting offers of help for dangerous developments.

That's how mental illness can lead to episodes of violence. But I still can't see how such would translate into mass shootings.

That's spite and lack of compassion and hatred. And these people work themselves into that state over years of ignoring signs they need to adapt and improve.

 

[WereBear]

And here's another angle. I am pretty outspoken about my skepticism about psychiatric drugs. I know people who have found these do more damage than help, others who thought they helped at first but became a nightmare to get away from after they could not hold onto initial improvements, and still others for whom they were disastrous.

I follow this doctor's website, and here are some of his points:

Psychiatrist Says: More Psychiatry Means More Shootings

One of the first required steps is to force public disclosure of any and all drugs prescribed to violent perpetrators. We still do not know exactly what was prescribed to Cruz other than that he was treated for ADHD and depression. Family members have reported that he was taking psychiatric medications for depression around the time he assaulted his school, but we lack documentation for this.

Authorities often avoid releasing information about the medications that mass murderers were taking. In 2012, twenty-year-old Adam Lanza murdered 20 children and 6 adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Six years later, the State of Connecticut has never released his medical records or reported the medications in his blood. Why? According to an assistant attorney general for the state, Lanza’s medications cannot be made public because the information “can cause a lot of people to stop taking their medications.”

It took a legal action to force the corner in the Las Vegas mass murder case to make public what if any medications were identified in the perpetrator’s body. When it was reported that he had Valium in his body at the time of his death, it did not even get a ho-hum response from the press.

Similarly, in 2013, when it was quickly discovered that the naval yard shooter had recently been started on the antidepressant trazodone at the VA, the news just as quickly disappeared from view. So it will not be enough to get the information we need; we will also have to work to draw attention to it.​

 

[WereBear]

Evil. Hmmmm.

When an incompetent and money-hungry doctor plunged me into surgical menopause, one of the side effects of suddenly being short of vital hormones was a lack of tolerance for other people being annoying. This is always a "tough nut to crack" but it turns out, without estrogen, we're all this close to running amok with an axe. And then, everyone goes, "Oh, that's just terrible, running amok like that, this must be an evil person."

And yes, sometimes they are. And sometimes they are a person driven insane by pain that has not been addressed. And that, I have some sympathy for.