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Do Aspies/Auties Have a Different Understanding of Right and Wrong?

Sportster

Aged to Perfection
V.I.P Member
Once again there has been a tragic mass shooting at a school and speculation raised that the perpetrator might be on the spectrum. While the world looks at this unspeakable event and decries gun ownership, I can’t help but wonder about the moral aspect of it.

Was the shooter just plain evil without a sense of right from wrong? If so, and if he is on the spectrum, then does that mean those on the spectrum have a skewed understanding of right and wrong? This has nothing to do with one’s religious or secular views, but rather the simple basic instincts that people seem to be born with: “Killing other humans is wrong.”

This subject could go down many paths. For instance, many on the spectrum enjoy video games. Would that have something to do with the shooter’s mindset or lack of conscience if he is truly on the spectrum? Did his other mental health issues have something to do with it?

What do you think?
 
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I think it's a simplistic way of absolving their own puzzlement and in some cases, culpability.

99% of these mass shootings are white males, yet few delve into "what's wrong with white males?" in response.
 
Aspies as mass shooters? Please! We hate crowds :)

Yes, the horrific Newtown shooting was by someone on the spectrum, but he was also raised by an extremely crazed mother, who he also shot.

Most of the time, we're dealing with psychopathology. Which isn't autism by any stretch.
 
IMO one dynamic that remains problematic among humanity is this drive to immediately establish a reason for things, whether it is true in whole or in part- or not at all. That proverbial rush to judgment through the press, politicians and the public at large. Regardless of considerations of due process.

Blame guns. Blame autism. Blame something or someone. Much like a government bureaucrat bellowing over whatever went wrong. "I want a name! Give me a name!"

I'm inclined to think it's a bit more complicated than that. And it usually is. o_O
 
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Based on my experience on this forum, I'd think that people on the spectrum tend to be more moral than many NTs. I think WereBear has a point- all these shootings are by white males and I am wondering if there's a group of them out there who feel marginalized and then drift towards the hate groups which fuel their need for revenge. Judge has a good point too, it's probably a complex issue in which appearances can be deceiving.
 
The shooter is Aspie? How about no? Just because he did something evil doesn't mean he's Aspie, he clearly has something wrong with him, but it's probably not Autism.
 
I don't know the full story about the shooter, but I think all these shootings are clearly a combination of factors. Is access to weapons one of them? Sure it is. If he is on the spectrum, could this be a factor? Well, if being on the spectrum led to him to being an outcast, then it probably was a contributing factor. It is more the fact that he wasn't accepted by others, than autism though. Many of these shooters have been bullied mercilessly by their peers before they finally reach a breaking point. Even with a hard life, there is no way is shooting others an acceptable way to carry out those frustrations. The media loves to oversimplify things and find one thing they can hammer on over and over again. The sad thing about the media is they seem to do a lot of the think for American people rather than simply giving us the facts and let people come to their own opinions. So who is to blame? Maybe he shouldn't have had access to guns. Maybe the FBI should have done their job and follow up on a tip they received. Maybe someone locally should have stepped in and put at stop to the bullying that this kid was subjected to (if he was bullied). Maybe all it would have taken is for someone, just one person to be kind to him for a change. Rather than immediately passing judgement b/c he may have been different. Maybe people need to pay more attention to the world around them and try to make the world around them a better place. Rather than spending hours on social media. Or listening to world news and worrying about something half way across the world that they have absolutely no control over. But no one seems to be held accountable these days. It is always someone else's fault. It's the republican's fault. It's ISIS fault. It is Democrat's fault. FBI fault. It's Donald Trump's fault. Maybe it society's fault.
 
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Of course we know right from wrong; since we make choices every day, that involve right or wrong; What could be asked is: despiting knowing right from wrong, am I going to do the wrong thing? Clearly this guy allowed all right go out of the window.

His peers even knew it was him. He boasted online that he wanted to be a school shooter.

What makes me sick, is that his stupid defence lawyer is making excuses for him and painting him as a niave and troubled teen; but notice his body posture? False.

Lol it is SOOO easy to say that he was not in control.
 
In my experience, people on the spectrum have a very strong sense of right or wrong.

Autism doesn't cause people to go out on mass shootings. Mental health problems do, or a bad reaction to a drug. The perpetrator might be on the specrum, but that alone isn't enough to cause a person to flip. It is likely to be a combination of factors - mental health issues, drugs/antidepressants that he reacted badly to and made him impulsive (they can do that), depression, meltdown.
 
Please don't jump on the attorney. The shooter is entitled to legal counsel under our laws. It is the attorney's sworn and ethical duty to present the best defense possible for his client. If the attorney is so repulsed by his client that he cannot effectively represent the client, then the attorney has a conflict of interest and should withdraw from representation. It is the duty of judges and juries to judge the defendant's guilt or innocence, not the attorneys. Many attorneys knowingly represent reprehensible clients because it is their duty to do so. That is how the American legal system operates, and it is very similar to the UK justice system from which the American system is derived. It's not much different from medical doctors who provide medical care to the most depraved among us.

I've seen reports that the shooter is autistic but it is based on hearsay - a neighbor said the mother, now deceased, said the shooter was autistic. Regardless of that, there is clearly something very, very psychotic about him.
 
So far his alleged autism are all accounts from relatives and neighbors. While we all know the sanctity and confidentiality of medical records, HIPAA, etc...are in place, I'd still like to see it ascertained as fact that the man was formally/professionally diagnosed as autistic.

I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before his attorney provides this information if it actually exists. Though no doubt investigators representing the prosecution and the press are aggressively searching as well.

I have to say though that it makes me sick to think of these mass murderers associated in any way with autism. It's bad enough that the public at large has difficulties differentiating between autism and mental retardation. And to factor mass murder into the this prejudicial equation is horrifying. I cringe for all of us who are overwhelmingly peaceful, law abiding citizens wherever we reside.
 
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I think we do. Also a lot of factors go into why people do these things. Being Autistic is probably a very small reason why.
 
The bottom line is if he was cognizant of right and wrong when he committed the deed. If he wasn't then what does that mean? He still committed the act, but does that mean he wasn't actually guilty because he was unaware? And if they tie it together with being on the spectrum then how will that affect each of us?

That's a fair question. One that in fact I believe is already answered within Florida statute law pertaining to an insanity defense. The only way to absolve one accused of such a crime. However merely being autistic and being found to be legally insane tend to be mutually exclusive terms in a legal context relative to Florida law. Especially given the burden of proof is on the defendant to successfully argue this to the contrary.

775.027 Insanity defense.—
(1) AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE.—All persons are presumed to be sane. It is an affirmative defense to a criminal prosecution that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant was insane. Insanity is established when:
(a) The defendant had a mental infirmity, disease, or defect; and
(b) Because of this condition, the defendant:
1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences; or
2. Although the defendant knew what he or she was doing and its consequences, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong.

Mental infirmity, disease, or defect does not constitute a defense of insanity except as provided in this subsection.

(2) BURDEN OF PROOF.—The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Simply put, under these legal circumstances it will take more than just being on the spectrum to escape a guilty verdict in Florida. IMO given the apparent premeditation and preparation of his actions, I don't see how his attorney can successfully wage such a defense given how this statute reads.

Though the defendant may just plead guilty and accept a life sentence. Some news sources are already citing the defense contemplating this. We shall see.
 
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Christianity Today has a podcast, Quick to Listen, that touched on this topic this week. The main focus of the episode is that spirituality and psycholgy have few, if any, points of intersection. Thats a tragedy, considering that the two disciplines can, and should, greatly inform one another, and the world can benefit from it.
 
I do personally believe aspie's have a black and white approach when it comes to right and wrong. Very little or no grey.

I like @Judge's comment about blame and judgement.

I'm not aware of all of the facts and so will speculate that young man blamed several different people for his circumstances.
He didn't just happen to find a weapon, shoot his mother and day dream his way to a school and act upon deamonic voices.

Didn't anyone notice a young man with a fully loaded weapon wandering along the street making his way to school? Did anyone call the police?
Or was he fully aware he'd have to conceal this weapon until he reached his intended destination? Less the public and police force would prevent him carrying out his plan?
 
Did anyone take action before the fact? Apparently so. To no avail. :(



On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBI’s Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.

Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life. The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami Field Office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken.

We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on January 5. The information was not provided to the Miami Field Office, and no further investigation was conducted at that time.

FBI Director Christopher Wray said:

“We are still investigating the facts. I am committed to getting to the bottom of what happened in this particular matter, as well as reviewing our processes for responding to information that we receive from the public. It’s up to all Americans to be vigilant, and when members of the public contact us with concerns, we must act properly and quickly.

“We have spoken with victims and families, and deeply regret the additional pain this causes all those affected by this horrific tragedy. All of the men and women of the FBI are dedicated to keeping the American people safe, and are relentlessly committed to improving all that we do and how we do it.”

FBI Statement on the Shooting in Parkland, Florida — FBI
 
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I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the medication they put him on had something to do with it, some mind altering drugs in the past have proven to be the actual cause of similar massacres, E.g. Paroxetine (brands names Paxil or Seraxat), for instance there was a man acquitted of killing his wife and kids while under the influence of this dangerous drug and there was numerous law suits in the USA. Yet it is still sometimes prescribed in the UK and I know how dangerous it is from how it adversely changed me when I was wrongfully prescribed it after the doctors stated that my untreated under-active thyroid + sleep apnea and the severe fatigue it caused was only depression until much later when the damage was done (I'd also lost my job by then). I also dangerously felt invincible while also violent despite being one of the most placid people you could meet normally, in fact it's a long story, but the drug was very detrimental to my life and I should never have been put on it, there was a solicitors interested in suing for people in the UK too that I got involved with, but unfortunately it never came to anything unlike the USA. I can therefore say for a fact that it is a very dangerous drug, but corrupt pharmaceutical companies will still continue to push it knowing damn well what it can do to people as well as many other dangerous and addictive drugs, they even sometimes "sponsor" the media to be biased (I read about this in a CNN story) and have very expensive lawyers to protect them while they make $Billions out of other people's misery.

As far as autism is concerned, it's unlikely to be directly the cause. It maybe indirectly since this may have caused him to end up being treated for mental health in the first place, often a slippery slope. People on the higher functioning end of the autistic spectrum know what is right or wrong in extreme circumstances such as killing, in fact I think even my brothers on the lower end of the autistic spectrum who can't count or tell the time would know it's wrong to physically hurt someone, although they may not understand that a gun kills and what killing actually means. In much lessor circumstances where there's grey areas some autistic people might not realise they're doing something wrong until they're informed when most NTs understand, but they're not likely to do anything purposely wrong any more often than an NT.

Edit: Obviously we still get good and bad people however that are both autistic and NT, with many you could argue that it's related to their upbringing and this maybe partly the case, but I also think that it's often at least partly built in the genes. I say this because I remember a neighbour of my parents who adopted a son from a baby who I watched grow up as I did, he came from a bad family background, but he was brought up in a proper loving and caring home, in fact his adopted parents were lovely and did everything they could for him. As he got older however he still started stealing and getting involved in other crime, he soon wanted to get involved in drugs including selling them and no matter how much his loving parents tried he ended up in and out of juvenile detention and then adult prison as he got older, I believe his parents were very sadly fighting a losing battle because it was in his genes, but perhaps he could have turned out even worse still without a good upbringing, a murderer even. This can in my opinion affect both autistic and NTs equally. That said there are examples of brothers or sisters where one turns out evil while another is good with exactly the same upbringing and parents, this implies that there are occasionally just evil souls.

Edit 2: It doesn't help when people are told that killing humans is wrong when they watch the news and hear about wars, killing and fighting all the time. It's also apparently okay for the leaders to order other people to kill while also financing armies and weapons to help them do this more efficiently. Then we all know that powerful governments assassinate people and then there's the death penalty that is "legal" murder in my opinion, apparently it's perfectly okay to kill then too. Now guns are mainly designed to kill, especially people, yet they are legal for many people to have in the USA, this is also contradictory and they're more likely to be easily accessable when someone "loses it" or has a breakdown. Killing is wrong FULL STOP, no exceptions.
 
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I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the medication they put him on had something to do with it, some mind altering drugs in the past have proven to be the actual cause of similar massacres, E.g. Paroxetine (brands names Paxil or Seraxat), for instance there was a man acquitted of killing his wife and kids while under the influence of this dangerous drug and there was numerous law suits in the USA. Yet it is still sometimes prescribed in the UK and I know how dangerous it is from how it adversely changed me when I was wrongfully prescribed it after the doctors stated that my untreated under-active thyroid + sleep apnea and the severe fatigue it caused was only depression until much later when the damage was done (I'd also lost my job by then). I also dangerously felt invincible while also violent despite being one of the most placid people you could meet normally, in fact it's a long story, but the drug was very detrimental to my life and I should never have been put on it, there was a solicitors interested in suing for people in the UK too that I got involved with, but unfortunately it never came to anything unlike the USA. I can therefore say for a fact that it is a very dangerous drug, but corrupt pharmaceutical companies will still continue to push it knowing damn well what it can do to people as well as many other dangerous and addictive drugs, they even sometimes "sponsor" the media to be biased (I read about this in a CNN story) and have very expensive lawyers to protect them while they make $Billions out of other people's misery.

As far as autism is concerned, it's unlikely to be directly the cause. It maybe indirectly since this may have caused him to end up being treated for mental health in the first place, often a slippery slope. People on the higher functioning end of the autistic spectrum know what is right or wrong in extreme circumstances such as killing, in fact I think even my brothers on the lower end of the autistic spectrum who can't count or tell the time would know it's wrong to physically hurt someone, although they may not understand that a gun kills and what killing actually means. In much lessor circumstances where there's grey areas they might not realise they're doing something wrong until they're informed, but they're not likely to do anything purposely wrong any more often than an NT.

Meh, I'm on tablets for anxiety, would I go out into the middle of the Meadowhall Centre waving a gun about? Nope! They'd lock me up and chuck the key in the River! Although I have previously walked round there wearing a Batman suit!
 
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