Difficulty With Social Codes

[Progster]

I used to think I liked being alone and that I wasn't depressed. I learned that when people have been depressed since they were a baby or a toddler, it's all they know, so they aren't aware they are depressed. I thought my symptoms of depression (low energy, being unmotivated, processing information slowly, flat affect) were genetic until they went away after I changed the way I think. If you took a quick online screening test for depression, I think there's a good chance it would say you're depressed. I think most people on this site who feel content being alone are actually depressed but just don't realize it.

10 question screening for depression - Depression Test

In your copy-and-paste answer to my post, you're completely missing my point. The point is that you say that you say that everyone gets depressed when alone, but that's simply not true. Not everyone who is alone gets depressed.

 

[SDRSpark]

It's not unusual. To be honest when I talk to people unless I wear the mask that answers the expectations as I've cracked some social codes throught the years... There's no way I'd be interesting anyone. I don't mean anyone at all, I mean very very very few people, unless others are interested by using something I know or share a similar way of relating to the world (doesn't often happen). It's the same since primary school to be honest. Not knowing how to "play" and "enjoy" and "relate" to others while it's about games and indistinct social untold rules, not able to spend time with an other because it just ended up silent (don't know what to say/do). But I had suddenly friends inside the classroom because I could explain stuffs we were doing and usually (not all the time) was faster. Outside of the classroom, I'm no interesting unless I put the mask of what I know people like, become somewhat funny and enthousiast about things that don't interest me at all.
To make friends, to be honest you have to make yourself interesting and be interested in things in them that you don't believe are interesting. At least that's what I learned, I'm not saying it's THE truth, but that's how I deal with that. Learn about subjects that interest others, manufacture a point of view about those subjects, and try to have a "back and forth conversation" and notice what the other one's personality is like - it's not like yours. But yes it's tiring and it asks a lot of learning and observation about human behaviour. It's not natural to me.

Having reliable people around you who can explain to you a situation or even warn you about something is important, at least it was very important when I was younger. I made a lot of mistakes I didn't understand (when learning to mask and do what NT people would, for example I learned to look at people in the eyes and smile when meeting them, but as I'm a woman it was frequently happening that men thought I was flirting while I wasn't, and then they started flirting with me and I wasn't because I didn't understand what it meant socially. I had difficulties understanding that they were flirting until being trapped and the situation being already difficult to get out of. That's an example, I have plenty of stuffs I had to manage to go backwards because of learning to appear as "being open - enjoyable", but not understanding the social situations that follows!).
Difficulty with social codes coupled with my determination to "be normal" and "make friends" and "have relationships with people" has put me into a high number of weird situations because althrough I was playing as if I was the same, I still didn't get other people and what they were doing at all. To be honest, what I'm lacking was even bigger than anything I could've imagine was actually going on. I'm sure it's still the case.

I was trying to be nice and socialize "correctly" but was completely clueless about what happened around me.

I have a safety rule, that's not to trust anything people say unless they FACTUALLY were reliable many times in the past. If they were unreliable, I trust that they are unreliable, not what they're saying. I used to trust what people say too easily. Now, I rely on facts and my own judgement, I make no excuses unless I am willing to (I never feel forced anymore), that's my safety rule. I won't trust anyone I don't know to be reliable, and I won't trust anyone who has proven himself/herself to not be reliable. I don't trust what other people tell me about their feelings. I trust their actions, the facts that prove their feelings or invalidate them. Throwing a glass of water in my face because you love me isn't love. Sorry. Fact comes first, always, not the justification of a bad action. That's an other thing I understood too litterally my entire life, "there's something between us" (and other expressions referring to that). No, there's not. There's how I relate to you and to the world, and there's how you relate to me and to the world. It's not mutual nor reciprocical, there's no equal feeling "between" two people. I didn't even realize that I understood this saying litterally, but I based my relationships, even friendships, on something that might be between us. But it's a metaphor, it doesn't actually exist. It was confusing my social understanding a lot !!! I thought I had to work on maintaining a link that actually doesn't exist. There is the way I relate to an other person and the way the other person relates to me through. But taking the metaphor of a "link" too litterally was making me misunderstand social codes/actions a lot. I don't know what else I'm doing/thinking upon a too litteral understanding of things that don't exist to be honest. Certainly plenty.
I don't yield to tantrums, intimidation, and so on. An other thing I didn't understand about social codes. Althrough I can feel bad about something because I honestly do, other people... play. Yup. Couldn't believe it. It was everywhere in movies, TV shows, anime, warnings in children's stories but I was super blind to it. It helps me now to avoid assuming anything about other people - accepting that we're really different and I can't understand them.
Whenever I make the assumption that I understand an other person, I'm wrong. That was also impairing my ability to understand social codes : I thought at some point that I did understand more or less. Lol. I don't.

That's the main issue I have with social codes, my own safety. Isolation is secondary now.

I have a lot of issues with misread intent...although most of the time, it's not a problem unless someone wants to make it one (which has happened a few times). I figure I have no idea how much stuff I miss.

I realized recently that I follow scripts without realizing I was following scripts. I know "the lines" but I don't understand the intent behind them...unfortunately this can lead to a lot of misunderstandings because everyone assumes an intent that usually goes with that script that I'm completely oblivious to. (A harmless example of this is football jokes. I don't know anything about football, but I've learned that the "standard" football joke is to make fun of the Dallas Cowboys. Now, I have no clue why the Cowboys are seemingly universally despised, but they are, and I can blend in by making fun of them. Of course nothing bad has ever happened because someone mistakenly thought I know something about football...)

 

[Thinx]

Im supposed to be a normal. Although, lol, I’m not good at it sometimes.
If I understand what you mean by the term “social codes”, they are hard to follow along with, even for normal people. And they can be stressful for normal people.
Sometimes there are communications or there is information that can be had from people, but it’s not spoken.
The classic example is that big Thanksgiving Dinner where lots of family and old relatives show up. Everyone is smiling hard. But there’s all those mean things everyone did to each other years ago. Or she doesn’t like her sisters husband. Or the family doesn’t approve of the way they let that autistic kid run around (thats the one i would get. Why dont you dicipline her?).
It feels to me, inside my head, like these types of messages are processed in some subconsious spots in your brain. It can get exhausting. Very brain exausting so maybe it takes alot of energy.

It also can be nice things, like flirting. Thats fun. That sort of gives you energy.

But the info is gleaned from random fleeting things, like voice inflections, eye movements, body movements. Its not alot to go on, and can be easily misread.

And people that spend alot of time in that domain? I dont think they are enjoyable to be around usually. I’m like, hey, say what you mean. Its easier and honest.

Autism being at least 50% genetic, parents can sometimes find they have some high autistic traits too, or Aspergers, as what you describe does sound that way at times. Just a thought.

People with autism are neurotypical. There is no scientific evidence that people with autism have different brains than anyone else. I used to struggle with social cues but I overcame it and don't have that problem anymore.

Oh give it a rest, please! There's all kinds of research evidence appearing on this now, and it supports the experience that a lot of us have that our processes in interacting and processing interactions are different from what is usual. It's a common and central identified aspect of autism. If it were easily curable for most people, that would not be the case. The qualified people who have worked on this and all the qualified therapist's would have cured a massive amount of their clients, after all, you reckon it only takes some CBT videos and less than a years therapy. But hey, the whole scientific community around autism can't seem to agree with you on this...

And as Autism is understood to be at least 50% genetic, and highly hereditable, involving over 70 different genes, I think we'll be hearing more about these complex issues as research continues.

In terms of your own progress which you routinely offer as if it is persuasive evidence to refute some other individuals experience, what are you thinking this proves? Who knows whether your brain or experience is typical? Judging by responses here and on threads all over this autism forum, you're not at all typical, have you noticed?

Firstly, autism is currently behaviourally diagnosed. Any individual may have been misdiagnosed, as you noted you felt you had been, so your experience isn't showing anything about autism. And even if you are autistic, you are one individual. A fairly untypical one around here.

I've never heard a qualified practitioner of CBT suggest it suits everyone, because they know it doesn't. During their training they look at the research base of the approaches, and like people in training on all other well performing therapies, they learn that no one approach suits all, different therapies have different strengths, as many people here have found.

Secondly, although an individual may feel they have progressed, others may not always see any evidence that that is the case. For example, an individual who is unable to tolerate views other than their own, may say they get along fine with others and have no problems in communication, yet constantly present evidence that this is not the case.

Eg, by offering facile computer links to little tests that are supposed to prove to someone who is highly intelligent and has already examined the evidence, that they are depressed! How rude. Someone who does this clearly doesn't have good skills in getting along with others. Or they're a troll.

 

[Ezra]

I used to think I liked being alone and that I wasn't depressed. I learned that when people have been depressed since they were a baby or a toddler, it's all they know, so they aren't aware they are depressed. I thought my symptoms of depression (low energy, being unmotivated, processing information slowly, flat affect) were genetic until they went away after I changed the way I think. If you took a quick online screening test for depression, I think there's a good chance it would say you're depressed. I think most people on this site who feel content being alone are actually depressed but just don't realize it.

10 question screening for depression - Depression Test




I used to feel that way. I suppressed my emotions and convinced myself I was content so I didn't feel lonely. After I changed my thinking, I stopped suppressing my emotions and I started needing to talk to people more often.

Due to my autism I have always had a psychologist. I have been thoroughly evaluated by them. And by my mother as well who has a PsyD, which she earned in her goal to understand and help me with my autism better. So I have a very good handle on where I am at when it comes to depression and everything else about myself psychologically. Maybe for you things like processing information slowly and flat affect were a result of clinical depression, but in my case it is a result of my autism. I have a very good outlook on life and a healthy self-esteem according to many evaluations over the years. No one has ever concluded that I suffer from clinical depression. This is why you can not base everyone elses situation on your personal experiences and your layperson's unqualified self-evaluation via what you picked up on the internet. That is why I refer to it as amateur, subjective and anecdotal. I know that sounds harsh, but I think it needs to be put in its place when you basically keep telling other people what is wrong with them.

BTW based on the slew of personal info that online test is asking for, it looks like a marketing tool to me. I wonder what advertising bots I just invited into my computer by clicking that link.

 

[Els]

I have a lot of issues with misread intent...although most of the time, it's not a problem unless someone wants to make it one (which has happened a few times). I figure I have no idea how much stuff I miss.

I realized recently that I follow scripts without realizing I was following scripts. I know "the lines" but I don't understand the intent behind them...unfortunately this can lead to a lot of misunderstandings because everyone assumes an intent that usually goes with that script that I'm completely oblivious to. (A harmless example of this is football jokes. I don't know anything about football, but I've learned that the "standard" football joke is to make fun of the Dallas Cowboys. Now, I have no clue why the Cowboys are seemingly universally despised, but they are, and I can blend in by making fun of them. Of course nothing bad has ever happened because someone mistakenly thought I know something about football...)

I have the exact same thing, I see exactly what you're talking about. I also catch myself doing that, and I'm trying to stop, unlearn a bit, be more authentic. I think there's a balance to be found and also the right people to share time with.

I also noticed I feel more comfortable talking on the pc/messenger/phone messages (written). There are less confusing stuffs happening with expressions, tone of voice, body language, no noise all around, I find most people WAY MORE DIRECT and clear understandable on a written message; people seem to focus more on what is said this way (which is how I communicate in general, I communicate about what is said, not what's not said). I also have the time to answer as I wish and think about a question and be calm rather than as it's expected in real life... without the person judging that it takes me time or that I'm slower or that I'm not behaving correctly or that I look sad and unwelcoming or whatever. I also worry less about analyzing the other person and trying to understand things I clearly don't get. I think I get the subtext and untold things, but oh no I don't, never at the level of most people I've seen around me - unless I learned how a system works the hard way. Also in talking through pc or phone, there's no outside noise also and that helps me to focus without having to block all the stimulations too, it's less tiring. I find this kind of communication a lot more peaceful. It doesn't replace real contacts but it helps me to be less scripted, less anxious, less overwhelmed and more authentic. I really try to analyze and get rid of some of my scripted ways to behave because they don't even fit me and who I am as a person. One step at a time

 

[SDRSpark]

I have the exact same thing, I see exactly what you're talking about. I also catch myself doing that, and I'm trying to stop, unlearn a bit, be more authentic. I think there's a balance to be found and also the right people to share time with.

I also noticed I feel more comfortable talking on the pc/messenger/phone messages (written). There are less confusing stuffs happening with expressions, tone of voice, body language, no noise all around, I find most people WAY MORE DIRECT and clear understandable on a written message; people seem to focus more on what is said this way (which is how I communicate in general, I communicate about what is said, not what's not said). I also have the time to answer as I wish and think about a question and be calm rather than as it's expected in real life... without the person judging that it takes me time or that I'm slower or that I'm not behaving correctly or that I look sad and unwelcoming or whatever. I also worry less about analyzing the other person and trying to understand things I clearly don't get. I think I get the subtext and untold things, but oh no I don't, never at the level of most people I've seen around me - unless I learned how a system works the hard way. Also in talking through pc or phone, there's no outside noise also and that helps me to focus without having to block all the stimulations too, it's less tiring. I find this kind of communication a lot more peaceful. It doesn't replace real contacts but it helps me to be less scripted, less anxious, less overwhelmed and more authentic. I really try to analyze and get rid of some of my scripted ways to behave because they don't even fit me and who I am as a person. One step at a time

I agree about text communication. It's a lot easier for me, too. Though I don't have too much issue with people misinterpreting body language (with a few exceptions) - that I know of at least (to be honest I have no idea what people think that they don't say.) There have been a few notable incidents that really stuck in my mind and make me distrustful of anyone who claims to be able to read body language - these people screwed it up so badly that I wonder if it was actually a deliberate attempt to mess up my life.

 

[Ezra]

People with autism are neurotypical. There is no scientific evidence that people with autism have different brains than anyone else.

According to whom? Which qualified recognized experts in the field of autism research said that?

I used to struggle with social cues but I overcame it and don't have that problem anymore.

Again, according to whom?

 

[Thinx]

I don't actually have a lot of body language unless I work to act as if I do, and that doesn't always turn out well, and I would rather that my difference be accepted as part of a varied way people can be. Many photos of me from childhood show me standing with my arms at my sides, observing or looking away. Sometimes I smiled in a weird way as asked to smile, or just naturally I had difficulty producing the required expression.

 

[WildCat]

And people that spend alot of time in that domain? I dont think they are enjoyable to be around usually. I’m like, hey, say what you mean. Its easier and honest.

I'll agree with that. Funny how some people on the spectrum do spend a lot of time in that domain and love to spread the word around about it.

 

[Els]

I agree about text communication. It's a lot easier for me, too. Though I don't have too much issue with people misinterpreting body language (with a few exceptions) - that I know of at least (to be honest I have no idea what people think that they don't say.) There have been a few notable incidents that really stuck in my mind and make me distrustful of anyone who claims to be able to read body language - these people screwed it up so badly that I wonder if it was actually a deliberate attempt to mess up my life.

Well, for example : in real life I have to pay a lot of attention to how the person behaves to know if what we're talking about is boring for the other. In real life it's difficult for me to catch it on the moment and react adequately, I feel I have to react a lot faster and be much more subtile about untold things, which is very stressful for me. Same with me saying something that hurt someone but the person not saying anything about it and waiting from me to get that and being even more angry because I don't.
I feel I have to be extremely alert and react very fast about it. Through messages, I just read again and I get it easier, I feel it's less cloudy, I have time to think, it's doesn't recquiere me to be very focused and alert. An other example, I went at the dentist once and the guy asked me "why are you coming for?". I just couldn't understand the question and manage to answer "normally" in time, I was like "Well, because I have a problem (?)". If it had been written I would have been calmer and have more time to figure out that what the person wanted to know wasn't why I'm coming litterally, but what problem I had. But that's not what was asked. I understand what is asked, I struggle to understand it means something else.

I agree about people reading body language. I don't know what happened to you about it through. But my body language doesn't mean at all what I've read it's supposed to mean when people act a certain way. I don't think it's science.

 

[Matthias]

Due to my autism I have always had a psychologist. I have been thoroughly evaluated by them. And by my mother as well who has a PsyD, which she earned in her goal to understand and help me with my autism better. So I have a very good handle on where I am at when it comes to depression and everything else about myself psychologically. Maybe for you things like processing information slowly and flat affect were a result of clinical depression, but in my case it is a result of my autism. I have a very good outlook on life and a healthy self-esteem according to many evaluations over the years. No one has ever concluded that I suffer from clinical depression.

That's to be expected. When someone is diagnosed with autism, symptoms of depression that are part of the autism diagnosis will be ignored. That's why they concluded you're not depressed. Until science finds another cause of processing information slowly or a flat affect, they can't say it's not due to a form of chronic low level depression called dysthymia.

BTW based on the slew of personal info that online test is asking for, it looks like a marketing tool to me. I wonder what advertising bots I just invited into my computer by clicking that link.

All of the information is optional. I skipped all of it and hit the submit button at the bottom of the page to get the results.

 

[SDRSpark]

I don't actually have a lot of body language unless I work to act as if I do, and that doesn't always turn out well, and I would rather that my difference be accepted as part of a varied way people can be. Many photos of me from childhood show me standing with my arms at my sides, observing or looking away. Sometimes I smiled in a weird way as asked to smile, or just naturally I had difficulty producing the required expression.

LOL Oh man, as a child I could NOT smile on command. I don't know if I smiled naturally or not...I learned to smile as a teenager, because I tried out for cheerleading and had to smile, so I practiced in front of a mirror.

As a child, though, I would be told to smile for a photo and I would make this weird teeth-baring grimace like I was attempting to imitate a vicious animal or something. And my mom would be like "no, SMILE!" and I would GRRR even harder. I just had no idea how to make my face do the thing. There are photos somewhere. Looking back on it, it was hilarious and a clear sign that my issues started very early in life.

I agree about people reading body language. I don't know what happened to you about it through. But my body language doesn't mean at all what I've read it's supposed to mean when people act a certain way. I don't think it's science.

I think the same thing every time I read those articles. I don't know if they're legit, or just pop-psych bull excrement...but I know a lot of people (especially in the business world) take them seriously. I always come off as "nervous". But I'm not. Voice inflection is another one, people think I'm freaking out when I'm just making conversation. It's frustrating. I legitimately have no idea what I sound like...if someone were to say "do you have any idea what you sound like?" the answer would be a truthful and resounding "absolutely not".

That said, I do have body language, and if you know me well enough, you can definitely pick up on it. But you have to know my unique body language.

 

[Matthias]

According to whom? Which qualified recognized experts in the field of autism research said that?

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If you're aware of any science showing that autistic people have different brains than other people, feel free to post it.

Again, according to whom?

An expert.

 

[Ezra]

That's to be expected. When someone is diagnosed with autism, symptoms of depression that are part of the autism diagnosis will be ignored. That's why they concluded you're not depressed. Until science finds another cause of processing information slowly or a flat affect, they can't say it's not due to a form of chronic low level depression called dysthymia.

According to whom? Cite what you are saying so that we know it isn't stuff you are making up off the top of your head.

 

[Ezra]

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If you're aware of any science showing that autistic people have different brains than other people, feel free to post it.

You claimed that "People with autism are neurotypical. There is no scientific evidence that people with autism have different brains than anyone else." and I am asking you provide proof of that claim.

An expert.

So all the experts who have evaluated me are wrong, but yours is right eh?

 

[Thinx]

There's plenty of accessible research about this, and articles to download. Try, Characteristics of Brains with ASD Structure, Function and Connectivity across the lifespan, 2015, Experimental Neurobiology, it's downloadable and gives a summary of some recent research. This research is going hand in hand with the genetic research on autism.

Quote: Over the past decades neuro imaging studies have provided considerable insights underlying neurobiological mechanisms of ASD.. Many studies have shown dysfunctional activation in critical areas of social communication and restricted repetitive behaviours... Findings from neuro imaging studies have led to the understanding of structural and functional abnormalities of the brain development in individuals with ASD, and the genetic bases of the brain development. Synaptic deficits mediated by genetic factors in ASD not only affect their anatomical structure but also affect the aspects of local neuronal circuitry and the functions of brain regions.

The paper also lists a number of other free access papers in its bibliography, which is extensive, and gives links to these.

It's been clear for a long time that autism relates to brain difference, it's a central focus of autism research, it doesn't have to be proved except to someone who is trolling this forum, interfering with constructive discussions with denials of the condition.

 

[Progster]

When someone is diagnosed with autism, symptoms of depression that are part of the autism diagnosis will be ignored.

Depression and autism are two completely different and independent diagnoses. A person may also have depression as a comorbid of their autism, but symptoms of depression are not part of the autism diagnostic criteria.

 

[SteveNomad]

...I haven't really read the lengthy responses to me on this thread because it's hard, with just this little phone and the way text is reproduced here and my not-great eyes and lack of perscription glasses, to read these blocks of text.

 

[Ezra]

Depression and autism are two completely different and independent diagnoses. A person may also have depression as a comorbid of their autism, but symptoms of depression are not part of the autism diagnostic criteria.

There have been boatloads of people on autism forums who have stated that they have separate diagnosis of autism and depression.

In order for FormerlyAutistic/Matthias to be correct, no one with a diagnosis of autism would also have a diagnosis of depression.

 

[groundhogy]

This seems straight out of the famous Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People.

“To make friends, to be honest you have to make yourself interesting and be interested in things in them that you don't believe are interesting. At least that's what I learned, I'm not saying it's THE truth, but that's how I deal with that. Learn about subjects that interest others, manufacture a point of view about those subjects, and try to have a "back and forth conversation" and notice what the other one's personality is like - it's not like yours. But yes it's tiring and it asks a lot of learning and observation about human behaviour. It's not natural to me.”