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Cops

i never really understand the issue about profiling,
as long as it is based on objective data and unbiased laws

do we send tax inspectors to the poorest neighbourhoods to investigate offshore tax evasion, not likely

it's like saying that if you are looking for a deer, you must also check in the city centre of new york as well as in the forest outside of town

i call it the efficient use of limited resources

i got pulled over in the US once, followed instructions, did as i was told, admitted i was speeding, gave my details, received the fine, paid it, no problem whatsoever
i was respectful towards the police officer and he was respectful to me
 
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We all profile people we see... Maybe not as police... When you are in public you make judgments on people you... I'm not saying it's but it's being human...
 
We all profile people we see... Maybe not as police... When you are in public you make judgments on people you... I'm not saying it's but it's being human...
Yeah. Certainly true. Especially when going through our ordinary lives. For example, I wouldn't date a woman if she told me that she was a man before. I'm straight, and a woman who used to be a man is still a man to me. But I WILL date a woman who has the word "female" on her birth certificate. But, even then. There are other factors I go through when considering if she's somebody I'd want to date. I wouldn't date a Mormon woman due to the increased risk of her cheating on me. As a (non-denominational) Christian, that kinda stuff doesn't fly with me. That's why I date my girlfriend, who is kind to me, not a Mormon, and was born female. Also, average law-abiding citizens have a list of who they want to make friends/be associated with. Most of us wouldn't want to go up, talk to, and be friends with a person who is openly carrying a handgun and looks high and/or drunk. So, yeah, I guess that profiling is something done by everybody, even if we don't realize we are doing so.
 
Yeah. Certainly true. Especially when going through our ordinary lives. For example, I wouldn't date a woman if she told me that she was a man before. I'm straight, and a woman who used to be a man is still a man to me. But I WILL date a woman who has the word "female" on her birth certificate. But, even then. There are other factors I go through when considering if she's somebody I'd want to date. I wouldn't date a Mormon woman due to the increased risk of her cheating on me. As a (non-denominational) Christian, that kinda stuff doesn't fly with me. That's why I date my girlfriend, who is kind to me, not a Mormon, and was born female. Also, average law-abiding citizens have a list of who they want to make friends/be associated with. Most of us wouldn't want to go up, talk to, and be friends with a person who is openly carrying a handgun and looks high and/or drunk. So, yeah, I guess that profiling is something done by everybody, even if we don't realize we are doing so.
And on the spectrum we probably are even more particular because these are things we just know we couldn't live with - I could never date a guy with a very southern accent. Sorry, I just couldn't get past it. And I'm with you on the other stuff. I don't date - but when I did...
But I didn't know that Mormon women are know for cheating. I'm actually very surprised to hear that.
 
And on the spectrum we probably are even more particular because these are things we just know we couldn't live with - I could never date a guy with a very southern accent. Sorry, I just couldn't get past it. And I'm with you on the other stuff. I don't date - but when I did...
Cool. Thanks for agreeing with me and understanding! Also, I kinda want more details. What you're saying is kinda interesting.
 
i never really understand the issue about profiling,
as long as it is based on objective data and unbiased laws

do we send tax inspectors to the poorest neighbourhoods to investigate offshore tax evasion, not likely

it's like saying that if you are looking for a deer, you must also check in the city centre of new york as well as in the forest outside of town

i call it the efficient use of limited resources

i got pulled over in the US once, followed instructions, did as i was told, admitted i was speeding, gave my details, received the fine, paid it, no problem whatsoever
i was respectful towards the police officer and he was respectful to me

Unless we're talking about something else and I'm just confused, I think the main problem people have has to do with racism.

"In 2016, there were 1,608 black prisoners for every 100,000 black adults – more than five times the imprisonment rate for whites (274 per 100,000) and nearly double the rate for Hispanics (856 per 100,000).

Gap between number of blacks, whites in prison narrows

"Despite roughly equal usage rates, Blacks are 3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana."

The War on Marijuana in Black and White

Many years ago, I was driving slowly through LA to get to a concert, high on ecstasy and with more drugs on the floor of my car, because I'm stupid. But I'm also white! I drove past a cop hassling some angry looking black guy, the cop nodded and smiled as he looked into probably my freakishly dilated eyes, and I went to the concert!

Is this all related to profiling or is it something else?
 
Cool. Thanks for agreeing with me and understanding! Also, I kinda want more details. What you're saying is kinda interesting.
Since you read my comment before I edited it I'll re-say it. I was surprised to hear that Mormon women are known for cheating and very surprised to hear that. Ok -
Because of our intolerance to certain things it's harder to get past things that bother us about a person as well. Someone with a high shrill voice or someone that makes noises with everything they do, etc. It's going to send us into meltdowns. :) (I know. :) )
 
Unless we're talking about something else and I'm just confused, I think the main problem people have has to do with racism.

"In 2016, there were 1,608 black prisoners for every 100,000 black adults – more than five times the imprisonment rate for whites (274 per 100,000) and nearly double the rate for Hispanics (856 per 100,000).

Gap between number of blacks, whites in prison narrows

"Despite roughly equal usage rates, Blacks are 3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana."

The War on Marijuana in Black and White

Many years ago, I was driving slowly through LA to get to a concert, high on ecstasy and with more drugs on the floor of my car, because I'm stupid. But I'm also white! I drove past a cop hassling some angry looking black guy, the cop nodded and smiled as he looked into probably my freakishly dilated eyes, and I went to the concert!

Is this all related to profiling or is it something else?
something else - suspicious actions and not cooperating. Not wanting to get into political debate or anything - avoid those like the plague and one of the reasons I feel safe here. But when I was still married to my ex - (the one that's gay and a con artist) there was a time that I was hiding from the police because I didn't want to lose my babies and my husband had me convinced that I would, even while trying to prove my innocence in the stuff he was doing - long story. So at one time, my sister in law (from NY city with a NY city attitude) had gone to my husband's storage unit and the police had been watching and seeing her, they thought she was me. She didn't have id and she was cussing them out and they had her on the ground. But when they did finally catch up to me (I knew they were coming), I met them outside (away from the kids). I was very cooperative and they were actually apologetic and helpful. (By the way, any charges was dismissed against me and I was completely innocent and cleared of any of my husbands wrong doings. The FBI said I was the biggest victim of all.) And when I was in a cell there was another white girl whose wrists were red from the handcuffs being so tight - but she was also being uncooperative. I can tell more similar stories, but I'll never believe it's always about race, but rather attitude and actions (though I do realize there's some bad cops out there, most of them are not).
 
Never really had an issue with police due to my Autism, myself. They have their job to do and I respect them for that.
 
something else - suspicious actions and not cooperating. Not wanting to get into political debate or anything - avoid those like the plague and one of the reasons I feel safe here. But when I was still married to my ex - (the one that's gay and a con artist) there was a time that I was hiding from the police because I didn't want to lose my babies and my husband had me convinced that I would, even while trying to prove my innocence in the stuff he was doing - long story. So at one time, my sister in law (from NY city with a NY city attitude) had gone to my husband's storage unit and the police had been watching and seeing her, they thought she was me. She didn't have id and she was cussing them out and they had her on the ground. But when they did finally catch up to me (I knew they were coming), I met them outside (away from the kids). I was very cooperative and they were actually apologetic and helpful. (By the way, any charges was dismissed against me and I was completely innocent and cleared of any of my husbands wrong doings. The FBI said I was the biggest victim of all.) And when I was in a cell there was another white girl whose wrists were red from the handcuffs being so tight - but she was also being uncooperative. I can tell more similar stories, but I'll never believe it's always about race, but rather attitude and actions (though I do realize there's some bad cops out there, most of them are not).

I disagree and believe it's all about race, but I agree about not getting into a big debate about it. ;)

The police treat him like a criminal, the doctors treat him like a drug addict and a lot of people are afraid of him. Why? Because he is a big guy with tattoos. I know that he bought a lot of this on himself with all the tattoos. However, judging someone by how they look is almost always wrong.

I feel like the last two sentences contradict each other. You admit that judging someone by how they look is wrong, but also say he brought it upon himself with all the tattoos. I don't think failing to conform to ignorance means to bring it upon yourself. Is the idea that we should understand the senseless bias against something like tattoos and then adjust our behavior accordingly?
 
something else - suspicious actions and not cooperating. Not wanting to get into political debate or anything - avoid those like the plague and one of the reasons I feel safe here. But when I was still married to my ex - (the one that's gay and a con artist) there was a time that I was hiding from the police because I didn't want to lose my babies and my husband had me convinced that I would, even while trying to prove my innocence in the stuff he was doing - long story. So at one time, my sister in law (from NY city with a NY city attitude) had gone to my husband's storage unit and the police had been watching and seeing her, they thought she was me. She didn't have id and she was cussing them out and they had her on the ground. But when they did finally catch up to me (I knew they were coming), I met them outside (away from the kids). I was very cooperative and they were actually apologetic and helpful. (By the way, any charges was dismissed against me and I was completely innocent and cleared of any of my husbands wrong doings. The FBI said I was the biggest victim of all.) And when I was in a cell there was another white girl whose wrists were red from the handcuffs being so tight - but she was also being uncooperative. I can tell more similar stories, but I'll never believe it's always about race, but rather attitude and actions (though I do realize there's some bad cops out there, most of them are not).
That sounds terrible! I'm glad you're no longer with that awful man!
 
I can tell more similar stories, but I'll never believe it's always about race, but rather attitude and actions (though I do realize there's some bad cops out there, most of them are not).

It's never about attitudes and actions until AFTER a target has been profiled and selected based on race or whatever other criteria the person doing the targeting is using to misjudge people. If the cop (or school principal or other person in charge) is using unbiased legitimate criteria for selecting who to stop and question and is attempting to do their job properly, then the encounter can be civil and fair. If the person initiating the incident does so because of their own or their boss's personal hate and prejudice then it will likely not be.

Is this all related to profiling or is it something else?

The profiling is always done first. Then after the person who fits the profile is selected, then the one doing the profiling approaches their target. At that point, if the targetted person who is being harrassed is cooperative and subservient, the encounter will go easier on the targeted person. If the targeted person tries to defend oneself against the unfair unwarranted attack then the attacker will do more harm. The innocent victim is not at fault when targeted by a bully.

Authority figures don't select people of certain preferred demographics, just the targeted demographics, so the attitudes and actions of the majority are irrelevant, as they NEVER have to chose a response to the attack. Only the minority targets do. That's why the statistics you mentioned are so disproportionate.

However, judging someone by how they look is almost always wrong.
Approaching someone to accuse them of wrongdoing, after only a mere casual glance, is always wrong. You could walk away from a lot of great friendships doing that, at which point you are only hurting yourself. Everybody has the right to hate for whatever stupid reason one choses, but no one has the right to harm anybody for just how they look.
 
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will go easier on the targeted person.
Eeeeeeennhh...
Sometimes.
I've witnessed some really horrific crap, afterwards, something entirely fabricated ruins the targeted's life.
It's a tough job.
No doubt there.
More often than not, though, these days,
it seems more like an "us versus the public" thing.
Fact of the matter is, if it were easier to make a living, have an identity, even the presently low crime rate would tumble.

When someone's targeted, rather than
" Are they doing something wrong?", it becomes "Let's find out what they're doing wrong."
 
Unless we're talking about something else and I'm just confused, I think the main problem people have has to do with racism.

"In 2016, there were 1,608 black prisoners for every 100,000 black adults – more than five times the imprisonment rate for whites (274 per 100,000) and nearly double the rate for Hispanics (856 per 100,000).

Gap between number of blacks, whites in prison narrows

"Despite roughly equal usage rates, Blacks are 3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana."

The War on Marijuana in Black and White

Many years ago, I was driving slowly through LA to get to a concert, high on ecstasy and with more drugs on the floor of my car, because I'm stupid. But I'm also white! I drove past a cop hassling some angry looking black guy, the cop nodded and smiled as he looked into probably my freakishly dilated eyes, and I went to the concert!

Is this all related to profiling or is it something else?


One comment on your analogy with the black guy being 'harassed', you cannot know why he had been pulled over, the fact that he was pulled over in and of itself does not imply bias, it may have been justified, it may not have been - to assume he was being harassed without knowing why he had been pulled over actually implies a bias on your side

Like i said in my message, the statistics behind profiling and the laws behind the arrests have to be unbiased, otherwise it is racism, exactly like you said

To put it bluntly, if one group of people is overrepresented in a statistical population:
- then either the laws are biased against them, institutional racism
- the laws are unbiased, but bias is introduced while enforcing them, enforcement racism
- or the laws are unbiased, the enforcement are unbiased and the incarceration is justified but there must be an underlying reason that is causing the over representation but which is not inherently related to the law that led to their incarceration

when you see a clear overrepresentation of black prisoners in prisons, then people should try to better understand why that is and if racism is involved,

the racism i think is more indirect, laws are made by the representatives of the people,
that violent crime and the selling and buying of illegal drugs are a crime, are not a bad thing in my opinion, and personally i believe that the law should be enforced to the letter

where the problem starts in my opinion is that these crimes may conceivably be more prevalent in those parts of the society where long term poverty and the lack of opportunity have a painful and enduring impact on daily life and could conceivably drive people to theft or to fleeing reality in drugs, when this become a long term and generational phenomenon it becomes the new normal, a culture with winners and losers, not everyone would be stealing to feed their family, some would be doing it because it is very lucrative, which givers them power and a vested interest in resisting change and progress within the community itself, when people stop believing that an education can lead to a better life, then there is a problem

so the question in my opinion is: if racism were removed with regards to access to education and jobs, and if perceived value of an education and a regular job would be improved, would this 'correct' the statistics that the profiling is based on and result in a more balanced and representative prison population

this is why so much emphasis is put on education and access to jobs,
but it is not because the root causes of some crime (racisme ao) have not been solved,
resulting in a statistically accurate overrepresentation in a statistical population,
that the law should not be applied

arguably, no one would suggest splitting the budget to 'attack' the mass producers of drugs between Latin America on the one hand and Greenland on the other, that would just be considered the efficient use of funds to get a maximum result per dollar spent

but for the sake of clarity, of course racism should be condemned and prosecuted wherever it is found
 
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One comment on your analogy with the black guy being 'harassed', you cannot know why he had been pulled over, the fact that he was pulled over in and of itself does not imply bias, it may have been justified, it may not have been - to assume he was being harassed without knowing why he had been pulled over actually implies a bias on your side

Like i said in my message, the statistics behind profiling and the laws behind the arrests have to be unbiased, otherwise it is racism, exactly like you said

To put it bluntly, if one group of people is overrepresented in a statistical population:
- then either the laws are biased against them, institutional racism
- the laws are unbiased, but bias is introduced while enforcing them, enforcement racism
- or the laws are unbiased, the enforcement are unbiased and the incarceration is justified but there must be an underlying reason that is causing the over representation but which is not inherently related to the law that led to their incarceration

when you see a clear overrepresentation of black prisoners in prisons, then people should try to better understand why that is and if racism is involved,

the racism i think is more indirect, laws are made by the representatives of the people,
that violent crime and the selling and buying of illegal drugs are a crime, are not a bad thing in my opinion, and personally i believe that the law should be enforced to the letter

where the problem starts in my opinion is that these crimes may conceivably be more prevalent in those parts of the society where long term poverty and the lack of opportunity have a painful and enduring impact on daily life and could conceivably drive people to theft or to fleeing reality in drugs, when this become a long term and generational phenomenon it becomes the new normal, a culture with winners and losers, not everyone would be stealing to feed their family, some would be doing it because it is very lucrative, which givers them power and a vested interest in resisting change and progress within the community itself, when people stop believing that an education can lead to a better life, then there is a problem

so the question in my opinion is: if racism were removed with regards to access to education and jobs, and if perceived value of an education and a regular job would be improved, would this 'correct' the statistics that the profiling is based on and result in a more balanced and representative prison population

this is why so much emphasis is put on education and access to jobs,
but it is not because the root causes of some crime (racisme ao) have not been solved,
resulting in a statistically accurate overrepresentation in a statistical population,
that the law should not be applied

arguably, no one would suggest splitting the budget to 'attack' the mass producers of drugs between Latin America on the one hand and Greenland on the other, that would just be considered the efficient use of funds to get a maximum result per dollar spent

but for the sake of clarity, of course racism should be condemned and prosecuted wherever it is found

It's true that particular man may indeed have been speeding, but before questioning anybody's bias, the most relevant question should be answered first. Why was that one minority speeder pulled over while all the other NON-minority speeders, most of which were driving more dangerously, some with cellphone or bottle of booze in hand, NOT pulled over? Singling out the one person who is different from a large group of other persons obvoiusly committing the exact same offense or worse, is beyond any shadow of doubt, proof of bias.

You really did explain the root of the problem quite well. Knowledge is key. Nowadays, people finally realize the world is not flat, so they are not going to fall off if they travel too far. People are also starting to realize that judging people on skin color is silly, since just because someone has a darker tone doesn't mean they were born stupid with criminal tendencies. Neuro diversity is now replacing racial diversity, which long ago replaced superstitions (belief system diversity) when it comes to uneducated people's misjudgement of other's motives and intelligence. One thing that hasn't ever changed is the ruling class's propensity to manipulate the system and target those differences to further their socioeconomic goals. It has little to do with kindness or hate based coping mechanisms or elephants, donkeys and unicorns or sunshine, lollipops and the vast rainbow array of colors, since it is always first and foremost about those in control at the top level wielding their wealth and power to make sure those born on the bottom level remain there with their ancestors.

Your last line about how the unjust practice of profiling to target the lower class should be "condemned and prosecuted wherever it is found" was so true but a little ironic, since today's prosecuters are the biggest part of the problem. Most cops start off with the best of intentions trying to do the right thing. They all know condemning innocent persons for BWNW or BWN is wrong. They also know when someone, who has a visible handicap like being born with a certain physical characteristic, is simply minding their own business just like anyone else, and not breaking any rules, there is no probable cause to assume that person did something totally unrelated to their looking different. Still it's like @sidd851 mentioned: [ When someone's targeted, rather than " Are they doing something wrong?", it becomes "Let's find out what they're doing wrong." ] When it is obvious they are not doing anything wrong and someone with clout choses to take offense at the mere existence of a minority citizen in their midst, the cops must still follow the orders of their superiors by putting them under false arrest, using some vague catch all statute for some non-crime like "disturbing the peace" or "disorderly conduct" which has nothing to do with the victim's behavior just their presence. Then prosecutors force these underpriviledged victims into plea bargains which effectively limits innocent citizens, who committed no offense, to accept a lesser punishment as the only method to avoid a worse punishment. Actual guilt or innocence NEVER factors into a case involving diverse people. At this point, it's all about convicting the easiest scapegoat. Having no access to resources to prove one's innocence is the main criteria for making someone a target.
 
In my experience, unless you are a homeless person, you shouldn't have any problems with cops. I got pulled over one time, I had an open beer in my lap and an unopened one in my passenger seat. They gave me a breathalyzer test and when they got the results they told me to go pour the beer out and go on my way. I faced no DUI Charge.
 
I was driving to work, slightly more anxious than usual for some reason, and my lips were dry. When I don't have chapstick, I tend to sorta lightly rub a finger across them. I don't know if it helps my lips or what, or if it's normal, but it keeps me from licking them, for the most part. And since I was nervous, I was rubbing very fast, basically combining my dry lips solution with stimming. Also, driving already makes me nervous, so I tend to be constantly scanning my surroundings like frightened prey.

And while doing all this, I drove past a cop who was parked and facing the opposite direction. Since I was scanning my surroundings, I saw him and I think made eye contact but looked away too quickly to be sure. But he zoomed into action and jolted into a big u-turn that landed him behind me. He followed me for several miles, about half the way to work then finally stopped. I always drive carefully, but I drove even more carefully then! Or maybe just with more tension.

So nothing really happened, sorry if anyone got scared at any point during that! It just made me wonder if anyone here has any experiences like this or actual encounters with cops for reasons that were likely or definitely due to something ASD-related.

I also have a mohawk and drive an old, rusty car that people have called "a mexican car." So maybe those were factors too. :eek:
Back to the original subject - Working night shift, on my nights off I often would go to Walmart sometime in middle of the night. Driving in a small town at 3 a.m. is a bit suspicious in itself. I was stopped, and I get really nervous around police officers and my nervousness (with my autism) made me appear even more suspicious and I was pulled over. My nervous speech didn't help and they had me get out and walk a straight line and all that. I don't drink and never have (other than high school lol). I do believe part of this encounter had a lot to do with my autism/nervousness.
 

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