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Cognitive biases - the fallacy of the "True Believer"

TBRS1

Transparent turnip
V.I.P Member
The fallacy of the "True Believer" is especially interesting because the person using it knows they are not being truthful, but considers the lie as a necessary part of telling the "truth."

It works like this:

The one practising this fallacy truly believes in the importance of their take on an issue, or issues.

However, rather than carefully selecting provable or objective facts, they have no problem making wildly outlandish claims - while knowing that they are wild and outlandish.

This person DOES NOT consider themselves to be a liar, comfabulator, or to be engaging in mad hyperbole, specifically because they are convinced that their "truth" is so important that telling falsehoods is justified - as if some "truths" can only be shown via false information.

I can't give any examples, though, because I have no idea if a person is a true believer, or a bald faced liar, or a complete idiot.

However, knowing that the fallacy of the true believer is a real thing is useful in understanding how some folk can be extremely sincere while also being liars.

Watch for it - see if you can spot it in the wild.
 
I know exactly what you are saying.

I myself, therefore said here in the past; Society has recognized me as Royal Gard but Allah has still to award me that Honor. We can see in the link (post) the truth. Until then, we are here. I'm here.

 
The fallacy of the "True Believer" is especially interesting because the person using it knows they are not being truthful, but considers the lie as a necessary part of telling the "truth."

It works like this:

The one practising this fallacy truly believes in the importance of their take on an issue, or issues.

However, rather than carefully selecting provable or objective facts, they have no problem making wildly outlandish claims - while knowing that they are wild and outlandish.

This person DOES NOT consider themselves to be a liar, comfabulator, or to be engaging in mad hyperbole, specifically because they are convinced that their "truth" is so important that telling falsehoods is justified - as if some "truths" can only be shown via false information.

I can't give any examples, though, because I have no idea if a person is a true believer, or a bald faced liar, or a complete idiot.

However, knowing that the fallacy of the true believer is a real thing is useful in understanding how some folk can be extremely sincere while also being liars.

Watch for it - see if you can spot it in the wild.
I see it daily on the news. George Orwell wrote a book on the idea as well.
 
When I was 16 or 17 a friend of mine introduced me to this song:


In the past few years, a devout person of faith attempted to convert me...during a personal crisis that made me, shall we say, less than patient with his persistence....he sent me so many unwanted, random missionary type messages and ignored my "thank you but not interested" replies...just getting more pushy....I did not have the mental badnwidth to deal with this, so;

After explaining to him that I was happy for him that he had found his faith and community of like-minded individuals who offered each other support and love, that I truly have no problems with his beliefs and am a "live and let live" person with most things...I also made it clear to him exactly
how I felt about religious doctrine and said a somewhat more harsh version of what I write below, after saying "tigger warning for extreme blasphemy - delete without reading further if you will be possibly personally offended because at this point you have forced upon me so many of your beliefs I will not be at all sorry for sharing mine:"

I said essentially "If a god does exist, and actually determines every single thing that happens in this world, it is my personal opinion that they are a sadistic, cruel and uncaring [mean person] who does not deserve anyone's worship"

For those here who do believe a loving diety (or many of them) exists, and find hope and meaning in their faith -- I respect that, I really do -- and am genuinely happy for you; Also, I don't know the limits of what I don't know so my opinion as stated above may be quite ignorant...but my respect and open-mindedness is there only as long as you show the same to me, and do not ever try to convert me.
 
Even the bible says believers are going to be accused of evil.
The fallacy of the true believer does not accuse believers of being evil.

It refers to one who knowingly lies.

I'm pretty sure the Bible warns against giving false testimony - lies.
 
Yes. It's about accepting Death. ... it is a scary thought, but we Believe in a hereafter, so Death is not the worst that God can give/afflict us.
 
This reminds me of what I consider to be the ultimate cognitive bias. Without a need to focus on any specific context except humanity itself, and our inherent propensity to be toxic to our own kind.

Humans who "marry" an ideal, who fail to recognize that most if not all ideals are human in origin and thus subject to the inherent imperfection of humanity. That virtually all human-based ideals must ultimately evolve and be altered with society, or be cast out altogether.

Otherwise that when ideals fail through time or the dynamics of circumstances, humanity fails with it. Those who choose to cling to an unconditional understanding and perception of "perfect beliefs" who are doomed to suffer for them, and make others around them suffer as well.

Ironic to consider that it was a French aristocrat who coined the term "ideology" as "a science of rational ideas" partly to disparage the will of the masses of France who longed for revolution. Worse still that he failed to have sufficient vision to imagine just how irrational and toxic religion and politics can be to humanity itself.
 
The fallacy of the "True Believer" is especially interesting because the person using it knows they are not being truthful, but considers the lie as a necessary part of telling the "truth."

Do you have a link for the definition you're using? Wikipedia has an interesting article, but it covers what seem (to me) to be two similar but distinct ideas.

Hoffer's book looks like it would be interesting and useful. Also highly relevant in these strange times.
The True Believer - Wikipedia
 
The fallacy of the "True Believer" is especially interesting because the person using it knows they are not being truthful, but considers the lie as a necessary part of telling the "truth."
How is this a fallacy?

Do you have a link for the definition you're using? Wikipedia has an interesting article, but it covers what seem (to me) to be two similar but distinct ideas.

Hoffer's book looks like it would be interesting and useful. Also highly relevant in these strange times.
The True Believer - Wikipedia
I agree a definition would be very helpful because I couldn't find anything either. Telling a lie to convince someone of something a person believes is true doesn't sound like a logical fallacy or a cognitive distortion. It just sounds like someone believes the end (convincing someone of something a person feels strongly about) justifies the means (telling a lie). That reminds me of propaganda used to promote an ideology (such as communism or socialism).
 
Do you have a link for the definition you're using? Wikipedia has an interesting article, but it covers what seem (to me) to be two similar but distinct ideas.

Hoffer's book looks like it would be interesting and useful. Also highly relevant in these strange times.
The True Believer - Wikipedia
Full disclosure - nope. I can't.

Here's why: I dealt professionally with this kind of stuff for many years. I no longer have any idea where I learned it.

So I followed the link you provided. Then figured "Well, I'll look up 'the fallacy of the true believer'" - which keeps taking me back to the "true believer" thing, OR a fallacy that I know as "The No True Scotsman Fallacy", an interesting but completely different thing.

I hope I could find my source in my e-books, but no. So now I have to go dig through my physical books, and hope that whichever was my source data survived the " I don't have space for this" cuts.

I will keep looking. The internet is not proving itself useful.

My best guess/recall is that it came from a very long (50-100 page) list & functional descriptions of logical fallacies I was using while teaching AP writing.

It seems like finding it should have been easy, but I confess I haven't been able to locate a physical copy. I'll keep looking.

I wonder if I have the wrong name (?). Mumble mumble dang nabit!
 
How is this a fallacy?


I agree a definition would be very helpful because I couldn't find anything either. Telling a lie to convince someone of something a person believes is true doesn't sound like a logical fallacy or a cognitive distortion. It just sounds like someone believes the end (convincing someone of something a person feels strongly about) justifies the means (telling a lie). That reminds me of propaganda used to promote an ideology (such as communism or socialism).
Yes - you are correct in that it is a type of propaganda, and it is ABSOLUTELY an applied form of "the end justifies the means." Maybe I'll just switch to calling it that.

I'm still looking for my source, but, in the mean time, check out this list of logical fallacies: Master List of Logical Fallacies

You will notice that many involve types of lies. What is important in understanding types of logical fallacies is that they catalogue general types of inherently false arguments allowing one to spot them when they are used.

Kind of like a guidebook for wandering the logical wilderness.
 
I will keep looking. The internet is not proving itself useful.

No need to look too hard. I was mostly looking for help to decide which of the two definitions in the Wikipedia article you meant, or maybe a third one.

There's definitely something of interest going on with people who lie about things like politics. Personally I believe it goes much further than simple dishonesty that, and I'm not sure it's a single thing.

IMO at a certain level of craziness (sadly widespread in the modern world) it doesn't matter if a liar is
A. Ideologically brainwashed, and when challenged, even a little, imagines scenarios that make their entrenched beliefs true
B. A prolific liar seeking to optimize personal gain in each and every interaction, acting as though the truth is what you can get people to believe
C. Copies the beliefs and words of their in-group (communal narcissism) without having any interest in objective truth

I could probably figure out more categories (there's at least one more in the Wikipedia article) but those are enough for now.

I think the existence of "communal narcissism is an important indicator of the underlying cause(s), because as a group-reinforcing behavior it makes sense as a survival trait.

It's also consistent with the odd outcome of cognitive dissonance, which often resolves the cause of the discomfort (typically an internal contradiction) by accepting the easy belief rather than accommodating the objective truth.

There's so much of that kind of material on YouTube that you could spend every waking moment watching people stating obvious lies or denying obvious facts based on their rigid and obviously false beliefs.
 
No need to look too hard. I was mostly looking for help to decide which of the two definitions in the Wikipedia article you meant, or maybe a third one.

There's definitely something of interest going on with people who lie about things like politics. Personally I believe it goes much further than simple dishonesty that, and I'm not sure it's a single thing.

IMO at a certain level of craziness (sadly widespread in the modern world) it doesn't matter if a liar is
A. Ideologically brainwashed, and when challenged, even a little, imagines scenarios that make their entrenched beliefs true
B. A prolific liar seeking to optimize personal gain in each and every interaction, acting as though the truth is what you can get people to believe
C. Copies the beliefs and words of their in-group (communal narcissism) without having any interest in objective truth

I could probably figure out more categories (there's at least one more in the Wikipedia article) but those are enough for now.

I think the existence of "communal narcissism is an important indicator of the underlying cause(s), because as a group-reinforcing behavior it makes sense as a survival trait.

It's also consistent with the odd outcome of cognitive dissonance, which often resolves the cause of the discomfort (typically an internal contradiction) by accepting the easy belief rather than accommodating the objective truth.

There's so much of that kind of material on YouTube that you could spend every waking moment watching people stating obvious lies or denying obvious facts based on their rigid and obviously false beliefs.
Yes - there are so many examples these days. It have always happened, but in the past people saw so much less.

When I was young, there were 4 stations on the TV running news programs twice a day. Newspapers came once a day. Anything more and a person would have to intentionally seek out books in libraries or bookstores. Most people didn't.

Now, you can't avoid it. You don't even have to read it because it's verbal and visual. New stuff is constantly available all day every day, and it is all in competition with everything else. It's so nuts.

I'm hoping that someday all that stuff will just turn into a background hum that most people will just ignore. That doesn't help with the current problem though.

While I'm waiting for that to happen, I'm brushing up on cognitive biases, logical fallacy, and assessing the truth value of information.
 
I'm still looking for my source, but, in the mean time, check out this list of logical fallacies: Master List of Logical Fallacies

You will notice that many involve types of lies. What is important in understanding types of logical fallacies is that they catalogue general types of inherently false arguments allowing one to spot them when they are used.

Kind of like a guidebook for wandering the logical wilderness.
...I'm brushing up on cognitive biases, logical fallacy, and assessing the truth value of information.
It might help to know that the Internet is filled with misinformation. I checked out the "Master List of Logical Fallacies" and it is filled with fake information. For example, "Actions have Consequences" is not a fallacy by any means. The author appears to have no idea what a logical fallacy is. There is also no such thing as "An Appeal to Heaven" fallacy, which appears to have been written by an atheist to attack people of faith since it can be applied to anyone who believes they are doing God's will.

A true logical fallacy is a clearly defined error in reasoning used to support or refute an argument. Anything that is a logical fallacy can be proven false using sound logic. If someone's argument/reasoning can't be proven false, it's not a logical fallacy.

A cognitive bias refers to people interpreting evidence based on their existing beliefs, which is something everyone does.

What you've described in your OP primarily has to do with ethics/morals.
 
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It might help to know that the Internet is filled with misinformation. I checked out the "Master List of Logical Fallacies" and it is filled with fake information. For example, "Actions have Consequences" is not a fallacy by any means. The author appears to have no idea what a logical fallacy is. There is also no such thing as "An Appeal to Heaven" fallacy, which appears to have been written by an atheist to attack people of faith since it can be applied to anyone who believes they are doing God's will.

A true logical fallacy is a clearly defined error in reasoning used to support or refute an argument. Anything that is a logical fallacy can be proven false using sound logic. If someone's argument/reasoning can't be proven false, it's not a logical fallacy.

A cognitive bias refers to people interpreting evidence based on their existing beliefs, which is something everyone does.

What you've described in your OP primarily has to do with ethics/morals.

I agree with most of this. But I have to point that out because this post is about the parts I don't agree with :)

There's a problem with formal logic IRL: it doesn't work well with human thought and human languages (both of which are limited, irregular random, and internally inconsistent.

That doesn't make formal logic useless of course, but applying it IRL is tricky, and misuse is rife.

For example "All <subset> are members of <superset>". People routinely misuse that (literally turn it into a lie) by manipulating the specification of the categories (often, but not always, via equivocation (which is an "informal fallacy"))
It's easy to unwrap, but I've rarely seen it done, despite it still being a "hot topic".
(Demonstrate the sets are not identical by reversing it, then ask "what's the difference"?
But IRL It's about as useful as the "how do you know your pet is ...?" question, which does something similar.
It shuts people up, but doesn't change their minds - which takes us back to the OP and why we're both posting in this thread :)

The point though is that those are high-visibility examples of the problems of using formal logic with other humans :) Our minds did not even evolve to be rational, let alone strictly logical.

Including "Actions have Consequences" in a list of fallacies just proves the writer is an airhead, because it's so obvious. It's adjacent though, in a way that probably highlights the writer's motivation: disbelief in "Cause and Effect" causes a lot of unnecessary problems.
But IMO it's actually just evidence that humans are not naturally rational: actions/consequences has to be taught to young children, and it's difficult, because they are (as they should be) extremely selfish, extremely poor planners, and poorly anchored in reality.
Which is fine in children, but if those and related skills (like emotional and behavioral regulation) aren't taught you get ... 2025, and the need for discussions like this one /lol.

IMO "Appeal to Heaven" is a reasonable case of "Appeal to Authority". It's certainly been common, and has a long history. Most religions have a version of "Deus Vult", and some quite bad things have been done (some right now) using it as a justification.
A bit like the subset/superset application of equivocation, it hides the irrational part, and if it's challenged with formal logic, you'll bump into powerful defenses ("dissent is betrayal; betrayal of our core principles is heresy").

But allowing for the apparent biases of the writer of that list of fallacies, it might still be useful. If you looks at the different common examples of irrational arguments, there are a huge number of them, and it's more efficient to learn them that to figure them out "on the fly" during a discussion. Though perhaps fewer these days, since the requirements for simulated rationality are falling as fast as the thresholds for offense.
In 2025, "weaponized politeness" is enough /lol.

What you've described in your OP primarily has to do with ethics/morals.
We could discuss this here if you like, because it's linked to topic.

But I'd like to start with definitions, because they may have been manipulated while I wasn't paying attention.

My TLDR take:

Morals are codified principles concerning "good" and "bad" motivations and behaviors in a social/cultural context.
Ethics are closer rules of behavior for use when errors are likely to have serious negative consequences, and the principles are not easily applied.

BTW I know a lot of definitions claim there's a large overlap between ethics and morals. And that a lot of people make no distinction. But an overlap doesn't make them identical, nor establish that one is a subset of the other.

And short definition of this kind work best if they're vague about the domain as whole ,and clear about differences/distinctions within the domain.
You don't have to agree with those definitions OFC, but I'm satisfied with them.

FWIW I'm interested because the concept of "Moral Inversion" has been turning up lately. it's not a new idea OFC, but IMO it would be very useful it if entered the mainstream vocabulary.

I've been using references to the Star Wars TV show "The Acolyte" (the Sith are the bad guys, and the Jedi the bad guys") due to lack of a well-known term for it, but it hasn't been working well. OTOH "Relative Morality" works, but it's bad sometimes (that's how the airheads making The Acolyte" reversed good & bad), and good sometimes (rigid principles and rules based on "absolute good and absolute evil" are wildly impractical).

There also a widely used clip from (I think) a Brit comedy show, where one guy asks his fellow villain "Are we the baddies)".
 
@Hypnalis I'm naturally good at logic so I assume it comes naturally to everyone. I blame poor logic (which I agree is very common) on bad teaching and people allowing their emotions to get in the way.

I just want to point out that there is a big difference between the Appeal to Authority Fallacy and Appeal to Heaven (which is not a fallacy).

Example of Appeal to Authority Fallacy:
"The scientific community says autism is a genetic condition. Therefore, it is genetic."
Why it's a fallacy: The opinion of an authority doesn't prove that something is true (authorities can and often have been wrong). The conclusion may be true, but the reasoning used to arrive at that conclusion is flawed.

Example of Appeal to Heaven:
"God ordered me to kill my children. Therefore, I didn't do anything wrong."
Not a fallacy: God (as the person making the statement understands the term) can't be wrong. Therefore, it's sound, logical reasoning.

The Appeal to Authority relies on flawed logical reasoning. The Appeal to Heaven (in the example used) relies on sound logic resulting in an inaccurate conclusion due to a flawed belief, not an error of logic.
 

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