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Can anti-social personality disorder be comorbid with autism?

Discussion in 'Autism Science Discussions' started by BrokenBoy, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. BrokenBoy

    BrokenBoy 戯言使い(Nonsense User)

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    I often hear misconceptions and stereotypes about the autistic spectrum. One popular misconception is that we are cold, calculating androids who don't feel anything and are basically sociopaths.

    Sociopathy isn't even a diagnosis anymore (The correct term is Anti-social Personality Disorder)and on top of that, people on the spectrum have difficulties expressing their feelings outwardly to others.

    But I'm wondering if it's possible for an autistic person to actually have ASPD. Is it possible or are the two inherently different to the point they can't be comorbid?

    Does anyone here know the answer to this question?
     
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  2. Fino

    Fino Alex V.I.P Member

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    Based on everything I've read, I'd say it's possible but in the vague way that most things are possible. I don't think there's anything that necessarily disqualifies it as impossible, but the possibility of it occurring, let alone being diagnosed, seems to be very low. Here's a bit on the subject so it's not just my baseless opinion:

    "Both individuals with AS/HFA and those with antisocial conduct disorder can have deficit in empathy towards others, which may contribute to antisocial behavior [6,53]. In fact, people presenting antisocial behaviors show reduced impulse control, deficit of emotional empathy and little, and few signs of guilt or remorse [41]. However, antisocial, non-ASD individuals retain the capacity of understanding the minds of others, and can use this knowledge for manipulation and control. By contrast, a key feature of ASD is the impairment in developing an age appropriate “theory of the mind”. For these reasons, the mechanisms underlying antisocial acts are quite different in AS compared to antisocial individuals [53]. Indeed, their deficit in having a "theory of mind" impairs their social judgment and increases the risk of violating norms and laws. On the other hand, individuals with AS often show a strong sense of right and wrong, and once they have understood the rules they are likely to stick to them more rigidly than most people [54]"
     
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  3. Nauti

    Nauti Active Member

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    From experience, plus reading Tony Attwood's Complete guide to Asperger's, I would say YES. Having ASD genetics plus a cluster B type attitude and behaviour is possible and I know the type only too well.

    I prefer to refer to such individuals as "Cluster B" now, as a lot of the symptoms overlap, in my experience and it's difficult to diagnose such pathologically dishonest, grandiose and narcassistic individuals as they are VERY good at lying. They, typically, would NEVER allow themselves to be diagosed, yet their victims will flock, in droves, to psychiatrists and psychologists.

    My ex, I believe, is one such individual, and very likely, my mother's mother.

    It is more likely in Autistic people who do not develop any kind of healthy sense of self, to the point where they wouldn't acknowledge their autism because they would feel "diminished" and they are intelligent enough to mask and not just as, typically, HFA females do, but with elaborate dishonesty and often criminal or manipulative "entitled" behaviour. Severe neglect and trauma in childhood often accompany this comorbid personality disordered pathology.

    The key distinctions for "Cluster B" personality disordered people are a sense of entitlement and a proclivity to exploit others, often accompanied by drug or alcohol or food addictions, other's may have sex or money addictions.

    They actually despise themselves (IMO) but due to their refusal to develop self awareness or accountability, they project their hatred and sense of inferiority onto other's.

    My ex is obsessed with weed, like TOTALLY obsessed. He is utterly irresponsible and lies continually. He has boasted about how he has destroyed people's lives. He has no ability to emotionally support others or act with any empathy. He is VERY inflexible. He manipulates in typical ways - playing the victim when he has actually been the abuser, strawman arguments, stick and carrot ploys, emotional bullying, defaming others and exaggerating his own achievements, claiming credit for other's acheivements, and it really appears that he believes his own lies, he is so good at lying. Tony Attwood talks about dishonest Aspies, in the book and his description fits my ex

    I told my children I believe he has ASD because it's a kinder assessment than the other and it does fit, but he seems to think he is a better person then everyone else so there is NO WAY he will reduce himself by getting diagnosed. He has been in jail and still practises a criminal life, so, contrary to common thought, psychopathic types can be scared of something, they do not want to get caught and made to stop their illegal activities, and they don't want to lose credibility, because it's harder to predate on others when "the gig is up" and people know what sort of people they are, THEY don't even want to know how ill they are, they want to keep feeling entitled, superior and getting away with their crimes and exploitations. So, commonly, the last thing these types of people will do, is get diagnosed.

    I spent 20 years with my ex, from the age of 16 (he was twice my age) to 37, so, I figure, with my IQ (145) my special interest in clinical acience, autism and deviant personality disorders, I'm pretty entitled to speculate on my ex's particular pathology.


    My youngest son, believes he, himself, has a "psychopath's brain" but, due to my honesty-insisting, attentive, boundaried, and kind parenting (plus lots of help from my boyfriend) he has chosen to curb those impulses to hurt and manipulate others, he also has autistic and "gifted" traits. He literally has said, many, many times "I would be a psychopath, if it wasn't for you, mum".

    Like his father, he has a propensity to be
    manipulative and enjoy other's pain and sense of control over other's, but, unlike his father, he is honest, self aware and knows right from wrong, so he is constantly pulling himself up from treating other's badly.

    I, however, am way too guileless, honest and autistic to be manipulative, and I'm extremely empathetic and morally drlven. My kid trust's me and admires me, so I think he will turn out ok.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  4. Fino

    Fino Alex V.I.P Member

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    While I understand that your conclusions are primarily based on pain caused by individuals in your life, your demonizing of all those with personality disorders is inaccurate and reminiscent of the generalizations and characterizations, in reference to Autism, that are often made by NTs and complained about here.
     
  5. Nauti

    Nauti Active Member

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    I'm not demonizing all those with personality disorders. I think it's you who are taking things personally.
    It only fits who it fits and I'm not making this up, this is grounded in empirical research.
    Autistic people can be VERY vulnerable to being exploited and manipulated and what types of people do that?

    I know LOVELY people who have been diagnosed with borderline personality disorders, but typically, those peope are in treatment. We are talking untreated people here.

    Just because this information makes you feel uncomfortable, it doesn't make it untrue.

    Why are you attacking a victim here?

    Are you saying that there are no predatory people? Or that they couldn't possibly be on the spectrum? Or that they wouldn't be diagnosed with cluster B personality disorders?-What is the point of psychiatrists and psychologists even describing and categorizing personality disorders if one can't speak about them in a real way?

    Does what I'm saying mean ALL people diagnosed with personality disorders are awful people? NO, IT DOESN'T. people in.treatment, will typically get better. People not in treatment and who are accurately diagnosed, will, typically, cause a lot of pain and distress towards other's that are close, THATS WHY IT'S A PERSONALITY DISORDER.

    Maybe you don't even have BPD ? Maybe you were misdiagnosed and you actually are suffering from complex trauma? I know that, in my case, that is true, as I was misdiagnosed with BPD.

    Please don't try to shame me or shut down the conversation because of your feelings. People have a right to get their head around those in society who are exploitative and dishonest and these personality disorders are what clinicians agree, describe the behaviour patterns of such individuals. The question was asked and I simply answered, with my opinion, truthfully, and that isn't a sin, even though it may offend some people.

    People keep poo pooing things that I believe in, on this site, as if my beliefs are ok to rubbish, well, I have just as much right to my opinions as everybody else, and they aren't even uninformed opinions, so I will keep expressing them.

    I'm nearly 50, I'm a mother of many, many grown up children and a survivor of much abuse and I won't be shut down anymore. I've earnt the right to have a voice and it doesn't matter to me whether you like what I say, or not. I know my intentions are only honesty, truth, and compassion, empowerment and love for humanity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  6. Fino

    Fino Alex V.I.P Member

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    I believe you have gotten far more from my single sentence than is actually said, and judging by your last two paragraphs this seems to be a collection of pent-up feelings from multiple interactions of which I have no knowledge, rather than a reaction to only my statement. I'm unable to see where in my response lies emotion, shaming, or attacking. I only said you were inaccurate.

    I also don't see where in your first post you specify those untreated and where you clarify that you are not referring to all those diagnosed. Perhaps that was your intention that I now understand, but that intention is not shown in your first post.

    I'm sorry I've caused whatever it is I've caused that you're experiencing. I suppose my intention also didn't come across correctly. I didn't and don't experience any negative feelings toward you and still have nothing but affection for you.

    And, I find your first post inaccurate.
     
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  7. Nauti

    Nauti Active Member

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    Well, you are arguing and invalidating clinical research and long term experience and years and years of research. You are entitled to your opinion, of course and we can just agree to disagree.
    I could post plenty of clinical backup info, if you would like, but I get the impression that you wouldn't like that. So let's just leave it as you don't believe me and you take offence at me saying what I said. Personally, I'd feel more satisfied with a more rigorous argument than simply "I don't agree." " I find you inaccurate" and "You are perpetuating irroneous and harmful sterotypes and hate speech against people with personality disorders" type of argument. What particularly is it that you find wrong? And why?-And what evidence do you have to back up your argument? Answering those questions and actually having a conversation would leave me feeling like I have learnt something from this exchange, and much happier, as a result.

    As it is, I just feel like "Feelings Trump Facts" wins again and it is extremely unsatisfying and further ailienation for someone who has done the amount of empirical data collection, and long term experience enduring that I have had to do, just to get my head around what I am up against.

    Invalidating is part of the type of abuse I have suffered, long term and yes, you invalidated me, without providing any reasons or evidence for why I am wrong, at all.

    But hey, at least you still have the freedom of speech to express your opinion and I'm happy about that. I would take that over shutting you down because you offended me, any day.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  8. Fino

    Fino Alex V.I.P Member

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    I wouldn't characterize myself as offended or necessarily not liking anything, and I don't believe I would be bothered if you were to post whatever you'd like to post. My only concern in that case and now would be that any debate or disagreement on my part will cause you some negative emotional reaction, but I will assure you again that feelings, as far as I know, are not a factor in any of my posts thus far.

    And, with the understanding that you were initially referring to a particular segment of those untreated, it's not exactly inaccurate and further evidence would be unnecessary. I'm sure you can see that with your repeated use of "they," "these types of people," and "cluster B people," one may possibly read this as more general than you intended.
     
  9. Nauti

    Nauti Active Member

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    Well, at this stage I feel it important to cite one of my sources for that claim.
    And when I said "these people" I was specifically referring to the kinds of people that exhibit "anti social behaviour" as specified by the OP.
    I KNOW that "psychopathic"- type people suffer from grandiosity and that they are exploitative by definition. THAT is the kind of people I was referring to. The OP asked SPECIFICALLY about those that would be diagnosable with what is now known as anti social personality disorder, which was once known as "sociopathy" or "psychopathy".

    FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE, which you can and did write off as invalid and erroneous, it's not as cut and dried as the diagnostic manual categories describe, symptoms overlap, and are seen across the "cluster B" personality disorder spectrum.

    I will post a youtube video from a clinical professional that works and studies that particular social phemonona, below. Because I'm not making this stuff up.

    I can also quote the material from Tony Attwood who describes the "Aspie in denial" the types that try to cover up and elaborately mask their ASD social and emotional deficits with dishonesty and narcissistic type insensitivities toward others. But I would rather encourage people to read the book. It's called THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO ASPERGERS SYNDROME and I'll even give you the page number. It's on page 26 and the subtitle is DENIAL AND ARROGANCE. It's what led me to consider that Autism is a part of my ex's pathology, as it very much fits how he behaves.
    Now I'm NOT SAYING that this is common or anything other than EXTREMELY RARE. But it's something that I HAVE EXPERIENCED AND RESEARCHED THOUGHLY.
    I don't understand how you can "disagree" with my experience and good luck disagreeing with the clinical experts data.


    Now this psychologist is talking about females but I KNOW it's not exclusive to women, as my ex exhibits very typically (toxic) female traits in terms of manipulative, power oriented double-speak types of behaviour.

    People are SO SEXIST these days, usually towards men, particularly Caucasian men, and loud feminists try to claim rhat women are some kind of virtuous angels who never act abusively, but that just isn't the case and some men act very femininely and even in a toxically (typically and characteristically) feminine manner. Gender doesn't necessarily dictate any kind of behaviour.

    This is the evidence and back up for the "cluster B" claims that I made. As well, of course, for my 37 years subject to narcissistic abuse,first by a woman and then by a man. And good luck trying to isolate narcissistic abuse out of "sociopathic" , "psychopathic" and anti social personality or even "cluster B" personality disordered people's behaviour, as described in the video, in general. Of course NOT every person
    diagnosed with something like BPD behave narcissistically, and I suspect that those who don't, may suffer from Complex PTSD and things like ASD rather than BPD, but I don't know enough to have too much certainty, yet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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