Autism and Migration

[Tigris]

Do you think this survey and research was done with biasness without researching the core issues?

The study looked at children whose mother had moved to the UK from outside Europe.
It showed an increased risk of autism in children whose parents had migrated from Africa, the Caribbean and Asia, the UK researchers said.
The greatest risk was for the Caribbean group, the BBC World Service reported.
Speaking on Health Check, Dr Daphne Keen, from St. George's Hospital London, said while the findings show a clear link between immigration and autism - they could not determine exactly why this was the case.

BBC News - Autism link with migrant parents, study finds

 

[Geordie]

Put it logically. It is saying that Americans who move from California to New Jersey has an increased risk of autism, because of environmental stress. Any sense to things?

What you meant must be, autism is some beurobiological condition resulting from increasing awareness, intervention options and expansion of criteria on DSM-IV and V, not immigration, genetics or other hoodwink.

 

[King_Oni]

I'm going on a limb here, but could it be that, "out of of Europe" there's less support for people on the spectrum, and as such they'll end up getting the diagnosis they need in the UK. I mean, reading from Geordies posts Singapore for example isn't really too big on having people on the spectrum, so that would only make sense to me that people are less likely to get diagnosed and get help for their problems there, but will in the UK, where everyone is covered for healthcare and services are set up for those who need it.

I think that this assumption of people migrating from different countries... some which might be 2nd or 3rd world countries even, is silly research by itself, just because facilities and services, just as well as cultural aspects aren't equal everywhere.

To me that, would be the same as stating "a lot of chinese immigrants have only 1 child"... and totally neglecting the fact that this is because of their 1 child policy.

 

[Soup]

Hi Tigris! Nice seeing you around here again.

I saw a documentary about this subject & the belief is so pervasive that many Somalians refer to Autism as the Western disease. IF & only if the more severe form of Autism referred to in such studies is exacerbated by environmental factors not properly understood scientifically yet, it may be a possibility. There are so many plastics, chemicals, toxins, food preservatives & other agents prevalent in modern western cities to which a person from a rural village in Somalia might have never been exposed: who knows how this may affect very vulnerable people.

A similar affect was observed when the 1st Europeans arrived in North America & provided alcoholic beverages to the Aboriginal people. Whites had been drinking this stuff on a regular basis from the dawn of their history & had built up some tolerance for it. The natives, who had never been exposed to these drinks became severely intoxicated with very little exposure & many were almost instantly addicted.

...On the other hand, I wonder if there may be an underlying hidden agenda in this research. At a time when many Westerners are feeling like they're being overrun by 'foreigners' (non-whites), disseminating a false scare tactic like the threat of people's children suddenly developing a 'crippling defect' does reek of an attempt to dissuade non-whites from emigrating to the west. Also, it seems to be somehow blaming immigrant parents for their Autie children's state: had they simply chosen to remain in their own countries, their children would've been fine.

 

[Nyades]

It seems like faulty logic to me. I'd suppose that from a simple perspective, looking for a common denominator (even though the topic is yet solidly defined) could lead to stumbling over new revelations. But it would make more sense to first consider what is known, such as the apparent spectrum nature of the issue, the misunderstood complexities of the human brain, etc. then branch out from there.

I know I confuse people when I try to talk but I'll still try to explain. Given the understanding that there exists a spectrum of results presumed to be related, wouldn't it logically follow that there would most likely be a spectrum of causes (or means) as well?
This seems especially obvious since the host of brain imaging research data to date remains inconclusive.

It seems that researchers function primarily by applying "square peg, square hole" base logic. I am baffled at how they manage to consider and map the active brain portions, ponder the firing nature of neurons and even evaluate the unique physical structures of such, but they've yet to consider the whole thing as the bioelectrical system it actually is. The nature of such a system includes not only conductors (the obvious) but also inhibitors (more obscure) and the fact that electrical current will travel the path of least resistance (and will travel until absolutely hindered) could provide far more insight than a socioeconomic evaluation that can be easily misinterpreted. But then again, I don't understand most people or their reasoning.

 

[Tigris]

I'm going on a limb here, but could it be that, "out of of Europe" there's less support for people on the spectrum, and as such they'll end up getting the diagnosis they need in the UK. I mean, reading from Geordies posts Singapore for example isn't really too big on having people on the spectrum, so that would only make sense to me that people are less likely to get diagnosed and get help for their problems there, but will in the UK, where everyone is covered for healthcare and services are set up for those who need it.

I think that this assumption of people migrating from different countries... some which might be 2nd or 3rd world countries even, is silly research by itself, just because facilities and services, just as well as cultural aspects aren't equal everywhere.

To me that, would be the same as stating "a lot of chinese immigrants have only 1 child"... and totally neglecting the fact that this is because of their 1 child policy.

Great minds think alike! I believe the researcher or team who did this survey is technically unaware of the forces behind these migrations. As my friend, Geordie, whom spoke a lot about Singapore here, we here from Asia have seen a lot of a autistics and learning disabled people emigrated from Asia. It's like a Diaspora or something.

 

[Geordie]

It seems like faulty logic to me.

Given the understanding that there exists a spectrum of results presumed to be related, wouldn't it logically follow that there would most likely be a spectrum of causes (or means) as well? This seems especially obvious since the host of brain imaging research data to date remains inconclusive.

It seems that researchers function primarily by applying "square peg, square hole" base logic. I am baffled at how they manage to consider and map the active brain portions, ponder the firing nature of neurons and even evaluate the unique physical structures of such, but they've yet to consider the whole thing as the bioelectrical system it actually is. The nature of such a system includes not only conductors (the obvious) but also inhibitors (more obscure) and the fact that electrical current will travel the path of least resistance (and will travel until absolutely hindered) could provide far more insight than a socioeconomic evaluation that can be easily misinterpreted reasoning.

I tend to agree with this reasoning. This causes autism, not external environmental factors such as migration.

However, I think Tiger wants to advocate his views that Singaporeans and other Asians, Africans etc, want to get better services and support for autism. I do not dispute this claim, however, this has to be done when the economy is ready to provide the level of resources for such services. However, some richer Asian countries are just not supportive, due to their social norms. In both South Korea and Singapore from what I heard, such support is lacking, and discrimination against Auties and Aspies don't help things.

In comparison, though, Taiwan and Japan seem more supportive of Aspies.

 

[Margaretha]

Don't forget that people who migrate to other countries are generally not people who are socially well adapted to their native countries. They tend to be the outsiders and the poor who are looking for a better life. My guess is that people on the spectrum who are not doing well economically or socially (just about all of them) will be the first to immigrate when they get the opportunity. They are not necessarily looking for services, just a better life. This happened in America in the 18th an 19th century when huge waves of Italian, Irish, and German immigrants came here.

 

[Margaretha]

So really, researchers are wasting their time trying to understand this. It is really just an obvious and natural fact of immigration.

 

[Soup]

It makes perfect sense for families with already Autistic children to seek out places that would be more open & receptive to their children where the children would have easier access to even better quality services & Autism related resources as well as better career opportunities in the future. I think that we only benefit as a nation when such hard-working dedicated & concerned parents choose Canada. We gain ethically sound adults of high integrity who want to work hard & contribute to society. They're not looking to dump their Autie children onto us to burden us: by sharing our resources, we gain a valuable future employee for someone someday & 2 great adults in the interim. Win-win!

 

[Margaretha]

Plus... autistics are often the innovators in any society.

 

[smith2267]

Too many confounding variables to draw any conclusions. Does having autistic children make on more likely to immigrate to Europe? Maybe there are better doctors in Europe.
Or maybe there is discrimination in the countries they are emigrating from, and they are fleeing it.
Or maybe it is the stress of leaving your homeland. Or...
As you can see, too many possible explanations. Stupid study.
too many uncontrolled vARIABLES.

 

[imagesbyholly]

I heartily agree with Nyades' comment about there being, "a spectrum of causes." I can't shake the feeling that there is a relationship between adrenal fatige and autism- like a vicious cycle type of thing. Not saying it is the cause, just seems related. Adrenal exhaustion can be caused by too much stress/anxiety, illness, physical exertion, malnutrition, etc.

 

[total-recoil]

I'm going on a limb here, but could it be that, "out of of Europe" there's less support for people on the spectrum, and as such they'll end up getting the diagnosis they need in the UK. I mean, reading from Geordies posts Singapore for example isn't really too big on having people on the spectrum, so that would only make sense to me that people are less likely to get diagnosed and get help for their problems there, but will in the UK, where everyone is covered for healthcare and services are set up for those who need it.

I think that this assumption of people migrating from different countries... some which might be 2nd or 3rd world countries even, is silly research by itself, just because facilities and services, just as well as cultural aspects aren't equal everywhere.

To me that, would be the same as stating "a lot of chinese immigrants have only 1 child"... and totally neglecting the fact that this is because of their 1 child policy.

Actually, as far as I'm aware, support for people with aspergers in the U.K. has deteriorated because the current Government is mainly interested in reducing unemployment statistics. Thus, people even with more serious disadvantages to aspergers are coming under ever increasing pressure to be signed off any invalidity. This is why I've not yet bothered with formal diagnosis as I don't believe there would be any difference in assistance. Some people might believe I've not correctly grasped the current situation but, from what I've read so far, it doesn't look too good.
Not that I disagree with the notion of aspies working but think, in some cases, there needs to be an awareness of the condition. I don't know how it stands in Europe but over here it seems as if there is a huge change in attitude towards disability.

 

[King_Oni]

Actually, as far as I'm aware, support for people with aspergers in the U.K. has deteriorated because the current Government is mainly interested in reducing unemployment statistics. Thus, people even with more serious disadvantages to aspergers are coming under ever increasing pressure to be signed off any invalidity. This is why I've not yet bothered with formal diagnosis as I don't believe there would be any difference in assistance. Some people might believe I've not correctly grasped the current situation but, from what I've read so far, it doesn't look too good.
Not that I disagree with the notion of aspies working but think, in some cases, there needs to be an awareness of the condition. I don't know how it stands in Europe but over here it seems as if there is a huge change in attitude towards disability.

The attitude towards disability hasn't neccesarily changed here, but the ways to land income for disability have become increasingly hard. New laws exclude a lot of people from it.

I'm not receiving a lot of assistance myself; just a temporary "ban" that I have to look for jobs, until I have clearly mapped what my problems are and the jobcoach can look into that with me. It would be non-sensical if I have to look for a job, land a job and end up at a therapist (or worse) after a week, and that's pretty much what my therapist, as well as the people who assessed me for disability said. Though I should add, there's more going on with me than "just" asperger's. Yet, because of those new laws to assess disability as such, I do not get that income and have to file for social security.

Just like even "healthy" people can't deal with every job because of limited capabilities, aspies are just like those... it just happens that a lot of "normal" things don't work for us. 9 out of 10 people would be fine to put at a callcenter for example; I'm quite sure that a fair share of aspies wouldn't qualify for that. And let's not forget that there's also sensory issues, meltdowns and what have you, which might impose a problem on the workfloor. I don't want to end up as a "victim" because people push me places I know I shouldn't end up.. and I know this upfront and have documentation of it. If that's the case, I'm willing to state that I should not be held responsible for whatever happens. Yes, I'm a responsible person, but as such I feel that there's more to it than putting blame at someone and that's it.

What I'd like to see for aspies is a more serious dialogue with jobcoaches to see what kind of job they might do, and what's possible, that's already failing. No wonder people rather have disability income or something like that. Reducing unemployment is more than just sticking people somewhere. They're focussed on (at least here) employing people short term not long term... and long term in fact should be the goal. You don't want people coming in and out of the revolving door for benefits because they can't function the way they're supposed to according to some silly notion.

The reason I got my diagnosis was in fact because my therapist told me it might open doors for me. Little did he know about laws changing just before I got my official diagnosis. Under old law I would be on disability benefits. And actually, because I have my diagnosis, I can map out my issues and at least it's worth something. I somewhat did it to cover for myself... and if it would be possible to "reap some rewards" but that wasn't top priority for me personally.

 

[Geordie]

As I always told Tigris, and what does Tigris did say to me repeatedly,

Singaporeans move to other countries to seek better opportunities that Singapore doesn't offer. America offers American football, baseball and great Aspie talents. Australia offers rugby, cricket and great friends. Britain offers great museums, smart people and the most advanced social system in the Anglosphere, bar none (and its 4 national sports teams are almost on par with Australia, though the green and gold still trumps all others).

We can't help with the best and brightest of Singaporean Aspie talents moving to other countries, because it is simply more highly probable for Singaporeans with Asperger's to succeed in America, Britain etc. than in his own country, due to the lack of acceptance of Singaporean Aspies across all NT social levels, and discord between different Aspies. We can't help it that the best of Aspie talents still fall short of what Singapore wants (not needs, the government needs us) from our behaviour.