Autism and discipline

[Nervous Rex]

With all due respect, I must disagree. It depends on the level of disconnectedness. Some autistics are as disconnected as someone with schizophrenia. (This is why in the past, many with austism where labeled as schizophrenic).

You cannot beat or cajole or teach or manipulate or use any amount of behaviour modification on someone who is severely disconnected.

I see your point. I was speaking only in generalities. The more we understand an individual, the more we can tailor our responses and expectations to that individual, and even take their current emotions into account.

Also, feedback, rewards, and punishment doesn't necessarily mean beating and manipulating. A smile, a cheerful reply, or even a light touch are rewards that go a long way. Just looking up from my phone when my children talk to me elicits a great response from them. Every interaction can teach. I guess I'm generalizing again, but I generally tend to do that.

 

[MikeMarkCA]

@MikeMarkCA, on this forum we have a large variety of people with a lot of different experiences. Some mask their autistic tendencies and appear to fit in. Some have been misunderstood their entire lives. Some fit both descriptions.

So, please be understanding if some of them to disagree with you, or if your questions trigger some bad memories and bad reactions. Consider it an exercise in learning to understand others, and hopefully it will help you better understand your grandson.

Thank you for that, I guess the difficult part for me will be the interpretation and not knowing who here is indeed autistic, and those who are here as NTs searching for a better understanding.

 

[MikeMarkCA]

On second thought, I won't block you. This may be a good way to begin a dialogue.

Aside from emtionalism, my fear of you makes you think I am "snotty," why?

You and people like you DO scare me. DO I not have a right to feel that or to express that?

I do not need to see your interaction with your grandson because your words related what you felt. If you feel words are NOT a good barometer for my judgements, then by your own rules, you have no right to judge me for my words alone.

So let's start over.

You scare me because your written judgements seem to indicate many similarities that other NTs have toward many of us. You seem to have indicated that you are the only one with insights that even his own mother does not have.

Yes, to me you sound arrogant and emotional and lacking in understanding.

However, if logically you can explain to me how this is not true and how your words are actually not correct, I am open to your educating me, provided it is in a respectful and non-emotional manner.

Yes perhaps putting me on ignore is best, if I am scaring you at this point, I’m sure there will be more for you to interpret in a negative light in the future.
I scare you, I’m arrogant, I judge.
With all due respect, I have judged nobody, I have simply asked questions, the rest you have done on your own.
It is your choice whether or not you choose to put me on ignore, but if you have found so much negativity in my questions thus far, I suspect not much relief for you in the future, so perhaps putting me on ignore is best.
Merry Christmas.

 

[sidd851]

Yes perhaps putting me on ignore is best, if I am scaring you at this point, I’m sure there will be more for you to interpret in a negative light in the future.
I scare you, I’m arrogant, I judge.
With all due respect, I have judged nobody, I have simply asked questions, the rest you have done on your own.
It is your choice whether or not you choose to put me on ignore, but if you have found so much negativity in my questions thus far, I suspect not much relief for you in the future, so perhaps putting me on ignore is best.
Merry Christmas.

What @TheFreeCat is trying to get across, I think, is that while discipline can change behavior(s), the same discipline can be perceived entirely differently depending upon who is receiving it.
It may not be received as a simple cause and effect by those on the spectrum.
It may be viewed by those receiving it rightly as terrorism.
As I had an authoritarian father, who often didn't explain anything(which I badly needed), I had a very confusing childhood filled with rebukes and punishments.
I most definitely learned from them, but not in a way that allowed me to make future judgements based on them.
Instead, I learned this intolerably long list of things unrelated to one another--- a list that I could only attempt to memorize--- never an underlying principal that I was taught or could extrapolate to provide future reference.
As a result, my childhood was a random mixed bag of confusing treatments that never had rhyme nor reason.
What I experienced was most definitely abuse--- horrid psychological abuse--- though that was not what was given.

I believe that it is being suggested that you tread softly, where you do not (yet) have (sufficient) understanding.
I.E.--- the end does not necessarily justify the means.

There are plenty here, both on, and off the spectrum, who will gladly help you to understand the myriad ways that you can compassionately teach--- and what the limits of that instruction might effectively be.

May you be well.

sidd

 

[MikeMarkCA]

Well though NT, I too had physical abuse, and my share of terror, and vowed never to be as my father was, but I think some are reading into me that which they don’t know about me, at the mere mention of discipline?
If a child ourltright ignores an adult, well, there will be limitations for sure, but it cannot be left to stand, can it?

 

[sidd851]

Well though NT, I too had physical abuse, and my share of terror, and vowed never to be as my father was, but I think some are reading into me that which they don’t know about me, at the mere mention of discipline?
If a child ourltright ignores an adult, well, there will be limitations for sure, but it cannot be left to stand, can it?

I would suggest, in answer, that you study, study, study, if you are to not repeat anything like the abuse that you received.
And, explain, explain, explain.

It may also be helpful to look for videos that illustrate the difficulties faced by Lower-Functioning Autistic children--- and their parents. This may give you much needed insight, regardless where your grandson may be on the spectrum.

I cannot stress enough that ASD, and the ways that it affects, is wide, wide ranging.

Carefully, skillfully, compassionately, and knowledgeably is the way forward.

 

[Crossbreed]

If a child ourltright ignores an adult, well, there will be limitations for sure, but it cannot be left to stand, can it?

That is where the "Theory of Mind" part comes into play. An autistic of normal, even gifted, intelligence deceptively seems like they should get the basics easily enough, but they don't. (It is the same stereotype as the absent-minded professor.)

Looking back, I believe that my own dad was 2E (Aspergers + gifted) like me. Since he didn't [couldn't] have such a diagnosis to consider, he approached child-rearing from an NT perspective, as well.

Even though I am 2E, I am well-versed in NT parenting tactics. They are easier than custom parenting tactics and are my first approach, as stated previously. (I have NT, ASD & mentally ill children.) NT tactics fail on the latter two types.

 

[Crossbreed]

I would suggest, in answer, that you study, study, study, if you are to not repeat anything like the abuse that you received.

Both of these organizations have info pages and free public meetings,

• The Autism Society of America (local affiliates)
• US Autism & Asperger Association

 

[Autistamatic]

My own take on it is that the traditional rules of disciplining kids to prepare them for adulthood don't always work with high functioning autistic kids, and the greater their intelligence, the less effective those methods are.

Modern society does not encourage critical thinking. It encourages herd mentality - going along with the crowd, getting emotionally swept away on the tide whilst maintaining the illusion of choice.

Critical thinking is alien to such a huge proportion of the world that those of us to whom it comes naturally are shunned as trouble makers for not following meekly.
I was capable of making critical, reasoned decisions before I started primary school, because I was then, as now, incapable of being caught up in the emotional tide. I know that this is very true of many of us and is linked to our different approaches to ToM. I was described as "wiser than my years" when I was still in short trousers. It's cute when a 7 year old holds an intelligent conversation at an adult level, but it's threatening when they question your irrational behaviour or demands. The precocious little genius is suddenly an impudent brat.

Traditional ideas of reward and punishment don't work on such kids if you don't help them understand the reasons. If you give them a reason that makes no sense they will challenge you to do better. If you cannot explain to them why you do it, or worse, expect them to do it whilst you don't, how can you expect anyone to cooperate?

If you keep punishing and rewarding them without explanation they are no more likely to work it out for themselves than they can pick up any other kind of hint. Once they understand the why and the how they may need no further instruction. If you take the time to offer that explanation in the first instance you will save both sides a heap of aggravation. If you cannot explain it to them then you have to ask yourself why you do it?

This is only one perspective though. Autistic kids are often more intellectually mature than their peers, but less emotionally aware so trying to teach them values and behaviour by childish means may backfire. How that manifests from child to child will vary. Some may be prone to insular meltdowns, others to loud outbursts, even violence, but it can be managed better the more you get to know the child.

Mike, I know you feel like a fish out of water here, but don't mistake anyone's responses as threatening or dismissive. We get the odd malcontent here, but the majority are intelligent and helpful people. We feel equally as out of place in everyday life, so we know you might find it strange dealing with so many strong personalities that may have emotional baggage to contend with.

I for one am pleased you are seeking understanding and hope we can help you make your grandson's life a happy one. I have known I was autistic since my teens and am now in my late 40s - I've grown up with it. You may not always like the way I say things nor I you, but I know that's because we come from different directions. Aspies find NTs as confusing as they find us. All many of us want to is to meet in the middle and that's where society is currently failing. We're busting a gut to fit in, but very few NT people are reciprocating so it's no wonder some are sensitive to certain triggers. The fact that you have reached out means a lot to some of us.

 

[Pats]

Hi again @MikeMarkCA You've gotten quite a variety of different opinions and thoughts here - I guess, the same if you asked any group - everyone has their own ideas about parenting. My youngest daughter's best friend was an only child - big difference in parenting experience. She attempted to scold me over my parenting decisions and I told her that I knew she didn't agree with my parenting, just as I don't agree with hers, but the difference was that I kept my feelings about hers to myself and I expected the same from her.
The thing is, you are unique, your wife is unique, your grandchild is unique and what works with someone else may or may not work for you. I was also raised in an abusive home and confused over rules - my autism made me more complacent and compliant out of fear. The confusion over the rules was because what I thought was wrong (like stealing something) we were never punished, but were severely punished if we asked if our cousin could come home with us in front of everyone. Even as a teen, I was caught skipping school, sneaking off to an out of town concert, smoking pot, smoking cigarettes, stealing albums and was never punished for any of those things. Talk back, talk to a boy in front of my dad, skirt too short, my brother's hair too long - those were the things we had to fear.

Yes, a child with autism needs additional understanding, but still need to learn appropriate behavior. Having a meltdown, needs to be understood and maybe help them find a different way of dealing with things that would lead them to a meltdown (not just a tantrum for not getting the orange cup). But they also need to learn limits - such as it is not okay to hit others and being on the spectrum does not excuse it. Explain personal space and respect and what the consequences for doing so will get them, and make sure they know that those consequences are not idle statements.

I'm a single mother - raised 4 of my own. Have 10 grandchildren, and I will tell you, I could be a strict mom when I needed to be, but when it comes to my grandchildren - I'm going to spoil them - it's my prerogative as a grandparent. When my kids got hurt (I'm also a nurse) I'd say they were fine - sick, I'd say take a Tylenol and go to school. Grandkids, I've got dino bandaids and ready for the smallest injury. But they also know not to expect the same treatment at home. They know the difference.

 

[rainfall]

So my question is this, is there anything wrong interacting with an autistic child as you would a child with no autism? Should you not demand the same behavior, discipline the child the same way you would a child without autism?

First of all, I think it's great you're looking for a place for guidance because of your obvious care and concern for your grandson.

To answer, I think that you'd have to know more information. Do you know what a meltdown or shutdown is as opposed to a tantrum from spoiled behavior?

This is a little piece I copied from autism.org.uk.

"What is a meltdown?
A meltdown is ‘an intense response to overwhelming situations’. It happens when someone becomes completely overwhelmed by their current situation and temporarily loses behavioural control. This loss of control can be expressed verbally (eg shouting, screaming, crying), physically (eg kicking, lashing out, biting) or in both ways.

Autism meltdowns are not the same as temper tantrums
A meltdown is not the same as a temper tantrum. It is not bad or naughty behaviour and should not be considered as such. When a person is completely overwhelmed, and their condition means it is difficult to express that in appropriate way, it is understandable that the result is a meltdown.

Meltdowns are not the only way a person on the autism spectrum may express feeling overwhelmed. Other behaviours that may appear are less explosive but are equally common, such as refusing to interact, withdrawing from situations they find challenging, or avoiding them altogether."

This is from theautismanalyst.com.

"Shutdowns (inward): Shutdowns are less noticeable and are less commonly seen than meltdowns. Shutdowns can be summed up as the 2nd side of the coin. Same coin; two different outcomes. With a shutdown, the child is still experiencing perceived sensory overload to an environmental trigger. The same trigger that caused an outward meltdown in one child, can cause an inward shutdown in another. Shutdowns can be defined as a person’s brain going into a protective mode, where it ‘shuts off’ momentarily. Individuals experiencing sensory shutdown often appear immobile; they may lay in one position and not move or blink. They may not hear their names being called and are unable to respond. These individuals in the midst of a shutdown often retreat from the outside world, by going inside, or within themselves for comfort, in an effort to self-calm and remove whatever caused their stress. To observers (including professionals), these non-behaviors may appear to be functioning as escape/avoidant – as if the child is deliberately ignoring prompts or directives or deliberately trying to avoid a task or something in the environment. Some shutdowns may even go completely unnoticed especially if the child is lower-functioning or nonverbal. Knowing the child’s behavioral history is critical for addressing and intervening with shutdowns."

I'm not endorsing either website but wanted a decent description for you and to let you know that these are general and each person can experience more, less or around the same as what is described.

If either of these things are not happening and he doesn't have any other difficulties or conditions, you could look into him reacting because of being spoiled.

My son has autism and is 9, tall and strong for his age his whole life. His meltdowns at 7 were often violent but he has come a long way from then. I absolutely think he needs discipline but I never liked the "just because" and don't offer that to him. However, he was mostly nonverbal and too active to really get his attention or be able to explain much until a bit after 5, which increased the difficulty. I don't believe in hitting as I was raised in an abusive home and have refused to medicate him for obedience or attention. We work with what he has and how he best understands and can cope with the world.

He absolutley has thrown fits because of someone spoiling him and I get your concern about people being easier on your grandson just because he has autism. The majority of my family treat my son that way and it has caused me plenty of issues with spoiled behavior because it takes him longer to learn certain things. Like, just because he got something one time, he can't expect it every time. He can't get away with me what he can with others because there are different rules in different places. It's confusing enough for any child, but I think it's more difficult for a child with autism and my son has proven that some things take a lot longer for him to grasp. He's very intelligent and learns a lot of things quickly, but has his struggles. I am very fun loving and goofy with him as it's my nature, but he has learned that he must follow rules and why. I never say "because I said so." It didn't make sense to me growing up like most here and I would never give that as a reason for anything. I'd also like to add that sometimes a tantrum can turn into a meltdown and has with my son. He may have started reacting because he didn't get what he wanted but his reaction coupled with various other things, it became a meltdown and he was no longer in control or reacting because he didn't get what he wanted.

I agree with sid's suggestion of learning all you can about autism. I'd also propose, if possible, (I don't know your relationships with your wife and daughter) that you all could have a talk about his behavior, how he should be responded to and the reasons he may act the way he does so he has a more consistent response by those he's close to. My parents disrespected my wishes for a long time and it escalated my son's behavior to the point they finally realized they were being detrimental to him and not helpful. It's still not ideal, but they are more respectful of what I know works best for him and I don't expect them not to spoil him. I DO expect them to not disregard his well being for their own desires to give in to his every whim just because he has autism.

I hope that you can find the right balance for his needs.

 

[Crossbreed]

I guess the difficult part for me will be the interpretation and not knowing who here is indeed autistic, and those who are here as NTs searching for a better understanding.

For that, just click on their profile [name] in the left column.
Click "Profile Page."
Click the "Information" tab.

 

[Streetwise]

Well though NT, I too had physical abuse, and my share of terror, and vowed never to be as my father was, but I think some are reading into me that which they don’t know about me, at the mere mention of discipline?
If a child ourltright ignores an adult, well, there will be limitations for sure, but it cannot be left to stand, can it?

If you can't get into their profile page ,sometimes they block access, type in the name in the search engine and you will get their posts ,what I do is go back to the original post or first one and it will tell you whether they are autistic or neuro typical

 

[Pats]

If you can't get into their profile page ,sometimes they block access, type in the name in the search engine and you will get their posts ,what I do is go back to the original post or first one and it will tell you whether they are autistic or neuro typical

where does it say if you're nt or autistic?

 

[Autistamatic]

where does it say if you're nt or autistic?

It's under the information tab, if the member has filled it in.

 

[Crossbreed]

where does it say if you're nt or autistic?

They often say so in their introduction.

 

[Gracey]

If a child ourltright ignores an adult, well, there will be limitations for sure, but it cannot be left to stand, can it?

I can understand your point of view

If it were me being ignored I’d be processing possible reasons why.

Not to make excuses or let it slide but to understand what’s just happened so that I might try a different approach to being heard,
If indeed I arrived at the conclusion a different approach was necessary.