Aspie (self-diagnosed) - Aspie (suspected) relationship. Looking for advice

[Trellekrona]

** Long post ! **

Hi everyone, I am a self diagnosed Aspie and I have started sometime ago a relationship with a man who may potentially be an Aspie too and while everything at the beginning was great (lots ot abstracts topics to discuss together, lots of fun doing things that other people considered "boring"), we now reached a rocky patch and it is difficult to figure out what's going on.
I am here looking for some advice and to hear if anyone had similar stories.

I believe that one of reasons we fell in love with each other, is that we discovered that we had very similar "special interests", that is to say maths, anthropology, languages and philosophy (mostly asbtract stuff and "theory") and we found our discussions together very fullfilling. It was the first time (for both of us) that we had found someone with similar interests which would not get bored with our way of discussing... Aside from this we thought we were both sensitive and caring (in our ways) people, so we hit off.
Over time, for what I would call "extrinsec factors" to the relation, that is difficulties at work for me, difficulties adjusting to a new life for him (just divorced) and difficulties in having a long distance relation, problems started to show up all over the place.
Actually it's A problem.
At some point I was in need of being reassured about the solidity of the relation (I can become very clingy in relations and I get very scared about the fact that things can suddenly change. Since I notice even tiny changes in people's behaviour, I really need to know what do they mean, and where they can lead to, or I literally panic) and I could not get that from my partner.
First of all he would deny the small changes in his behaviour, but most importantly, when confronted more openly about his feelings he would shut down (mutism first, which would turn into anxiety, with some physical symptomos too). His behaviour (or even worse his random answers! He admitted later on to make things up just to stop me...) would trigger an even greater anxiety in me, with outburst of rage, which would obviously only scare him and it became impossible to discuss any "us" topic.

We are at a breaking point, but I am desperate to save things, because only very recently I have realised that I completely missed how painful his shutdowns were and I also understood that he had no idea about how painful my anxiety was. We could simply not overcome the: "Why doesn't he/she do/understand it?" (Talk/stop talking).
I guess we both wondered how two "clever" people (or this is how we are perceived by friends family etc.) could not get something so "obvious" or "simple" from the other's point of view.

Now my questions are:

1) Is anyone familiar with this situation, that is male with AS that shuts down and female with AS with rage outuburst (trying to predict what will happen) that presses him?

2) Any hope to fix it, now that we know that it's definitely our Achille's heel? (we did not even understand what was going on until very recently, everything just seemed out of control and now he is very very scared of the person he once loved...)

3) While I am quite sure about my AS (will get an official diagnosis maybe in a couple of weeks), I am still unsure about his, but I would like to hear the opinion of someone in the forum.
If he has AS, it's a mild form. Just like I did, he managed to compensate a lot for it and being both in the academic environment helped with our quirks.

When I met him, I noticed a complete absence of eye contact, a limited range of facial expressions, he finds it difficult to "smile" on request, e.g. for pictures. As a child he was quite lonely, sometimes bullied, interested mainly in planes and remote islands. Growing up his "special interests" became more academic, but I believe they still serve some soothing function. He needs time alone, enjoys nature and dislikes crowds. He likes to see things written down, needs sometimes instructions for simple things (I do too). He is not very "literal" (at least compared to me).
His previous relation was simple in the sense that his wife was a very practical person and would require him mainly to manage certain things in the house hold (although over time he suffered with the little time available for himself, having also kids to care for).
He's one of the few people who does not find my being so "logical" strange, except when it comes to feelings. He seems to function more normally then I do in that department, except for the shut downs.

In conclusion, I wonder if looking at THE problem in our relation as caused by the clash bewteen two strong features of a woman and a man both on the spctrum is reasonable or not.

Any comment/help/advice would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[Judge]

Sounds familiar. In some case the more my girlfriends aggressively pursued a reassurance about the solidity of the relationship, the more I might be repelled away from the relationship. It reflected a kind of perceived "pressure" I don't do well with. It wasn't a matter of being fair, but rather simply a way I react to things under certain circumstances.

Almost like an alarm going off. If you try too hard to get too close to me, I'll bolt. Especially at times when I am under stress not necessarily associated with the relationship itself. It may not make any sense, but for me it is what it is.

It's not something I'm proud of...but it happened to me in relationships decades before either of us had a clue that I was on the spectrum. And even if both of you are on the spectrum, you still have to come to grips with the differences between autistic males and females.

At least you are armed with self awareness to some degree. Something I never had that might have saved my relationships.

 

[Trellekrona]

Hi Judge,

thanks a lot for you reply and for telling me about your own experience.

I guess I get it now (especially regarding the fact that the problem was the questioning and not the question) and I wished I had understood it before.
I mean, I will never truly understand it, because I work in a different way, but now that I know that it is a painful thing, I am willing to find ways to get around it, just like I did in the past to minimize my own axienty and clinginess.
I know that certain of our features can't change, but still we can go great lenght in improving our functioning if we know what works (or at least that's how I see it).

Somehow I had the feeling that pressuring him was not good, but since it was such an important issue (as I mentioned before he recently ended another relation and I wanted to know if he had some intentions to go back... so pretty scary for anyone, not just people who are afraid of tiny changes!) I really could not avoid it (but as said above, if I had known that it was so bad, I would have still tried something different...).

By the way, what seems to work with you to relieve some of the pressure? Just let you be? Physical contact? A smile? He did not have many of these shut downs before and he also seems a bit unaware of what works for him...

 

[Cali Cat]

I've been on both ends of that conundrum. I've been the one having the anxiety about the solidity of a relationship, and I've been pressured to reassure someone as to the solidity of our relationship. Both situations are painful.

The best thing I can do is related an example from my most recent failed relationship ...

From the first day I moved in with my "fiance," he made small comments regarding changes in my behavior. Changes I didn't regard as being anything to be alarmed about. I have my moods, and I'm sure my behavior changes accordingly. Factors outside the relationship can often affect my mood also.

Still, my ex would assign meaning to things I did. He decided when I flicked my cigarette a certain way, it indicated I was angry. This type of vigilance on his part made me feel like my every move was observed under a microscope. Then, when he'd ask for reassurances, I felt very pressured and somewhat angry at being watched so closely and (as I viewed it) controlled.

I gave him the reassurances he wanted, but deep down, resentment was growing.

It may be best that your man isn't forthcoming with reassurances he isn't prepared to make. At least he's not just appeasing you like I did with my ex.

For me, the best thing my ex could have done was simply state that he felt insecure in our relationship and would like to know if he had any reason for concern. If he would have done that, I could reassure him and expect that he'd accept it.

Maybe your man feels like he is under a microscope too?

As for how to handle your own insecurities, that's a tougher dilemma. I notice all the small changes in behaviors too. I think the most important thing is to not jump to conclusions. Don't imagine the worst either. Try to be rational and understand many things could be contributing factors to what you are perceiving.

At this point, you have to determine if he is still on board with the relationship. If so, then you need to apologize for your outbursts and ask if you two can start over with a clean slate. Try to come to some understand of each others' needs. If you find he cannot accommodate your needs sufficiently, then you must ask yourself if you want to stay in the relationship at all.

I hope things work out for you. Good luck!

 

[Judge]

By the way, what seems to work with you to relieve some of the pressure? Just let you be? Physical contact? A smile? He did not have many of these shut downs before and he also seems a bit unaware of what works for him...

Solitude. It allows me to "recharge my batteries" and be more social- and acceptable.

 

[Trellekrona]

First of all thanks a lot for your answer Cali!

Still, my ex would assign meaning to things I did. He decided when I flicked my cigarette a certain way, it indicated I was angry. This type of vigilance on his part made me feel like my every move was observed under a microscope. Then, when he'd ask for reassurances, I felt very pressured and somewhat angry at being watched so closely and (as I viewed it) controlled.

This sounds definitely familiar
He also once stated that I seemed to attach a huge meaning to unimportant things...

Looking back, I am sure that I overdid it. Under normal circumstances I don't think I would have behaved that way and I would have tried to filter out (or simply avoid to interpret) some of the "signals" that my radar was catching.
The only thing I can say to excuse my behaviour is that my anxiety started to grow exponentially when he once stated that he thought he had made a mistake and perhaps he wanted to go back to his previous relation.

It may be best that your man isn't forthcoming with reassurances he isn't prepared to make. At least he's not just appeasing you like I did with my ex.

For me, the best thing my ex could have done was simply state that he felt insecure in our relationship and would like to know if he had any reason for concern. If he would have done that, I could reassure him and expect that he'd accept it.

I couldn't agree more with this.
If he had said only once that he was uncertain and confused and he had promised me to try to figure it out (possibly in a reassuring tone and not in panic, like when he made his original statement, since he was afraid I would not take it well... ), I would have been fine with that.

I think we had for quite some time a very major misunderstanding regarding how we function.

I do not mind the content of what people tell me: as long as they mean it, I take in absolutely anything. On the other hand, I go nuts if people tell me something that they don't mean just to please me or that they only partially mean and unfortuntaly I can detect that pretty well... These situations are a torture for me.

He has serious problems with confrontations and as a consequence he's a bit of a pleaser. In his previous relation he would always agree with his partner, even when deep inside he didn't, just to avoid discussions (she could get upset easily).
But that's not really how I work: I simply want honesty and even uncertainty is OK, if I am told that's there and thus I should expect it.

As for how to handle your own insecurities, that's a tougher dilemma. I notice all the small changes in behaviors too. I think the most important thing is to not jump to conclusions. Don't imagine the worst either. Try to be rational and understand many things could be contributing factors to what you are perceiving.

This is a very good advice, especially about not imagining the worst straight away.
As for trying to being rational, that's what I typically try to do and it often works well.
However, since our relation started out as very complicated, mainly because of his confusion about his feelings, we got a pretty explosive mix eventually.
In previous relations I felt much more in control of things (actually the relation I had before this one was even "easy" in this respect: my partner was very stubborn on things and this would give me a lot of reassurance) and I almost never had outbursts like the ones I had with him...

At this point, you have to determine if he is still on board with the relationship. If so, then you need to apologize for your outbursts and ask if you two can start over with a clean slate.

Yes, that's what I am currently trying to figure out.
I already apologized for all the hurt and the pain and I tried to explain that only very recently I really understood where my difficulties and my anxiety were coming from.
I hope he will be forgiving and maybe willing to give it another try.

Concerning the question about his abilities to meet my needs, that's a good and important one.
His pleasing nature does not seem to fit well with my need for straight answers (or no answer, whatever, but not a guess about the answer I would like to hear!). I am prone to think that this behaviour grew stronger in his previous relation and that now he has a hard time to abandon it. I noticed that a few times he disagreed with me, and I thought that was some progress, so perhaps things can get better, or at least I hope so!

In any case thanks a lot for your answer, it has been very helpful and has given a very good perpespective on things!

 

[Trellekrona]

Solitude. It allows me to "recharge my batteries" and be more social- and acceptable.

It sounds like a sensible advice, thanks!

I will certainly follow it, in case I am given "a second chance" (my partner is currently deciding if the understanding of how we both work - which is a very recent discovery - is sufficient to forget about all the mess that happened so far and to prevent more hurt in the future...)

 

[eonbus]

Usually feeling come and go.

 

[Mia]

One of the things I've noticed about my Aspie spouse, is that he dislikes and or avoids emotions that emanate from others that seem too strong or volatile. These emotions seems to make him uncomfortable, anxious, when they come from another person, as he doesn't really like the extremes. I suspect that his sensitivity creates a kind of belief that it is his fault or he must somehow take responsibility for them. Even though he doesn't cause them to happen.

He does not recognize certain emotions in other people, and sees sadness, depression, melancholy, or their opposites as anger or happiness. Suppose it's why in general that it makes him uncomfortable. Under certain circumstances he will shut down, usually related to emotional extremes on the part of others, and disappear to be by himself.

Don't think that it's because he can't handle these emotions from others, he simply does not know how to fix them or help in any way. And like many Aspies who have plumbed the depths of those perceptions by themselves, they eventually realize that that can't be responsible for others emotions, and they withdraw. Thinking that the person will do as they have, and figure it out on their own.

 

[Trellekrona]

One of the things I've noticed about my Aspie spouse, is that he dislikes and or avoids emotions that emanate from others that seem too strong or volatile. These emotions seems to make him uncomfortable, anxious, when they come from another person, as he doesn't really like the extremes. I suspect that his sensitivity creates a kind of belief that it is his fault or he must somehow take responsibility for them. Even though he doesn't cause them to happen.

This is a good point and I think it's somewhat true also in our case.
He has no problem with strong positive emotions, but there is clearly a problem when sadness, anger or something else takes over (in other people).
I am also very sensitive to other people's emotions and for example, if I am in a room and I sense tension, I tend to go away from there as soon as I can. However, if the people in that room are close/special to me my attitude is different: in that case I am willing to understand what is going on and see if I can do anything to "fix" the situation.
I thought it would be the same for him, but clearly it's not. He feels uncomfortable, no matter who's on the other side (but of course I have no doubts that he wishes he could do something to help out when he sees me sad, or upset...).

He does not recognize certain emotions in other people, and sees sadness, depression, melancholy, or their opposites as anger or happiness. Suppose it's why in general that it makes him uncomfortable. Under certain circumstances he will shut down, usually related to emotional extremes on the part of others, and disappear to be by himself.

This also seems to be true in my partner's case. I guess not recognizing certain emotions in other people may also come from not recognizing them in yourself in the first place.
Anyone agrees with this?

He often told me that he never gets angry, but rather sad, and even claimed that the last time he got upset at someone was around the age of 8 after a fight with another child. I thought this was highly unusual (well, it certainly is for someone who instead has meltdowns instead of withdrawal...).
However, recently, due to the many fights we had, I could clearly recognize a very distant behaviour and he would even make not-so-nice remarks (extremely unusual for him) which is precisely what people do when they are hurt.
I asked him what he was feeling and he was not able to explain it, he said he almost never felt that way, but he did not classify it as anger... but I really think that's what it was (also because it was truly justified...)

 

[Mia]

However, recently, due to the many fights we had, I could clearly recognize a very distant behaviour and he would even make not-so-nice remarks (extremely unusual for him) which is precisely what people do when they are hurt.
I asked him what he was feeling and he was not able to explain it, he said he almost never felt that way, but he did not classify it as anger... but I really think that's what it was (also because it was truly justified...)

This is very familiar to me as well.

It may be the real difference between female and male aspies. Aspie females learn quite early in their lives to socialize, at least I did. Studied interaction between people quite early on, making it part of my repertoire to fit in. My brother continually got into physical fights with his friends, his socialization skills were poor. His burning anger at a young age triumphed over most other interaction with people. At that same age, I played and talked and had many friends. Later on, sports and schooling seemed to make him more compliant to authority figures. He learned about hierarchy among men, which was his form of socialization.

Think that you have to now look at this as two different cultures coming together, male and female upbringings which were different, and figure in the differences of two Aspies in addition to that. Beyond that, there is the idea that many Aspies remember every hurt, insult, slur and it stays with them for their entire life, it's like an open wound that never heals. Each time there is an argument or a fight they think that this is another difficulty that they are somehow at fault about. They take it personally, they think it's somehow their difficulty, even if they don't understand the subtleties of the moment.

One of the most important things I've learned as an Aspie married to another Aspie, is an even, calm approach to any differences. I learned argumentation, debate and critical thinking to communicate in a productive way and problem-solve. This has been the best thing I could do for my thirty+ marriage. One logic course, one critical thinking course was all it took to erase the difficulties of communication. And although at times it's difficult to stay even-tempered, it's created a strong relationship in taking those steps in communication. Not only has it helped me, it's helped my marriage.

 

[Trellekrona]

This is very familiar to me as well.

It may be the real difference between female and male aspies. Aspie females learn quite early in their lives to socialize, at least I did. Studied interaction between people quite early on, making it part of my repertoire to fit in.

I agree with this... I did exactly the same and funnily enough, probably because of this continous exercise, I do very few faux pas in all kinds of social situations, especially with NTs.
But he is not! And I really did not think at the beginning that he could have a different functioning! If I had had a clue about it, all this would have been avoided

Think that you have to now look at this as two different cultures coming together, male and female upbringings which were different, and figure in the differences of two Aspies in addition to that. Beyond that, there is the idea that many Aspies remember every hurt, insult, slur and it stays with them for their entire life, it's like an open wound that never heals. Each time there is an argument or a fight they think that this is another difficulty that they are somehow at fault about. They take it personally, they think it's somehow their difficulty, even if they don't understand the subtleties of the moment.

There is a lot of truth in this as well.
I also get hurt very easily, however, if the person is very close to me and they apologize, I forgive them (also quite quickly). Knowing that they did not mean it and knowing that they always had good intentions is enough for me.
My partner now states the same about all the fights, but I can see that he is very hurt and does not feel that things are OK.

More and more I have the impression (and he also confirmed it) that until he started his relation with me, he did not know himself at all. Plenty of things that he has been feeling recently are completely new to him and since he has a hard time giving feedback on how he feels (even a simple good/bad), it's also difficult for me to adjust my behaviour.
I don't mind at all bending towards him, but I often wish he could tell what his needs are or show it more clearly.

One of the most important things I've learned as an Aspie married to another Aspie, is an even, calm approach to any differences. I learned argumentation, debate and critical thinking to communicate in a productive way and problem-solve. This has been the best thing I could do for my thirty+ marriage. One logic course, one critical thinking course was all it took to erase the difficulties of communication. And although at times it's difficult to stay even-tempered, it's created a strong relationship in taking those steps in communication. Not only has it helped me, it's helped my marriage.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this great advice.
Learning how to argue and debate peacefully in all circumstances (I have recently been under a huge amount of pressure and I found it harder to be as patient as I usually am) is certainly a key for our relation to work.
I guess we both have things to work on, but while I have been working on them for a few years already, to improve previous relations, he essentially never did so.
I also think it would help him to be aware of his own functioning a bit better (and be fine with it! Of course there is nothing wrong with the way he is). If he accepted that, he would see easily that the reason why his previous relation had only a couple of confrontations (which immeditately led to a break up) is a coincidence and that it's "normal" to sometimes discuss feelings and needs within the couple, even verbally...