Aspergers and NVLD Are they the same?

[Arashi222]

If this isn't the right place you are more than welcome mods to move this to the best place.

I have been doing some research in light of my re-evaluation. I was told that I have something called NVLD (non-verbal Learning Disorder) and Cognitive processing disorder. With slight AS (since AS is going away) Now my questions to all of you is after reading all the literature I find that its really splitting psychological hairs on the matter. I am wondering what other people's thoughts are on this topic. NVLD effects all aspects of a child and in several of the articles I have read indicated that NVLD is a form of AS.
What is NLD Syndrome?
The articles I have read indicate that NVLD is a different perspective taken on the same group of people that could be diagnosed with AS.

 

[King_Oni]

I read the article and discussed it with my girlfriend the other day and she pretty much felt she fit the profile (and she has been floating on the spectrum. One doc said it's PDD, the other said it's AS) Looking at myself, I don't fit the profile as much as she does.

It made me go over things that didn't neccesarily apply to me. Though, as a kid I had other difficulties then I have now. I remember as a kid I wasn't able to subtract anything and now I can easily do more advanced math without any aid (no paper nor calculator).

I didn't run into any notion of empathy (or the lacktherof) in the article about NLD, while I think it's a fairly common thing amongst people on the spectrum.

Because of social skills as well as the math thing (two things that I kept thinking about while reading it), it makes me think that just like in sciences, where there's alpha, beta and gamma sciences. Anyone not familiar with those terms (for a really simple explanation);

Alpha; stuff like history and languages
Beta; Math, physics, biology
Gamma; Sociology, psychology

To me it sounds more that NLD people would qualify as a "Gamma"-aspie in that sense. They might be more social, have more social skills, have more empathy. Whereas, there are still "beta"-aspies that excel in these beta sciences and perhaps have a more rational and "cold" train of thought and lack empathy. Honestly, I don't have a group for alpha direction, but perhaps that's the middleground, whereas Gamma and Beta are the opposites of either side in terms of a scale.

Exceptions however apply for every theory.

 

[HelloDizzy]

NVLD has the same criteria as AS but it leaves out the stronger AS traits so they don't have to diagnosed more functional Aspies with Autism in the new DSM.
Political in my opinion, gathered from my studies of this subject.

 

[Arashi222]

I also wonder if this is going to be a trend since the new DSM is taking away PDD NOS and AS. Also I wonder with what Dizzy is saying in that is it political or just a differing perspective on the same group of people. Could it be that really NVLD is AS only more diagnosed in females but then that wouldn't account for the female and male brain being inherently different to begin with. I just wonder I hope that people will keep talking about this as I am curious.

 

[wyverary]

As someone diagnosed with NVLD this thread could be enlightening. Interestingly, as it was described to me (by a doctor who dug up the diagnosis much later, of which I had been ignorant until then), and it seems to me the distinctions can be rather subtle. That could also be why I never really looked into it before, or even thought much about it. I went through the list of symptoms and hope to learn a little more.

Could it be that really NVLD is AS only more diagnosed in females but then that wouldn't account for the female and male brain being inherently different to begin with.

I was never very manly anyway.

 

[Arashi222]

As someone diagnosed with NVLD this thread could be enlightening. Interestingly, as it was described to me (by a doctor who dug up the diagnosis much later, of which I had been ignorant until then), and it seems to me the distinctions can be rather subtle. That could also be why I never really looked into it before, or even thought much about it. I went through the list of symptoms and hope to learn a little more.

I was never very manly anyway.

So Wyv since you are also dx'd with NVLD and AS like me. I find that I feel like its AS with a side of AS. I am wondering though as you said that the differences are a tad subtle and I do honestly wonder if it really is just a different perspective on the same group of people. Calling a Rose by another name it still has the same issues right? Keep talking people. I really want to get feedback about this. I think its interesting and fascinating especially with the new DSM coming out.

 

[wyverary]

I have never weighed in on the DSM-V debate, as I am not a psychologist or even do not have much of a layman's understanding. Issues like this, though, make me wonder if maybe there is some well-founded reason for lumping together some of these diagnoses, even if they are not going about it particularly well.

Another thing that struck me was how there are a few of these traits--poor mathematical reasoning, for example--that applied to me very well as a teenager, but seem to have gotten better over the last decade, which makes me wonder if NVLD makes sense from a purely pathological point of view, or if perhaps it is, in my case, simply a particular manifestation at a particular point in my development; or even if it is a clinically useful diagnosis at all.

 

[Arashi222]

It is interesting that your Mathematics skills seem to have gotten better. Mine however, have stayed the same. I am curious if you are still diagnosed with NVLD and AS or if you just have the AS dx. I also wonder about how NVLD is a slightly differing perspective about the same group of people. I was reading both and comparing them and thinking that well no one fits entirely with any dx that is just human not to fit completely into a box but to wonder if maybe those subtle differences are really nothing more than the human being dx'd and the preference of the tester?

 

[wyverary]

I could not say "still diagnosed," as I have not been evaluated since the initial diagnosis. My current therapist seems to think it is definitely Aspergers, but then again, I have never gotten very in-depth about it with him either, and it is likely that he too thinks the distinction is too fuzzy (at least in my case) for it to matter very much.

maybe those subtle differences are really nothing more than the human being dx'd and the preference of the tester?

I think in a great many cases that is extremely likely. There is no escaping bias on the part of the tester and, in most cases, of the patient as well. As for "not fit[ting] completely into a box," I do not think any reasonably competent psychologist would say otherwise--which, as I said, seems a legitimate rationale for consolidating some of these diagnoses.

NVLD has the same criteria as AS but it leaves out the stronger AS traits so they don't have to diagnosed more functional Aspies with Autism in the new DSM.

What are "the stronger AS traits"?

 

[Arashi222]

Here Wyv this might help in that AS traits. Though that was Dizzy that spoke of those.
Aspergers Disorder (AD) is characterized by:
A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction

Failure to use non-verbal social skills (i.e. eye contact, gestures, body posture, facial expressions)
Developmentally inappropriate peer relationships
Lack of spontaneous sharing of enjoyment and interests with other people
Lack of social and emotional reciprocity
B. Restricted, repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities.

Preoccupation that is overly intense and narrow
Inflexible adherence to non-functional or peripheral routines
Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements
Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
C. These problems taken together (A plus B) result in significant challenges in the lives of people with AD as they attempt to live in a neurotypical world and meet the expectations of others.
D. There is no general language delay.
E. There is no severe global cognitive impairment.

Non-Verbal Learning Disability (NVLD)
A. NVLD can be conceptualized as an imbalance in thinking skills?intact linear, detail oriented, automatic processing with impaired appreciation of the big picture, gestalt or underlying theme.

B. It is not nearly as common as language-based learning disabilities, but this may be a phenomenon created by environmental demands (i.e. our societal demands for precision skills in reading assure that even the most subtle language-based LD cases are identified)

C. Typically social/psychiatric concerns are raised before academic problems are identified.

D. While the overlap is not complete, NVLD children may meet the criteria for Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (PDD NOS), Aspergers Disorder, or Schizotypal Personality.

Neuropsychological Profile:
Full range of IQ
Visual spatial deficits are most pronounced: poor appreciation of gestalt, poor appreciation of body in space, sometimes left side inattention/neglect, may have highly developed but ritualized drawing skills that are extremely detail oriented.

Rote linguistic skills are normal (i.e. repetition, naming, fluency, syntactic comprehension), but pragmatic use of language is impaired: weak grasp of inference, little content, disorganized narrative despite good vocabulary and grammar. Rote recall of a story may be good, but the main point missed. Rhythm, volume, and prosody of speech are often disturbed.

Motor and sensory findings are common: usually poor fine and gross motor coordination, left side worse than right.

Attention is usually reported to be impaired and testing supports this, but the affect is desultory as opposed to distractingly impulsive, as in ADHD. It is as if people with NVLD do not know what to attend to, but once focused, can sustain attention to detail. The distinction between figure and ground is disturbed, resulting in attention errors.

Academics:
Difficulties are often picked up late because decoding and spelling may be quite strong.
Inferential reading comprehension is weak relative to decoding and spelling skills.
Math is often the first academic subject to be viewed as problematic. Spatial and conceptual aspects of mathematics are a problem; math facts may be readily mastered. I.e., a student may know the answer to a simple multiplication problem, but not understand what multiplication is.
Due to spatial and fine motor problems, handwriting is usually poor.
Organization skills are weak, particularly in written work.

Social/emotional issues:
Peer relations are typically the greatest area of impairment; may play with much older or younger children than with same age peers where they must manage give and take.
They often lack basic social skills; may stand too close, stare inappropriately or not make eye contact, have marked lack of concern over appearance, be oblivious to other?s reactions, change topics idiosyncratically.
Children with NVLD are seen as ?odd? children who ?just don?t get it? socially. They may do better with adults, where they act dependent and immature, but may not be seen as ?odd.
They may show poorly modulated affect, not matched to verbal content.
Lack of empathy and social judgment may shield them from fully experiencing the hurt of peer rejection, while the same factors increase the likelihood of being rejected.
History of unusual thinking can often be obtained: rituals, stereotypic behaviors, rigid routines, and magical/bizarre beliefs.

 

[wyverary]

Ah, thanks Arashi, I finally found that page.

In my case, I seem to meet a lot of criteria for both AS and NVLD, and of course not all of either apply to me either. Overlap? Spectrum? Or perhaps more akin to a great big pot of magical cerebral stew?

 

[Arashi222]

Ah, thanks Arashi, I finally found that page.

In my case, I seem to meet a lot of criteria for both AS and NVLD, and of course not all of either apply to me either. Overlap? Spectrum? Or perhaps more akin to a great big pot of magical cerebral stew?

Ohh sure no problem Wyv.

I guess I just really want to talk about this becuase I think its interesting with how much NVLD is AS. I mean you have a lots of people that don't fit the critera perfectly for anything. Its just a bunch of symptoms too. I don't know. Magical stew maybe. I just think that NVLD is way too much like AS and I think that it seems like its AS with a side of AS. Stronger or not in some areas.

 

[wyverary]

Ohh sure no problem Wyv.

I guess I just really want to talk about this becuase I think its interesting with how much NVLD is AS. I mean you have a lots of people that don't fit the critera perfectly for anything. Its just a bunch of symptoms too. I don't know. Magical stew maybe. I just think that NVLD is way too much like AS and I think that it seems like its AS with a side of AS. Stronger or not in some areas.

Yes. I know in my case—and I hate talking about ME but that is currently all I have to go on, so apologies—the evaluator and my subsequent therapists certainly understood the fuzziness, so most of the treatment they gave me and the information they gave my parents (I managed to dig up the old paperwork from when I received the diagnosis, as well as find some of the literature they have my parents) was pretty much geared towards more "traditional" AS. So from the information I have I can induce that your conclusion "AS with a side of AS" is accurate.

 

[Arashi222]

I just wonder with the DSM changes and how that is going to be affecting things if people with AS are going to be more diagnosed with Autism or are they going to get diagnosed with NVLD instead.

 

[WildCat]

Reading some of the characteristics of NVLD, I seem to fit some of that profile, yet not all of it. I tend to lean towards the visual side of thought, though, so I'm only taking this with a grain of salt. NVLD implies deficits in non-verbal skills which would result in an IQ gap between verbal and non-verbal tasks, right?

 

[wyverary]

I can't lie- the more I read on this topic, the more confused I get. I may have to personally ask an expert.

 

[Arashi222]

I can't lie- the more I read on this topic, the more confused I get. I may have to personally ask an expert.

Well you are not alone. I have been diagnosed with both. NVLD and Aspergers/PDD NOS ( he couldn't decide so he gave me both sorta) but that is why I am convinced they are in the same family at least maybe not the same maybe mild AS I don't know for sure and you know what from what i have read and talked to the neuropsych that really its the opinion of the evaluator and their bias' at the time of testing.

 

[NLDer]

NVLD has the same criteria as AS but it leaves out the stronger AS traits so they don't have to diagnosed more functional Aspies with Autism in the new DSM.
Political in my opinion, gathered from my studies of this subject.

As someone with NVLD, I disagree.

I think there are many similarities but also many strong differences between Aspies and NVLDers and I've known some people with Aspergers and always thought they had some strong differences with me (though of course all NVLDers and Apsies are unique).

The biggest indicator I think with NVLD and the difference between it and Aspergers is that very often those with Aspergers are very good if not downright gifted when it comes to math and science, and often not quite so adept at languages and humanities, at times perhaps have dyslexia or difficulty with reading and writing based studies.

On the other hand, people with NVLD I think pretty much by definition have severe learning disabilities in math and science.

That is how I was first diagnosed when I was a kid, when standardized tests showed a HUGE discrepancy between my reading, writing and abstract reasoning skills which were off the chart, and my mathematical skills which were very poor.

Also, I think NVLDers tend to often have a bit more empathy than some Aspies, though I am sure this isn't always the case, and I have noticed some people I've known with Aspergers to have difficulty with eye contact, which I never experienced.

One kid I know with Aspergers right now is very different than I was at his age. For example, when he loses in sports to people who have been playing various games MUCH longer than him and are much more experienced, he seems to get very upset and doesn't seem to grasp the concept of "one person having more experience than another".

However, when he wins, he is entirely emotionless.

Now, these traits or tendencies are not universal to Aspies, and I appologize profusely if I am in any way being stereotypical which I probably am...it's just that I don't know many Aspies other than him, but I do know myself as an NLDer.

I...on the other hand...have never had problems understanding that one person who has been practicing a certain skill for long periods of time SHOULD be better than another, and did not have this problem at his age either, and when I win in competitive sports, I am OVERLY emotional.

I see some people with Aspergers as being somewhat "cold and clinical" whereas people with NLD like me are passionate and strongly seek experiences which can bring them closer to others...except that we often don't know quite how to initiate the interactions.

I think many people with Aspergers like to work with computers, moving parts, numbers and like to overly "rational" without utilizing a great deal of "abstract reasoning" and would rather avoid subjects like psychology, spirituality, religion, mythology, etc.

NLDers like me feel VERY lost when it comes to computers, electronics, moving parts and numbers and rather than wanting to be overly rational we tend to be overly emotional (or at least I PERSONALLY am).

I tend to see ONLY the possible outcome of a situation and get lost in the details...while I think that many Aspies are extremely detail oriented.

On the other hand, I'd also say I'm very detail oriented in a way, but when it comes to figuring out steps to take to accomplish a goal I often draw a blank....

It's hard to explain.

I've noticed Aspies to often not be musically or artistically inclined (but that may just be my stereotype) whereas I am quite interested in music.

But again, MANY of these I know are HUGE generalizations and stereotypes which I again applogize for since I don't know many Aspies.

I simply think that when it comes to academic strengths and emotionality there are VAST differences between NLD and Aspergers.

In fact, it confuses me that some here are diagnosed with BOTH...because one of...if not THE single most important criteria for NLD is "a huge discrepancy between language and mathematical studies with strength in english and humanities and weakness in math and sciences".

If someone has weakness in BOTH these areas....well....I'm not sure which category they'd fall into.

However, I think NVLD is unique from Aspergers, though similar in some ways, completely opposite in others.

I don't know enough though and it will be interesting as more comes out about NLD as a diagnosis in the future.

I think it is quite unfortunate that it isn't well understood like Aspergers.

 

[XrayMe]

NVLD has the same criteria as AS but it leaves out the stronger AS traits so they don't have to diagnosed more functional Aspies with Autism in the new DSM.
Political in my opinion, gathered from my studies of this subject.

You all know that they are moving to the ICD-10 this autumn, correct?