Aphantasia and Autism

[ghostie]

Hello.

I was recently diagnosed to be on the spectrum with what would have been Asperger's. One thing I learned about during the diagnosis process was a mental phenomenon which people have begun calling Aphantasia which is where the person cannot see mental images. This is a condition from which I suffer, though I am not willing to say I have Aphantasia because in the last month or so since I found out, I have been able to make some, albeit rudimentary, progress towards viewing mental images.

It's a strange feeling, I can conjure the image, that is to say I know I'm thinking about a thing, I know what the thing looks like, I can pull the image into my head, it just never comes into focus beyond anything more than a dark blur.

I have had a few experiences through meditation or deep focus on imagery that were in full colour, and a few of them were even fairly clear in focus if not detail. It gives me hope that it was a number of, admittedly odd and self-defeating, rules that I placed and then strictly followed on my thinking patterns that stunted my brains development when I was a child and that with practice, my brain can begin to develop this ability.

I'm very interested in this topic for reasons that go far beyond the ability to see things. I feel that I have a brain that was meant to think in images instead of words (I know it sounds ridiculous coming from someone who can't even see images) and that my inability to see the images that my brain is conjuring is very detrimental to my ability to think and function.

Anyways, I was curious if anyone else had any experience with this as the professor who is researching Aphantasia is exploring a link between Autism and Aphantasia as sometimes they can come together. This is something that I have a hard time really putting into words how important it is to me and well yeah.. thanks for reading.

 

[Ylva]

Well, I have hyper-phantasia, and I do think that is linked to my autism. So perhaps aphantasia is, too. Our neurology has a tendency to get a bit extreme.

On a related note, I seem to for the most part lack a sense of smell, and I think that can have something to do with suppressing it as a young child. I have sensory processing disorder, and learning to completely ignore one sense so hard it basically stopped working would have made sense.

For what it's worth, I don't think "we" (autistics) think in pictures, so much as in concepts.

 

[Crossbreed]

Many of us have prosopagnosia [face-blindness] which might be considered to be a subset of aphantasia. (Would "elephantasia" mean that one cannot tell pachyderms apart...?

)

As an amateur figure artist/eidonomist, I can pose human figures in my head, but their faces & physiques are inconsistent when I draw them. So I keep a collection of heads to look at.

 

[ghostie]

Well, I have hyper-phantasia, and I do think that is linked to my autism. So perhaps aphantasia is, too. Our neurology has a tendency to get a bit extreme.

On a related note, I seem to for the most part lack a sense of smell, and I think that can have something to do with suppressing it as a young child. I have sensory processing disorder, and learning to completely ignore one sense so hard it basically stopped working would have made sense.

Thanks this helps a lot. I kind of feel like this is what I've done as well. From an early age I can remember being repulsed by human skin, the texture of it, the feeling and the look of it, the things that grow on it, it made me feel nauseous and I definitely did (and still do) stop myself from looking too closely at another person's face or any exposed skin. I think from there I transferred my not wanting to look too closely at detail" to other things as well. I am now finding that I get a physical pleasure feeling (from time to time) when I look very closely (the staring I used to get in trouble for as a child) at something that I find appealing (such as tree bark, or leaf patterns, or the way branches branch) and so am taking the time to look closely and inspect things, hoping that this stimulates the visual parts of my brain.

For what it's worth, I don't think "we" (autistics) think in pictures, so much as in concepts.

Oh this is interesting. I'm still very new to this and trying to learn (and very confused about my mind as the rules I placed on it start to unravel). I'll have to look into this because this feels like it might help me further understand how my brain works, it feels right in other words.

Thanks for the post.

 

[ghostie]

Many of us have prosopagnosia [face-blindness] which might be considered to be a subset of aphantasia. (Would "elephantasia" mean that one cannot tell pachyderms apart...?

)

As an amateur figure artist/eidonomist, I can pose human figures in my head, but their faces & physiques are inconsistent when I draw them. So I keep a collection of heads to look at.

That's a great idea, I'm starting to sketch out the leaves and other identifying details of plants I find in the help that the act of drawing them out will help them stay in my mind longer, I'm not sure it will help in the long run but at least I'll have a collection of sketches to look back on similar to your collection of heads.

So do you have prosopagnosia? And you're able to see human figures in your head but their faces are blank?

Hopefully my questions aren't seen as rude, I'm just trying to figure out some things.

Thanks for the post too

 

[Pats]

This is actually one of those subjects that trouble me. Because it makes me want to compare imagining something to seeing it. I can imagine what something will look like, but the imagery is different than when I physically see it.

 

[Pats]

That's a great idea, I'm starting to sketch out the leaves and other identifying details of plants I find in the help that the act of drawing them out will help them stay in my mind longer, I'm not sure it will help in the long run but at least I'll have a collection of sketches to look back on similar to your collection of heads.

So do you have prosopagnosia? And you're able to see human figures in your head but their faces are blank?

Hopefully my questions aren't seen as rude, I'm just trying to figure out some things.

Thanks for the post too

When walking through a crowd, I see just a bunch of human shadows - faceless. I used to get a feeling of panic every time I had to go pick up any of my kids from something because I knew I would not be able to pick them out of the crowd and it made me feel horrible as a parent. It wasn't until a couple years ago when I realized and was diagnosed that I learned about the prosopagnosia, which helped me feel less guilty. I also realize that's why I take a lot of pictures. I remember the pictures.

 

[ghostie]

When walking through a crowd, I see just a bunch of human shadows - faceless. I used to get a feeling of panic every time I had to go pick up any of my kids from something because I knew I would not be able to pick them out of the crowd and it made me feel horrible as a parent. It wasn't until a couple years ago when I realized and was diagnosed that I learned about the prosopagnosia, which helped me feel less guilty. I also realize that's why I take a lot of pictures. I remember the pictures.

I'm so glad the diagnosis helped you feel less guilty and I hope you'll feel not guilty at all because you surely aren't (though I totally understand how we feel guilty about those things) and that would be a hard and confusing thing to get through, so really instead of guilt you might be able to let yourself feel proud that you were strong and got through it. And hopefully the diagnosis will continue to help because I feel like understanding the problem leads to self acceptance and hopefully one day peace of mind.

 

[ghostie]

This is actually one of those subjects that trouble me. Because it makes me want to compare imagining something to seeing it. I can imagine what something will look like, but the imagery is different than when I physically see it.

Yes, this is how I feel as well. And I am pretty distressed by it. But I am also pretty dedicated to overcoming it and I have seen a number of stories online of people who have been able to go from no mental images to very good mental imagery. I am practicing a number of the techniques they said they used and while I feel it is helping, I think I might be a bit of a harder case than normal (a lot of people report being able to see images after only a month or so of daily practice) so I am struggling.

I also struggle against my own defeatist personality, unfortunately. I am naturally very pessimistic and so I tend to mentally stymie my own attempts to practice.

But, there are a few things I am still continuously doing and I feel that eventually I will be able to open my inner eye. So I am both optimistic and pessimistic I suppose.

 

[Mia]

I am practicing a number of the techniques they said they used and while I feel it is helping, I think I might be a bit of a harder case than normal (a lot of people report being able to see images after only a month or so of daily practice) so I am struggling.

I also cannot see images in my mind. In dreams yes. The things I visualize are more like outlines or descriptions rather than pictures. What are some of the things you do to manage this? I didn't know this was possible.

 

[SDRSpark]

I'm actually not sure about this. I certainly don't think I have aphantasia, after all, I'm an extremely visual thinker. However, like some others have mentioned, my imaginings aren't super detailed or realistic. Like, I can imagine what someone looks like, and I could recognize them if I saw them again. But I couldn't draw them without a reference - in fact I have a horrible time drawing humans most of the time - although I'm very skilled at drawing other things, like flowers.

I have images in my mind all the time, but they're more abstract. Shapes, shadows. If I want more detail, I have to work for it, and "build it" from memory. Sometimes I do, usually I don't bother. It takes effort to construct and hold each piece of an image until I have the entire detailed thing in my mind, than manipulate/explore it at will. I don't usually need that level of detail so I rarely expend the energy.

I have a rich mind-world consisting of images/visual concepts, sounds (well, concepts/imaginings of sounds. I don't physically hear them, but I imagine what they sound like.) and feelings/tactile concepts. Sitting back and actually thinking about it (as I need to do in order to describe it here) is wild. How do I have a mental concept of what something feels like, without physically feeling it? Or what something sounds like, without physically hearing it? Or what something looks like, without physically seeing it?

Having never inhabited anyone else's mind, I can't say how this compares to anyone else's experience. I never really thought about it.

 

[Crossbreed]

So do you have prosopagnosia? And you're able to see human figures in your head but their faces are blank?

Yes, and the figures are rudimentary, too.

I recognize faces that I have repeated exposure to (family members, celebrities, sculpts in my collection), but I can't draw any of them from memory nor describe them beyond hair color and (general) skin color. (I usually miss eye color, unless I make an intentional survey of such.)

 

[Bolletje]

I have a very vivid imagination and my mental images are often way too vivid for my liking. But my imagination can be fun too, it makes me creative.

 

[ghostie]

I also cannot see images in my mind. In dreams yes. The things I visualize are more like outlines or descriptions rather than pictures. What are some of the things you do to manage this? I didn't know this was possible.

One of the methods that at least a few people claimed to have done this is to sit and focus on what you can see (some people can see sort of dim outlines, some people can see nothing, but even the people that can see absolutely nothing can begin to practice by using the light of a candle in a dark room for example, then closing your eyes and looking at the outline after image of the candle flame) and then as you are focusing on your vision you need to be describing, in as much detail as you can, what you are seeing. Make sure to include your other senses as well, for example if you're trying to visualize a forest, try to imagine the smell of wet moss, or perhaps a bit of a chill on your skin if you're a high altitude mountain fan as myself, all of these things will help your mind to bring the visualization more into focus.

The act of describing it is very important. One of the hypotheses I've seen for Aphantasia is inadequate communication between the verbal and visual parts of the brain, so describing what you see out loud is very important. It's also why I struggle with this as I have a very hard time speaking at all, even in my own home with no one around but my cat, it's normally not a problem for me, but obviously here it is really hindering me.

However, I have recently started keeping a dream journal, so whenever I wake up if I can remember even one tiny detail about my dream I will begin to write it in my journal. The act of even just starting to write it immediately stimulates my mind to recall more details.

Actually, as I'm writing this I'm thinking, guh ghostie you're such an idiot... just write descriptions of what you're trying to visualize if you can't speak them and it should work just the same.

Sometimes I just don't get something until I write it out haha, so ok, I'm going to try to spend at least 30 minutes per day trying to visualize and type what I see into a word processor instead of speaking it and see if that helps.

 

[ghostie]

I'm actually not sure about this. I certainly don't think I have aphantasia, after all, I'm an extremely visual thinker. However, like some others have mentioned, my imaginings aren't super detailed or realistic. Like, I can imagine what someone looks like, and I could recognize them if I saw them again. But I couldn't draw them without a reference - in fact I have a horrible time drawing humans most of the time - although I'm very skilled at drawing other things, like flowers.

I have images in my mind all the time, but they're more abstract. Shapes, shadows. If I want more detail, I have to work for it, and "build it" from memory. Sometimes I do, usually I don't bother. It takes effort to construct and hold each piece of an image until I have the entire detailed thing in my mind, than manipulate/explore it at will. I don't usually need that level of detail so I rarely expend the energy.

I have a rich mind-world consisting of images/visual concepts, sounds (well, concepts/imaginings of sounds. I don't physically hear them, but I imagine what they sound like.) and feelings/tactile concepts. Sitting back and actually thinking about it (as I need to do in order to describe it here) is wild. How do I have a mental concept of what something feels like, without physically feeling it? Or what something sounds like, without physically hearing it? Or what something looks like, without physically seeing it?

Sounds like you have a much better capacity for visualization than I do. A lot of your descriptions, however, feel similar to how I feel. Imagining what a sound would sound like if I could hear it and imagining what a picture would look like if I could see it are two things I feel. Lately I've been attempting to expand my capacity for mental imagery so I have been spending time sniffing my scented inks and then trying to hold that scent in my head. Scent is definitely harder for me, but I can kind of feel the sense awakening a bit.

Having never inhabited anyone else's mind, I can't say how this compares to anyone else's experience. I never really thought about it.

I didn't really think about it before either. But while I was being diagnosed my psychiatrist lent me a movie about Temple Grandin and I got partway through and was like, "Wait, what? People can actually see things in their head?" I had just thought it was a metaphor before. I googled it then and that's when I found out about Aphantasia. Been on a bit of a quest since then to cure myself. But also I have become more interested in trying to find out actual descriptions from people about what it's like to be inside their head. I wonder in what other ways we are all different inside? It's very interesting to me now.

 

[ghostie]

I have a very vivid imagination and my mental images are often way too vivid for my liking. But my imagination can be fun too, it makes me creative.

Thankfully my creativity has not been hampered by my condition! I am a writer as well and my work is definitely not conventional and I think my stories are generally pretty creative as well.

Funnily enough, when I used to post some of my writing online, a common theme in the comments I received was, "nice use of imagery!" But then again, it was probably for me to include imagery in my writing because to me it was just something to check off the list. Say you're walking through the woods, or the sewer, or it's day, or it's night, or it's raining, what senses would be engaged and what would they be telling you. I just did that little exercise and included it in my writing because I had seen so many other authors do it and just understood it to be the way you write. It wasn't until YEARS later that I would realize that those descriptors in there can actually fire off the senses of some people and so when you write about the scent of walking through a field of lilacs, some people actually smell it!

So I've of course been on a quest to become of those who can do it. When I read now, I really try to visualize.

 

[Bikutoso]

I can think of environments and the events happening in them, but objects are vague to nonexistent. A feeling of being in a familiar room with your eyes closed, but still able to perfectly interact with the environment as if your eyes where open. Shadows and outlines of what once was, details only on interaction.

It is difficult to for me to voluntarily visualize things. Fantasies are common and takes up most of my time, and are commonly a mix between familiarizes, fantasies, and the unknown. So I can easily visualize any room that is familiar, but only clearest in a fantasy.

 

[Kevin L.]

I have problems with recognizing faces, but I can generally work around it (recognizing distinct features like specific jewellery, clothing, voice, height, eyeglasses, and so forth).

The problem is that--during the COVID epidemic--everyone wears a mask, and this made it much worse.

This issue caused people at work to suggest that I'm racist, because my coworkers would say: "All us black people look alike to you, huh?" when I confuse peoples' names.

I try to explain about my prosopagnosia, and then it looks like an excuse.

I still haven't figured out how to fix this issue yet.

 

[Crossbreed]

Some people just don't want to know...

Here is the poster child for prosopagnosia,

Little Red Riding Hood

 

[Streetwise]

I have it because of panic disorder