Antiques vs antique people

[Kalinychta]

As I responded to another comment on this topic I would accept it and move on. I have since messaged her and tried to smooth things over because I do understand how she would feel being told this without context.
I do admit to being tired and irritable and that played into my response. But behind this is a whole lot of **** between us, decades worth, so that comes into play as well. I become very anxious when I have to deal with her and that, on top of being tired, came into play. I was just too tired to deal with her. It's always about how not to piss her off. How to have a conversation on topics where we can just be pleasant. She lives in a very controlled world of those like her. Yeah I could have responded when I was less tired but the whole thing just irritated me more than I already was and still does. I couldn't give her the response she was seeking and I still can't. We have talked about her crafts and she has shown me pics of what she has done and I have been supportive even though I have my own opinions about them.
My sister says many things that I could easily take umbrage to but I don't. It's just the way she is and I let it go. I have never been given that courtesy by her. BTW she isn't interested in anything I find interesting and that's OK too. It does not impact my self worth.
It was just a bad conversation all around and I am moving on.

I see, okay. So the actual issue is your rocky relationship with your sister, not your lack of interest in genealogy. As in, you wouldn’t have responded dismissively if you had a good relationship with her.

 

[ForestGumpett]

Hi Martha;
I’m a simple person, but get what you got going on.

you say right below, you don’t talk much anyway and have a bad history so why are you not able to let it go? And yeah I mean let them go, find other friends that mean more to you than people that you’ve not gotten along with for years? You can love them and let them go. My Christmas list is small and yes relatives I’ve let go just for being mean and nasty and it’s okay.
Just tossing that option out there for you (((Hug)))

No, we don't talk much. Bad history so each interaction is like walking on egg shells.

 

[Martha Ferris]

Hi Martha;
I’m a simple person, but get what you got going on.

you say right below, you don’t talk much anyway and have a bad history so why are you not able to let it go? And yeah I mean let them go, find other friends that mean more to you than people that you’ve not gotten along with for years? You can love them and let them go. My Christmas list is small and yes relatives I’ve let go just for being mean and nasty and it’s okay.
Just tossing that option out there for you (((Hug)))

I can let her go but she keeps contacting me. I can't figure out what she needs from me but becasue she is my sister I keep responding. I keep hoping we can find some peace with each other. Maybe she does too.
Believe me I have no problem letting go of people who do not make my life better. My brothers and I do not have contact with each other and that suits me just fine.

 

[Martha Ferris]

I see, okay. So the actual issue is your rocky relationship with your sister, not your lack of interest in genealogy. As in, you wouldn’t have responded dismissively if you had a good relationship with her.

I probably wouldn't have responded the way I did if I wasn't tired and irritable. I would have tempered my response like I normally do to keep the peace but for the life of me at the time I could not think of another response to make except the one I made. It wasn't an off the cuff response. This huge picture showed up in the message and she wrote what she did about getting her DNA test done. I felt like I was punched in the head.
The subject of geneology riles me. My sister is interested in the events about others lives then makes assumptions about people based on those events. She is not interested in who people are; in their characters. She really likes labels for defining people. Who is good and who is considered not good is based on labels regardless of their actions. She has no interest or tolerence for going deeper into who and why a person is. In fact she becomes very impatient when I bring the subject up. It's far easier to focus on the surface.
Geneology can result in making assumptions about people. I hate assumptions.
Generalities are inherently incorrect. They create delusions and delusions are not based on evidence but are accepted as true anyway. Labels do the same thing. My sister is big into allowing labels to define people. I am not.
Geneology is full of labels and thus assumptions even if we are not aware of making those assumptions. What do we think when we think of the Irish? Native Americans? Jamaicans? The Swiss? Germans? The English? Why do we think that? I could go on and on. How many of much of what we think about these people is based on fact or only an assumtpion? Take any generality about a group of people and you will find assumptions attached.
Labels keep things neat and tidy and one doesn't have to do the work of really finding out who someone is. As a result I have a strong disinterst in geneology. I also have no tribes. I don't have a great attachment to any group or members of a group including family. I belong to the human race and that is pretty much the sum total of it. Every person is just another person to me and every person is an individual and I deal with them that way although I do have a slight preference toward my children and grand children but not in a large way. They would get preferential treatment over others depending on the situation. I don't have an allegiance to any group. I am an older female human being and that is as far as my labels go.
I am also very alert to any assumptions I may be making and stop them in their tracks.
My family is defined by labels and people are valued based on those labels. Once labeled you carry that label to the grave no matter what you do. The label cannot be changed and the assumptions based on that label remain. This was at play in the conversation and evident in her responses. Exasperation for my ignorance and/or stupidity (again) concerning what could be found on the internet and there is the assumption. Rather than evaluating my answer as to the truth of it she made an assumption based on the label I was assigned by my family. Door to her mind slammed shut. Label confirmed once again.
Probably way more information than you wanted but there it is.

 

[Suzette]

@Martha Ferris,
Your description of your sister and her labels reminds me of my mother. Her interest isn't geneology but wealth.

My mother is very impressed with wealth. If someone she percieves as wealthy pays her attention she will simper and blush and act like a school girl being flirted with. She once said to me "these people don't gave houses they have homes" emphasizing the last word to give it more meaning. I guess the rest of us in our meare houses are homeless? This preoccuparion with wealth translates into some odd ideas about how one should behave and many of her ideas are very Victorian. Being a modern humanist these "quirks" can drive me crazy.
One time at dinner with my mom, my son covered his mouth with a napkin when he had something to say during dinner. My mother asked him why he did it and he explained that he didn't want to offend anyone with un swallowed food. Later my mother ordered me to talk to my son about how covering his mouth that way during dinner "does not set a good impression". My son is an adult and I don't agree with her opinion so I told her no. She did not like that!

My mother has some awesome qualities that I love but I still have to limit the amount of time I spend talking to her. Her preoccupation with weath and apperances are exhausting to me. Sometimes I think she would ask potential friends to submit to a credit report if she could.
She makes it very plain that she will never think as highly of me as she does of others with more money. That used to be very hurtful to me but now I see how mentally and emotionally she is constrained by these ideas.
My world is small because I keep to myself and am retired. Her world is even smaller because she has so many conditions attached to what she finds acceptible.

I think a lot of people are like that. They choose some artifical construct to help them define their world view. Perhaps they lack the intellect to look deeper?

 

[Mis-fit]

I think everyone is like that, not just NTs by any means, but I would almost say that autistic people are worse about it, since inflexibility and rigid thinking patterns are so common with us.

My point was about manners and basic social interaction, though. If I called my friend to tell her that I read a great book about carnivals today, and she said, “I’m not interested in carnivals, so I don’t want to hear what you have to say”…I would be hurt, not because I need validation, but because I wanted to tell her about something that had meaning for me. Or: my mother often talks to me about her garden. I don’t garden, and I’m not very interested in it, but she is, so I listen to her. I don’t tell her I’m not interested in gardens and to please shut up about it.

I agree with you, that we may sometimes be worse about being inflexible with people who don't validate what we are saying. I find it unpleasant, but I don't kick people around or out of my life just because they don't find me interesting, know what I mean? I think that while, yes, we may push someone away, or distance ourselves from them, that is different than scorning them, banishing them from your life, and saying things that make them feel horrible. I am new to the Aspie community, but I haven't met any Aspies like that, though I am sure that there may be some. I am nothing like that. If someone doesn't find me interesting, I leave, don't say anything bad, just leave. I seldom go back to people, if ever, that make me mad intentionally, but if it is unintentional, then I let it slide. But I do think that a greater majority of NT's push Aspies away because we don't communicate on their terms, they shun us, put us down, bully us, etc, then leave us alone. See what I mean?

 

[Au Naturel]

I agree with you, that we may sometimes be worse about being inflexible with people who don't validate what we are saying. I find it unpleasant, but I don't kick people around or out of my life just because they don't find me interesting, know what I mean? I think that while, yes, we may push someone away, or distance ourselves from them, that is different than scorning them, banishing them from your life, and saying things that make them feel horrible. I am new to the Aspie community, but I haven't met any Aspies like that, though I am sure that there may be some. I am nothing like that. If someone doesn't find me interesting, I leave, don't say anything bad, just leave. I seldom go back to people, if ever, that make me mad intentionally, but if it is unintentional, then I let it slide. But I do think that a greater majority of NT's push Aspies away because we don't communicate on their terms, they shun us, put us down, bully us, etc, then leave us alone. See what I mean?

It is just as often that we push them away for the same reason. "I expect you to try to understand me but you can't expect me to do the same for you. My needs are more important."

We just don't "get" that for most people conversation is not about exchanging information. It usually isn't even about the subject matter. It is about interacting socially and the conversation is the chosen means of interaction. Conversation is usually about validating the other person and strengthening social ties and feeling out one's relative place in the world. Autistic people are heavily prone to data dumps or lectures and having to be "right." That doesn't meet an NT's need to socialize.

OTOH, the NT's social techniques are lost on us. I cannot do small talk to save my soul and will not do gossip. Rather than be resentful, I have accepted it as how the world works. So at parties, while my wife chats people up I will recede into the background or go for a walk or play with my smartphone rather than demand that which cannot be given or offer that which I do not have. I don't consider this bad or painful any more. If a conversation does start up with me (unusual) it is usually about a topic of mutual interest and not general banter.

Good conversation enhances your status. It has a lot in common with grooming in apes. Yeah, there is a benefit to removing ticks but the real point of it is to create or reinforce social bonds.

 

[Kalinychta]

But I do think that a greater majority of NT's push Aspies away because we don't communicate on their terms, they shun us, put us down, bully us, etc, then leave us alone. See what I mean?

I reckon so. I don’t think that’s an NT thing, though, per se…I think it’s a human thing. NTs are the majority, so they think we’re strange and divergent, but if someday autistics became the majority and NTs the minority, we would be the ones doing the sneering.

 

[Au Naturel]

I reckon so. I don’t think that’s an NT thing, though, per se…I think it’s a human thing. NTs are the majority, so they think we’re strange and divergent, but if someday autistics became the majority and NTs the minority, we would be the ones doing the sneering.

I think bullying is done by a fairly small number of people. It has an oversized impact on us, so it feels like we are constantly being bullied by everyone. If you are in fear of being bullied, you're always on the lookout for it, always thinking about it. The harder you look for something the more you find it. Sometimes you find things that aren't really there. That's confirmation bias. I have also heard it described as "wearing (fill-in-the-blank) goggles."

The older I get the more I see that my childhood was really short periods of bullying with long periods of not much of anything. I see that things that left me hurt didn't seem to faze the other kids. There was some teasing but I didn't know how to handle it. Other kids did reach out to me (granted not that often) but I was so wrapped up in my own pain, I couldn't accept it. Always found a way to reformat it as something fake. More confirmation bias.

 

[Juliettaa]

No, we don't talk much. Bad history so each interaction is like walking on egg shells.

I wondered at first why, if there's bad history, are you keeping the relationship going? What's in it for you apart from irritation and angst? Then I read that your sister calls you. How would it feel to maybe skip a few calls, cut down on contact, especially when you feel tired/irritable or just simply not in the mood?

It's more about how our brains work. Our brain structures are different. Not only am I on the spectrum but I am a liberal while they are conservative. This has more far reaching effects than just politics. Both my brothers are on the spectrum. One would think that would unite us but it doesn't. My having a brain structure that has been identified with being liberal and their having a brain structure that has been identified with being conservative divides us. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/

I am tired of going along to get along. I have been silent for too long. Masking for too long. Hiding for too long. At 65 can't I finally just be who I am?

@Martha Ferris - I get the feeling that you've been silent for too long, masking and wanting the freedom to be who you really are. You can do it. The permission to do that comes from YOU.

You don't need permission from anyone else.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I have little interest in geneology and especially consider people touting a link to some notable personage to be mere virtue signaling. The consanguinuity of the human race is so high that I consider a geneological lineage to be far too fuzzy to reveal anything substantial unless a hereditary disorder is involved.

 

[Mis-fit]

It is just as often that we push them away for the same reason. "I expect you to try to understand me but you can't expect me to do the same for you. My needs are more important."

We just don't "get" that for most people conversation is not about exchanging information. It usually isn't even about the subject matter. It is about interacting socially and the conversation is the chosen means of interaction. Conversation is usually about validating the other person and strengthening social ties and feeling out one's relative place in the world. Autistic people are heavily prone to data dumps or lectures and having to be "right." That doesn't meet an NT's need to socialize.

OTOH, the NT's social techniques are lost on us. I cannot do small talk to save my soul and will not do gossip. Rather than be resentful, I have accepted it as how the world works. So at parties, while my wife chats people up I will recede into the background or go for a walk or play with my smartphone rather than demand that which cannot be given or offer that which I do not have. I don't consider this bad or painful any more. If a conversation does start up with me (unusual) it is usually about a topic of mutual interest and not general banter.

Good conversation enhances your status. It has a lot in common with grooming in apes. Yeah, there is a benefit to removing ticks but the real point of it is to create or reinforce social bonds.

You are so right, about everything in this post is how I feel. I looked for evidence of other people's attempts to seek validation for the sake of reinforcing social bonds, and I think you hit the nail on the head. They are not talking about the weather because they care about the weather, they are talking about the weather because they can both relate to it, it is something to agree upon, hard to say it is not raining when it is raining, but it is because that is how all animals, people, insects, probably even plants some how relate and communicate to reinforce a life force in us that has an instinct to bond.

With that said, cats don't usually bond with dogs, but sometimes they do. Just like this, there are some common things that NT's and Aspies have in common that we "CAN" bond with, but there "ARE" somethings we can't bond with. With that said, there are some NT's that can't bond with some other NT's. And some Aspies that cannot bond with some other Aspies. So what is it that bonds us? I think it is a combination of experiences from the past and present, personalities, talents, interests, skills, and background. All of these are things we can bond with other people on, it is still not all quite that simple, though that is the gist of it.

With our brains wired differently, I think it is easy to see how having our brain being different could cause some trouble with bonding with other people who's brain is wired differently than ours. Although that is not the only thing we "can" bond on, I think that our logic and our heart are the biggest two things. If someone Loves what we Love, we can form a strong bond. If they think the way we think, that is another area to form a strong bond with. If we think and Love the same way and the same things, boy, wedding bells are ringing. Or a life long friendship. But my point is, that I think I was too hasty to think that NT's and Aspies cannot bond. I recently bonded with an NT, but it is because we both have similar interests, we both care about people and what we do, we are similar in age, and there is some unknown likeness to the both of us I cannot explain, but I can detect. He makes a good friend. I have other people I thought were acquaintances, but I have known them 20 or 30 years, hardly an acquaintance. Now I think they actually are more than acquaintances, they may not be my best friends, but certainly we have a bond formed between us.

Wow, El Natural, you hit the nail on the head with that post, at least with me.

Thank you for your post.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I like the history of things.

Oh, my! Since I was a child I loved Greenfield Village and the Henry Ford Museum. Winter there is as delightful as the Summer. Looking around the Wright Bicycle Shop I saw some of their wind tunnels with the means to measure lift and drag. Whoa! The only thing that meant was compared to the crudities of other flight attempts, and I saw Langley's horror show of a plane, the Wright Brothers were superb Engineers several decades ahead of others chasing heavier than air flight. But we can't forget Charlie Taylor who built the lightest most powerful engines used by the Wrights. Do you remember Connections by James Burke, on PBS?

 

[Suzette]

Oh, my! Since I was a child I loved Greenfield Village and the Henry Ford Museum. Winter there is as delightful as the Summer. Looking around the Wright Bicycle Shop I saw some of their wind tunnels with the means to measure lift and drag. Whoa! The only thing that meant was compared to the crudities of other flight attempts, and I saw Langley's horror show of a plane, the Wright Brothers were superb Engineers several decades ahead of others chasing heavier than air flight. But we can't forget Charlie Taylor who built the lightest most powerful engines used by the Wrights. Do you remember Connections by James Burke, on PBS?

Connections was one of my favorite t.v. progams ever. I was also a fan of In Search of with Leonard Nemoy

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Connections was one of my favorite t.v. progams ever. I was also a fan of In Search of with Leonard Nemoy

I liked that Connections didn't talk down to the audience. Another like that was Omnibus. Listening to the segments led by Leonard Bernstein, I learned much more about music than I thought possible. 50s TV was not a wasteland.

 

[Au Naturel]

You are so right, about everything in this post is how I feel. I looked for evidence of other people's attempts to seek validation for the sake of reinforcing social bonds, and I think you hit the nail on the head. They are not talking about the weather because they care about the weather, they are talking about the weather because they can both relate to it, it is something to agree upon, hard to say it is not raining when it is raining, but it is because that is how all animals, people, insects, probably even plants some how relate and communicate to reinforce a life force in us that has an instinct to bond.

With that said, cats don't usually bond with dogs, but sometimes they do. Just like this, there are some common things that NT's and Aspies have in common that we "CAN" bond with, but there "ARE" somethings we can't bond with. With that said, there are some NT's that can't bond with some other NT's. And some Aspies that cannot bond with some other Aspies. So what is it that bonds us? I think it is a combination of experiences from the past and present, personalities, talents, interests, skills, and background. All of these are things we can bond with other people on, it is still not all quite that simple, though that is the gist of it.

With our brains wired differently, I think it is easy to see how having our brain being different could cause some trouble with bonding with other people who's brain is wired differently than ours. Although that is not the only thing we "can" bond on, I think that our logic and our heart are the biggest two things. If someone Loves what we Love, we can form a strong bond. If they think the way we think, that is another area to form a strong bond with. If we think and Love the same way and the same things, boy, wedding bells are ringing. Or a life long friendship. But my point is, that I think I was too hasty to think that NT's and Aspies cannot bond. I recently bonded with an NT, but it is because we both have similar interests, we both care about people and what we do, we are similar in age, and there is some unknown likeness to the both of us I cannot explain, but I can detect. He makes a good friend. I have other people I thought were acquaintances, but I have known them 20 or 30 years, hardly an acquaintance. Now I think they actually are more than acquaintances, they may not be my best friends, but certainly we have a bond formed between us.

Wow, El Natural, you hit the nail on the head with that post, at least with me.

Thank you for your post.

And then opposites can attract as well. I am strong where my wife is weak. She is strong where I am weak. She is conservative, I am the risk-taker. We moderate each other and it works out. The trick is to realize that differences can reinforce if you let them. Too many only see differences as reasons to divide.

 

[Martha Ferris]

Oh, my! Since I was a child I loved Greenfield Village and the Henry Ford Museum. Winter there is as delightful as the Summer. Looking around the Wright Bicycle Shop I saw some of their wind tunnels with the means to measure lift and drag. Whoa! The only thing that meant was compared to the crudities of other flight attempts, and I saw Langley's horror show of a plane, the Wright Brothers were superb Engineers several decades ahead of others chasing heavier than air flight. But we can't forget Charlie Taylor who built the lightest most powerful engines used by the Wrights. Do you remember Connections by James Burke, on PBS?

No, I don't, but on another tack have you ever heard of the Glen Curtis Museum? It is not far from me in NYS. "Glenn Curtiss made innumerable contributions to early aviation, including: producing and selling the first private airplane, receiving pilot’s license #1, design and construction of the first successful pontoon aircraft in America, invention of dual pilot control, and finally the design of retractable landing gear." Curtiss, Glenn Hammond : National Aviation Hall of Fame
I share your excitement.

 

[Martha Ferris]

It is just as often that we push them away for the same reason. "I expect you to try to understand me but you can't expect me to do the same for you. My needs are more important."

We just don't "get" that for most people conversation is not about exchanging information. It usually isn't even about the subject matter. It is about interacting socially and the conversation is the chosen means of interaction. Conversation is usually about validating the other person and strengthening social ties and feeling out one's relative place in the world. Autistic people are heavily prone to data dumps or lectures and having to be "right." That doesn't meet an NT's need to socialize.

OTOH, the NT's social techniques are lost on us. I cannot do small talk to save my soul and will not do gossip. Rather than be resentful, I have accepted it as how the world works. So at parties, while my wife chats people up I will recede into the background or go for a walk or play with my smartphone rather than demand that which cannot be given or offer that which I do not have. I don't consider this bad or painful any more. If a conversation does start up with me (unusual) it is usually about a topic of mutual interest and not general banter.

Good conversation enhances your status. It has a lot in common with grooming in apes. Yeah, there is a benefit to removing ticks but the real point of it is to create or reinforce social bonds.

I am much more comfortable when conversing in giving information. So hard to do the other. So, so hard. This really spoke to me.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

No, I don't, but on another tack have you ever heard of the Glen Curtis Museum? It is not far from me in NYS. "Glenn Curtiss made innumerable contributions to early aviation, including: producing and selling the first private airplane, receiving pilot’s license #1, design and construction of the first successful pontoon aircraft in America, invention of dual pilot control, and finally the design of retractable landing gear." Curtiss, Glenn Hammond : National Aviation Hall of Fame
I share your excitement.

Ahhhhh . . . Heard of it but never made it there, I remember seeing him mentioned several times in the National Air and Space Museum in DC. I am always thrilled to visit the Smithsonian Museums.

 

[Au Naturel]

No, I don't, but on another tack have you ever heard of the Glen Curtis Museum? It is not far from me in NYS. "Glenn Curtiss made innumerable contributions to early aviation, including: producing and selling the first private airplane, receiving pilot’s license #1, design and construction of the first successful pontoon aircraft in America, invention of dual pilot control, and finally the design of retractable landing gear." Curtiss, Glenn Hammond : National Aviation Hall of Fame
I share your excitement.

Founder of Curtiss-Wright Aviation, IIRC.