Another post about religion/faith beliefs

[autism-and-autotune]

I do not believe in god in the general christian way. But whenever people bring up the 'wrong' god does I ask them the following.
How many times, when you were a child, did you not agree with what your parents did for or to you? How many times were you angry at them for making choices you did not agree with.
And now, many years later and all grown up. How many of those choices and things do you understand now. And would you do the same as your parents. For most people the answer is quite a lot. Your brain was simply not on the same level as that of your parents.

Now image comparing your understanding of everything to something or someone that is capable of concieving EVERYTHING you see and feel around you. How huge of a gap is there between you and this thing or person?
I can at the very least tell you it is far more then the difference between that younger you and your parents.

On the topic of parents and the view of god, I have thought the following many times:

Why would god, a being who is told to have profound love and compassion, create punishment and suffering for his subjects in order to be praised? As someone who grew up with abusive and neglectful parents, I find the concept of an all-powerful and compassionate god whose wrath must be seen in fear to be difficult to contemplate. Certain actions by god are very psychologically questionable; manipulation, for example. In no loving, reciprocated relationship does mental abuse and manipulation count as love. Why would someone or something which claims to love us put us through harmful situations on purpose?

Maybe I'm only biased and jaded because I'm agnostic, and find many contradictions and hypocrisies within the Bible. Maybe my entire point is pointless and useless, for which I apologize.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

I often question the existence of God. It doesn’t seem to make much sense to me that an all knowing and loving higher power would continuously let me suffer while seemingly reward the kids that bullied me and never seem to give them the punishment that they deserve.

This logic is pretty sound, in my opinion. I don't believe in god but I do believe in a higher power, and one that is less personal. For me, I cannot separate that if god made everything but claims to be good, then that must mean evil and bad people were also made by god, but how is that possible if 'god is good'? If he is all-knowing, then would it not be known when we might pray for certain things? Then again, why bother praying if everything--the good and bad--is his will? We've got no say in the matter.

What happened to you is unfair, of course.

 

[The Pandector]

Who was it again who said, "those who don't punish evil, allow them to keep going" or something like that. <it's probably wrong>
I cant remember, I just remembered and think loud. ......I really can't remember.
Was it einstein? ...or someone else... i'm to lazy to look it up right now...

(Just thinking loud. Its not related to the things you guys talk.)

But that brings me to another thought.
Do you guys believe there is a personificated evil, or is doing 'evil' a desicion?

When it's a personification, than how does it look like?

And if you believe its a desicion, can someone who did a lot of evil, turn to decide doing 'good' without people thinking he fakes it?
What should such a human do, so he seems genuine?

(It's about opinions, so please don't start fighting.

John Stewart Mill said something like, ‘all that’s required for evil to triumph in the world is for good men to do nothing.’

My observations coincide with my read of Scripture. People can and do make decisions to be better people, and there are different levels of sincerity and effectiveness. That said, whether a person intends it or not, people in general lean heavily towards sinful behavior. Like a sailboat plying a horrific tide, however you set your sails, your actual course is mostly determined by the water and not the wind.

This is due to the inherently sinful nature of man. The Christian faith is that, while we won’t become perfect here on earth, the person who yields to the Holy Spirit will be freed from slavery to sin, and the Spirit will guide them in redeeming their days, which are inherently evil.

This is at odds with those who feel we are born sinless then ruined by the world. Maybe the question isn’t so much whether we decide to do evil, but whether deciding to do good keeps us from doing evil.

 

[NB79]

I think God should always treat you with love and compassion because He is God even through sufferings and disagreement with your struggles.
Yes He can do things His way but even if He is not acting according to how you would like, He should still love you and care even if you feel He does not.

God is very compassionate with his childs and very patient, i think his grace even accomodates for autistic people from what i lived, even if you sin and fail a lot of times he only cares you follow him, and try to do things the right way, and keep trying, sometimes God is not showing up in our lives because we do not seek him. For something the promises in the bible exists, we need to be born again first, and then it says ask and you shall receive, seek and you will find, so if we cry out to God he will respond even with things nobody saw or heard, its a promise, so we need to seek God every day in prayer etc.

 

[Tyer]

Why would god, a being who is told to have profound love and compassion, create punishment and suffering for his subjects in order to be praised? As someone who grew up with abusive and neglectful parents, I find the concept of an all-powerful and compassionate god whose wrath must be seen in fear to be difficult to contemplate. Certain actions by god are very psychologically questionable; manipulation, for example. In no loving, reciprocated relationship does mental abuse and manipulation count as love. Why would someone or something which claims to love us put us through harmful situations on purpose?

I dont think most people believe that god punishes them to be on "his ego trip".

And the ones going on and on 'whats written in the bible'...

Well...Humans wrote the bible.
Its questionable just because of that fact alone. ^^
Plus, the bible on its own was basically made to manipulate people.
It also has alot of translation errors and some stuff was changed on purpose.
And lets not even start how many version there are.
So...
I think it depends on who reads the bible and what things you take from it.
and...I read some texts that contradicted other earlier parts. Happens because it has all those differnet human-ideas in it.
So I take the bible with a grain of salt. Actually, I see it more at the same level as fairytals. That it has messages to teach you.
But not all those ideas are still usefull or good.

What I mean is, my belief is quit different then what stands in an old guidance book. Or what others claim or belief.

for me it feels kinda like people try disscusing; why the universe created black holes.
....I dont think the universe did that on purpose. the universe has no will or intentions.
Well...maybe it has one, how can I know for 100%. But, im not ready to believe that.

(I hope my statement didnt hurt others. Belief what you want, people.)

(Im not done talking, yet. I drift away for a little, until I come back to the topic.)

That reminds me, there was once an old fanatic lady, who called my family satanic. [She had a bad relationship with her daughter, which felt loved by us, but avoided her mother. So that old lady was jealous. I also think she had an undiagnosed personality disorder. which made it hard for her to connect with her kids. She didnt realize how harmful she was to others. A part of me still wants to help her. Making her realize thats something inside her needs healing. She basically ruined everyones life. But she never listened to me anyway. Everyone left her. I feel bad for her, but im also mad at her for not even trying to reflecting on her behavior once. ...she feels pretty lost.]
Her going crazy calling us satans children and stuff, made me laugh. Because it kinda made me proud and sad. Sad, because she was so desprate. And proud, because she basically titled me as a satan. Not knowing what satan originally WAS or MEANT.
I always liked the idea to test/challenge peoples belief in the world and/or their religious belief. (In harmless ways. By asking them difficult or deep questions. Or finding contradictions in their thinking.)
I dont know why.
Its not out of spite or something. I just feel ...as if I have to do it. Especially when I think they can potentially harm others with their words, way of thinking, or actions. Hard to explain.
...
So, when people call me demonic or child of satan, they basically flatter me. (I'm odd.)
Just because Im different and reject things I dont want to respect.

but the things I actually wanted to say is;

In older concepts god was neither good nor evil.
But let me ask something; if you want 'good', you cant know it, if theres was never 'bad'.

Maybe it sooths your pain, when you know, that you probably can feel and apprecciate the 'good' way harder, because you suffered so much.
other people who havent suffered, are kinda ...ignorant to their life and those of others. (If they arent extremly empathic.)
Its pretty sad and pathetic, if one cant feel the pleasure of "good" things, out of ignorance.
(those with mental or physical stuff, that hinders them to feel the pleasure, arent ignorant. Those are currently suffering too. Unless its not somthing in their brain, but something in their behavior which they learned/evolved. [not realizing that they need help or healing])

you can probably feel the pain of others pretty good, so the pain you suffered and still suffer from, made you better.
Unless you decide to not make it into an adventage.

If it has meaning or not is always up to oneself.
One can feel betrayed all life long. One can hate as much as they want to. Nobody can stop that. Nor does it need to be a weakness.
It just would be a waste of pain, if one is just mad about it instead of using what was forced onto them anyway.
(I dont know if you already do that [using it as an adventage]. I guess you do.)
If it doesnt kill you, it can make you stronger.



(BUT People, this is not meant to be an excuse to go out being harmfull to others "just to make them stronger". Everyone be nice. Help others, if you can. Be kind. Unless they dont deserve it right now.
More important, protect yourself.)

 

[The Pandector]

Lots of mention of God being manipulative, and of this being inconsistent with love. I understand the human struggle to feel independent, and how an overwhelming force contradicting one's own free will is nearly intolerable.

As a parent, I never ceased to train up my children in the way they should go. This was not written on a blank slate; those units came equipped with wills of their own. Even still, as adults they resent the pressure they were under. Tough feces. They are both successful and well paid; though not Christians, both have keen senses of right and wrong and the strength of their convictions. The one with a family is a dedicated and beloved family man, and the other is literally a world adventurer, diving the Red Sea even as I type. And, the two are tighter than nuns' buns. It wasn't easy, as an undiagnosed autist. It was a protracted labor of love, and any lingering resentment on their part is a price worth paying, knowing what I'm leaving behind. My, how I love my sons.

I can't imagine a parent loving their children and failing to manipulate them. An untended child is a literal crime, but an unguided child is an unloved child. Something close to every parent in the world understands this. Who doesn't understand it? Children who haven't had their own children, not yet understanding that the untamed human will is a walking disaster.

God is infinitely better at parenting than are humans. Kids learn the elementary wisdom of trusting their parents, then at some point decide they're calling their own shots. However, it's different with God because we never reach a point in this life where we aren't still in our childhood. The faithful and mature child of God learns to conform their own will to the will of their spiritual father, actually wanting God's will. You learn that, often, subverting your own will is the best thing that can happen to you. Then you begin to have some perspective on how God's love and God's discipline come from precisely the same place.

 

[Kavigant]

To date, I've read three Bible versions (that alone puts me off - there should be just one?), the Torah, Talmud, Book of Zoroaster, Four Noble Truths, Egyptian and Tibetan Book of the Dead and I try to keep up with revised translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls. They all tell the same stories. They parallel each other immensely. They have practically the same contradictions in them, as well. They all truly come across as fairy tale parables, recounting history and yet, certainly examples of "history as written by the victors."

I'm surprised to meet a non-Jew who has read (and understood!) the entirety of both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. Thousands and thousands of pages so dense and full of the highest level of theological argumentation taking place over the course of almost two thousand years between the greatest theological minds that Judaism has ever produced that I have not yet time to do more than just dip my pinky toe into these massive, massive works of Hebrew and Aramaic.

If you don't mind my asking, what "stories" does the Talmud tell that the Book of Going Forth by Day also tells?

 

[The Pandector]

Why would someone or something which claims to love us put us through harmful situations on purpose?

My personal observation is that people, in general, are pretty messed up, and that is also what I see presented in the Bible. If we were perfect, we wouldn't need correcting, but we're not perfect. God answers your question clearly, though you might not like the answer.

God compares the evil in us to dross, the impurities that separate from precious metals that are being refined. What you refer to as 'harmful situations', God explains at the 'refiner's fire.'

Of course, humans are innately proud and independent creatures, self-willed in the extreme. Any teacher among us will recognize that I'm not describing a good student. When faced with discipline (note that I did NOT say 'punishment') we tend towards rebellion. God understands our fallen nature and loves us through it, continuing to train up his children as the loving father he is.

 

[Tyer]

I'm surprised to meet a non-Jew who has read (and understood!) the entirety of both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. Thousands and thousands of pages so dense and full of the highest level of theological argumentation taking place over the course of almost two thousand years between the greatest theological minds that Judaism has ever produced that I have not yet time to do more than just dip my pinky toe into these massive, massive works of Hebrew and Aramaic.

If you don't mind my asking, what "stories" does the Talmud tell that the Book of Going Forth by Day also tells?

Are we trying to diss each other now?

Shouldnt we be better than harmful cults? and not try to force other humans to have the same belief as oneself? Just because its different...
Dont we already know how being shoved away for being "different" hurts? And what did we wrong to get rejected? What did those other beliefs wrong or ideas? Just because it talking and thinking a little bit different than those around the "average". "Avarage" is not more "rightful" or "better" than the "odd".


As long as those individual beliefs dont harm others, I see no reason why we have to challenge them.

One can read stuff and understand things different, or see connections.
And eho are we to judge other if they understood something than can mean so much?
we dont talk about math or phsidics. We talk about very fluent hard to grasp concepts, which are thightly linked to individual expiriences, knowledge and ideas.

We should know that.

....and nobody should feel like they have to justify what they think or believe in.
So there is also no reason to feel personaly attacked. (Trying to make others feel as if they did or said something wrong. Just for trying to express what is hardly expressable.)

(If it wasnt a sassy reply, then im very sorry for misunderstanding it. It sounded pretty sassy to me. And I couldnt let that sit around.)

 

[Kavigant]

We do not prove that we are better than any religious groups by calling them "harmful cults" or by making potentially untrue statements about our level of familiarity with their texts in order to make us seem more knowledgeable about their beliefs.

I have demanded precisely no one to believe as I do. Nor have I asked anyone to justify their beliefs. It would help me if you could show me where I "shoved away" or "rejected" anyone.

I would hope that as we express our supposed superiority to those benighted religious believers, we could do so without hyperbole or falsehood. Otherwise, we are no better.

 

[Tyer]

We do not prove that we are better than any religious groups by calling them "harmful cults" or by making potentially untrue statements about our level of familiarity with their texts in order to make us seem more knowledgeable about their beliefs.

I have demanded precisely no one to believe as I do. Nor have I asked anyone to justify their beliefs. It would help me if you could show me where I "shoved away" or "rejected" anyone.

I would hope that as we express our supposed superiority to those benighted religious believers, we could do so without hyperbole or falsehood. Otherwise, we are no better.

It seems I have failed to express what I tried to say.
-If you are challenging their belief, because it wasnt what you expect us to do snd be.-
And it also seems that I could have misunderstood your intentions.

If you don't mind my asking, what "stories" does the Talmud tell that the Book of Going Forth by Day also tells?

I never intended to say that you specifically did those things.

My rambling:
(yes, I judge those who are harmful.
<Im not saying that you are harmful! im just talking about myself!>
Religion should never be a reason to mistreat others. And I dont care what they think, than in my eyes, when others get hurt, then its not a religious thing anymore. Maybe this makes me not better than those. But thats fine by me. I dont tolerate what I cant respect.)

But still, I seemed to have attacked you, saying stuff that you took personally.

I apologize, Franx.

I was so in my mind and thoughts that I maybe couldnt focus on the things you really tried to say.
Can you forgive me?

 

[Kavigant]

But still, I seemed to have attacked you, saying stuff that you took personally.

I apologize, Franx.

I was so in my mind and thoughts that I maybe couldnt focus on the things you really tried to say.
Can you forgive me?

Thank you for your words, Tyer. I don't think that you did anything that requires forgiveness and I'm not angry. But thank you for your kind words.

My wife also pointed out to me that I was more prickly than usual yesterday, so it's possibly that I took things too personally.

The points I made (not about you) still remain. Perhaps I should have ignored the comments from another that I responded to, but it frustrates me so much to see. Perhaps it's just my "autistic sense of justice" acting up.

In any case, thank you again for clarifying and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless us all. R'Amen!

 

[Dagan]

I did not read the "full" Talmud, the Mishna, if that's what you wanted to get at me about. I knew that would be intense and along the lines of choosing to read all of the Dune books and not melting my brain. I also read an English translation, so there's that. I'm sure something is lost somehow in that alone. If you meant the Four Noble Truths comparison, then you have only to know the four of them, essentially that: Life is full of moments of suffering and struggle - we will mostly want to choose desires and pleasures to ease the suffering and struggle - we can choose to turn away from the struggles and suffering - only this is the path that will lead to enlightenment. To not write a whole book in this comment, I give you - https://citycongregation.org/bnei-mitzvah/american-jews-and-buddhism/

And, just in the other simplest examples, the Laws of Noah very much compare to the Buddhist precepts. Etc. etc. etc.

If there's ever anything I really only want to promote when it comes to religious texts, it's simply two things: Read the entire text you claim to live 100% according to......and......there's many other books, so read more than that one.