an eye contact contract?

[wadorama]

your view of the battlefield intrigues me steam. we all put on the wool coat when we must and with varying degrees of effect, and there is always fear of the wolves. but us as lions? that implies an advantage that i do not yet see from in here. as aspies we have a unique perspective, but useable to our advantage? how?

 

[Full Steam]

your view of the battlefield intrigues me steam. we all put on the wool coat when we must and with varying degrees of effect, and there is always fear of the wolves. but us as lions? that implies an advantage that i do not yet see from in here. as aspies we have a unique perspective, but useable to our advantage? how?

Well the ultimate truth is there are no sheep, just lots of lions eating grass and going "beh".

I like this story, and while it's not about autism, it often comes to mind.

"THE LION WHO THOUGHT HE WAS A SHEEP
There was a lion that grew up in a flock of sheep and so he had no consciousness that he was a lion. He didn’t know he was a lion. He would bleat like a sheep, he’d eat grass like a sheep. One day they were wandering at the edge of a big jungle when a mighty lion let out a big roar and leapt out of the forest and right into the middle of the flock. All the sheep scattered and ran away. Imagine the surprise of the jungle lion when he saw this other lion there among the sheep. So, he gave chase. He got hold of him. And there was this lion, cringing in front of the king of the jungle. And the jungle lion said to him, “What are you doing here?”

And the other lion said, “Have mercy on me. Don’t eat me. Have mercy on me.” But the king of the forest dragged him away saying “Come on with me.” And he took him to a lake and he said, “Look.” So, the lion who thought he was a sheep looked and for the first time, he saw his reflection. He saw his image. Then he looked at the jungle lion, and he looked in the water again, and he let out a mighty roar. He was never a sheep again. It took only one minute."


By Anthony Di Mello

THE LION WHO THOUGHT HE WAS A SHEEP

 

[Fitzo]

Yes - i think they are still quite easy to spot though - look for smiles that are too warm, and excessive, practiced smoothness.

I think regular liars and 'salesmen' are relatively easy to spot, but unfortunately the dangerous ones are not. If they were they wouldn't get away with as much as they do. I have been unlucky enough to have first hand experience and I believe they could pass a lie detector test with flying colours.
However although this does devalue the accuracy of eye contact as a guide to truth, these people make up a small percentage of the population. I think most people struggle to look you in the eye and lie without a 'tell' of some sort.

 

[wadorama]

so the moral of that story is that we are what we were born to be, and not what we disguised ourselves as out of need and/or lack of awareness of our true nature.

still my question remains...when exchanging those thoughts, did those lions look each other in the eyes?

 

[wadorama]

I think regular liars and 'salesmen' are relatively easy to spot, but unfortunately the dangerous ones are not. If they were they wouldn't get away with as much as they do. I have been unlucky enough to have first hand experience and I believe they could pass a lie detector test with flying colours.
However although this does devalue the accuracy of eye contact as a guide to truth, these people make up a small percentage of the population. I think most people struggle to look you in the eye and lie without a 'tell' of some sort.

hence the value then. perceived honesty that most can't fake. some can, but they are the minority.

 

[Full Steam]

I think regular liars and 'salesmen' are relatively easy to spot, but unfortunately the dangerous ones are not. If they were they wouldn't get away with as much as they do. I have been unlucky enough to have first hand experience and I believe they could pass a lie detector test with flying colours.
However although this does devalue the accuracy of eye contact as a guide to truth, these people make up a small percentage of the population. I think most people struggle to look you in the eye and lie without a 'tell' of some sort.

I wonder if those dangerous one were ND?

Every liar I remember being exposed was already not 100% trusted by me.

I have never been exposed during a lie, and I can easily stare into people's eyes and lie. I learned how to due to having personal habits that were not legal - a long time ago. That forced me to lie to protect myself, and I found I was very good at it and it was very easy.

I never liked doing it though, and it was only ever done in self protection.

An Aspe that learned to lie and was unhinged could be dangerous.

 

[wadorama]

I wonder if those dangerous one were ND?

Every liar I remember being exposed was already not 100% trusted by me.

I have never been exposed during a lie, and I can easily stare into people's eyes and lie. I learned how to due to having personal habits that were not legal - a long time ago. That forced me to lie to protect myself, and I found I was very good at it and it was very easy.

I never liked doing it though, and it was only ever done in self protection.

An Aspe that learned to lie and was unhinged could be dangerous.

could be? i would contend has been, and historically. my admittedly noob take is that it might hone a singular focus well-suited to such pursuits.

 

[Fitzo]

I wonder if those dangerous one were ND?

Every liar I remember being exposed was already not 100% trusted by me.

I have never been exposed during a lie, and I can easily stare into people's eyes and lie. I learned how to due to having personal habits that were not legal - a long time ago. That forced me to lie to protect myself, and I found I was very good at it and it was very easy.

I never liked doing it though, and it was only ever done in self protection.

An Aspe that learned to lie and was unhinged could be dangerous.

It's possible the ones I've met were ND, but I think it's unlikely as one of the 'tools' in their arsenal was an ancanny ability to 'read' other people. Wouldn't that be unlikely for an Aspie?

On the other hand.....are you sure you are Aspie?

 

[Full Steam]

It's possible the ones I've met were ND, but I think it's unlikely as one of the 'tools' in their arsenal was an ancanny ability to 'read' other people. Wouldn't that be unlikely for an Aspie?

On the other hand.....are you sure you are Aspie?

I'm officially diagnosed - pretty classic in most cases.

I also do sales for our business which requires building rapport which I've learnt to do.

I'm very empathic, and I pick up on people's feelings very quickly, but not the unspoken meanings. I guess that could be weaponised by an unhealthy persona.

 

[Progster]

My experience with eye contact is that if you don't give it, the other person assumes (wrongly) that you aren't listening to them, so it's best to give it.

 

[Mary Anne]

It seems “off” to someone expecting eye contact to not get it. It feels like they are being ignored, socially erased. It comes off as rude and dismissive.

I think many of us avoid it because it often kindles deep feelings in us, while for NTs it is just a social signal.

What kind of “deep feelings? I just want to understand.

 

[Mary Anne]

There is the flock - NTs as a whole.
There are the wolves who have learnt the ways of the flock to prey on them.
There are the lions who think they are sheep - us.

The flock need their rules to maintain cohesion and order.
They need to try to learn to watch for wolves in sheeps clothing.
We need to realise we are not sheep, but to make the sheep feel comfortable we may choose to act like sheep. We should not fear the wolves as they do not understand us, and we should be able to spot that they do not act exactly like sheep. Their spells are not made for us.

Do you really think this way?!? That sounds so sad, and scary.

 

[Full Steam]

Do you really think this way?!? That sounds so sad, and scary.

Kind of, but its just an analogy.

Don't take it too seriously.

The world's a mostly positive place if you stay positive yourself.

 

[Tom]

From your title I thought you were asking if you should have a replacement contract for your contacts. Anyway I follow 'an eye contact for an eye contact'.

 

[tlc]

There are times when direct eye contact is unwelcomed. Certain cultures outside the Western world do not engage in eye contact. Also, gang members and prison inmates can see eye contact as a threat and provocation to fight. You most likely do not come into contact with either, so eye contact is necessary in our Western society.

Maybe the above has something to do with it, as most of my childhood was spent evading bullies of all ages, rather than having constructive conversations with anyone. Or being accused of staring when I did talk to people and make eye contact. Even when talking with my best friend, we would most likely be hanging out in the house, both looking at the ceiling or anything but each other, no eye contact. He had no AS traits. I know people aren't animals, but I was always told don't look a dog in the eye unless you want to be attacked.

So I know the theoretical rule, and I think about it and try to at work, but it just feels intimidating and wrong. Thankfully these people have known me for 20 years. If I look at anyone else in the eye while theyre talking to me for more than a split second, it makes me wonder if I'm going to get hauled away later for harrassment, shot, stabbed, etc. Crazy world out there.

 

[WereBear]

What kind of “deep feelings? I just want to understand.

Ever noticed how a driver and a passenger in a car can have these amazing conversations? Because one of them has to watch the road, they both face forward and don't do eye contact. Eye contact is a moment of vulnerability. It is easier to have awkward and emotional conversations with it restricted in this way; in a way that feels "natural" and not being SHUNNED.

There's another aspect to it, which is how people tend to get into arguments in cars. They feel ignored, and escalate, and before you know it, someone is threatening to walk home.

I have eye contact with dogs and cats and people, and all of them are "sending emotion" with it, because I notice little things and have learned what faces are "saying." I don't know what an NT feels, but it is similar, because by looking away, they get a bit of privacy, and by looking me in the eyes, they are sending a trust signal.

Many Aspies, especially as children, have trouble with eye contact because they are reacting a lot more than NTs do, and deal with a flood of emotion, instead of the little "friendly" vibes most of them seem to get from eye contact.

 

[wadorama]

From your title I thought you were asking if you should have a replacement contract for your contacts. Anyway I follow 'an eye contact for an eye contact'.

sorry for the unintentional mislead Tom. but even such as i would likely resist creating a thread such as that. ;o) thing about e4e is that you have to make first contact to even tell, and then the deed is done.

 

[Progster]

Eye contact feels like opposite poles of a magnet trying to meet.

 

[WereBear]

Eye contact feels like opposite poles of a magnet trying to meet.

I'd say that's very common, and we don't know what causes that for those of us on the Spectrum. Is it because social stuff taught and expressed in ways we find difficult, and NO ONE helps us with that? Was I at an advantage in that my family lived in very remote places and I was able to sit in my room and read and play by myself and come to this at my own speed? My friendships were usually one on one, with someone who didn't mind that I was "weird" because they usually were too.

Is it easier for us to socialize with other people like us? Do people get that chance now, and benefit as a result?

 

[Progster]

My friendships were usually one on one, with someone who didn't mind that I was "weird" because they usually were too.

Is it easier for us to socialize with other people like us? Do people get that chance now, and benefit as a result?

Same here. I didn't have many close friendships, the ones I did have were mainly those who, for one reason or another, were on the margins. It's easier to socialise with people who are more like ourselves, who we share a common interest with. It's easier to make friends with a person who is on their own and doesn't already belong to a friendship group or social circle.