Addressing double standards in dating/love/sex

[thejuice]

If you want to be very cold about it, women are way more valuable than men in a reproductive sense. In theory you could, in an extreme case, only need one man to be a sperm donor to all fertile women who do the heavy lifting reproductively. Like the bull used for breeding in cattle.

Supply and demand really means that it is all about women's needs in the dating world. It's not 'fair' but it's best not to be at war with reality and adapt instead.

 

[Cryptid]

The only standards I set for the kind of woman who would be my second wife were that she would be nothing like my first. That is, she would be intelligent, educated, moral, and ethical; and she would like me for myself -- not for my money, property, social status, or whom my friends might be. It took a while, but those standards were finally met.

The fact that she is also incredibly good-looking is "icing on the cake"!

 

[BewilderedPerson]

This is gonna be hard but please try not to let the inner critic attach a narrative to the pain your feeling with this girl. She's just one girl and who knows the what's and whys.

Two weeks ago, I was on top of the world, and now?

I miss her.

 

[Hypnalis]

@thejuice

That's correct in 2024 (and has been for decades). But we're not evolved for that, and modern M/F mating processes are strongly influenced by evolved behaviors.

The short version:

Humans brains are much too big for our frames. Human babies are born helpless, and much less mature than other mammals. Unlike the others, we develop outside the womb during the first two years of life.
This is the reason for human pair-bonding (unusual in mammals, unique among apes). The bonding process is needed so there's a second involved party (the father) to keep the mother alive while the children are completely helpless.
It's also why humans don't have "Alpha males". People who claim to be Alphas tend to be natural "cannon fodder" rather than natural leaders /lol.

The payoff off all this inconvenience is intelligence, which has worked out reasonably well during the relatively brief "experimental period".

A word of warning though. This is an interestingly contentious topic in some circles

 

[Cryptid]

Many times, I have been the stepping-stone in someone else's quest for the perfect mate. It sucked, but I persevered and found someone who hates "mind games" as much as I do.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

If you want to be very cold about it, women are way more valuable than men in a reproductive sense. In theory you could, in an extreme case, only need one man to be a sperm donor to all fertile women who do the heavy lifting reproductively. Like the bull used for breeding in cattle.

Supply and demand really means that it is all about women's needs in the dating world. It's not 'fair' but it's best not to be at war with reality and adapt instead.

I’m just saying, I’ve got my needs, too.

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

There are few things I hate more in this world than double standards and hypocrisy, no matter what of life it is.

It seems to me they are especially prevalent when it comes to dating, and I’d like to share some examples.

The first example - as supportive as this forum is of me, my sincere gratitude, I’ve noticed people post on here, even ask me directly, what I can offer a woman, a woman has her goals, her dreams.

Okay, what about my goals and my dreams? What can a partner do for me? How many women have even considered doing something for me? It hasn’t been many.

And I’m not talking about giving me something of monetary value. The only thing I want from a woman is her.

Another one I see a lot, saying women aren’t objects, they much discourage use of language perceived as objectifying women.

That’s all great until I know women objectify men, that they size them up within seconds of meeting them if they’ll ever sleep with them or not.

You don’t want to be objectified? You want men to see you as people? That’s cool, just don’t objectify us or doom us within of even meeting us, without even knowing what kind of person we even are.

If we value looks into a partner, men are shallow, but women are just going for ‘attractiveness.’

To help give me some more fulfillment, I’m wanting to donate to a sperm bank and father a child, and hopefully have some kind of relationship with said child at some point in my life.

I saw a YouTube commenter lashing out accusing a donor of entitlement and the mother gets to decide which sperm to use for good genetics.

But the mother is entitled to good genetics for the child, then? Is that right?

I’d just thought I’d point some of this out, because I’m ready to love someone, give my heart to her and for her to take advantage of whatever good qualities I might have - but very few do and not for long.

And it doesn’t help having to wade through all of this while being on the spectrum and double standards existing in the world of dating.

I sometimes give up on good people
Because I know too and have seem women be shallow with men and not even think their husbands attractive unless he is some Brad Pitt.
I mean I have heard women online use language that implies they do not think their husbands are attractive
And then they do not love themselves.
I mean I do not know these people but I do think that some women value physical appearance in a man more than a loving heart.
I do not care who validates them, I just speak whst I see.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

I sometimes give up on good people
Because I know too and have seem women be shallow with men and not even think their husbands attractive unless he is some Brad Pitt.
I mean I have heard women online use language that implies they do not think their husbands are attractive
And then they do not love themselves.
I mean I do not know these people but I do think that some women value physical appearance in a man more than a loving heart.
I do not care who validates them, I just speak whst I see.

You know, I haven’t exactly dated swimsuit models, but I somehow have been attracted to different kinds of women and have even developed feelings for the person, too.

I don’t know, that sounds like objectification to me. And those who engage in it, can’t rightfully complain if they’re on the receiving end of it.

And yet, those women somehow married their husbands.

They don’t love themselves if he isn’t attractive? I think I’ve got more sympathy for the man in that situation.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

I've skim read a couple books on flirting and have learned to look for so called 'green lights' of interest in body language and eye contact from women. Using peripheral vision to scan the room.

It's useful but my next challenge is to muster up the courage to go over and talk. Sometimes I feel like verbal English is a second language, I write okay though.

A handful of nasty experiences dent your confidence, but green lights should in theory stack the cards In your favour of talking to an interested and open woman. Like you said the woman with her phone out and no eye contact is a non starter. It helps to have an excuse planned for getting out if the situation bombs. "I'm meeting a friend, nice to meet you" or something..

People tend to like smiley, happy people. I try to go against my nature and be like that. Fake it till you make it you know?

I’m okay with smiling, being upbeat, etc. Being this big extrovert where I ooze smiles all the times or an always so happy, that’d be me pretending to be something I’m not.

Since I have a job where I have a lot of people know who I am, people will often call out to me when I do what I do. I’m more of the kind of person to have a nice, slight smile and be like, ‘Hey, how’s it going? Good to see you.’

I’m not the type to perk up at everyone and everything and be so excited to see them like I’m everyone’s best friend.

 

[Shevek]

I've skim read a couple books on flirting and have learned to look for so called 'green lights' of interest in body language and eye contact from women. Using peripheral vision to scan the room.

It's useful but my next challenge is to muster up the courage to go over and talk. Sometimes I feel like verbal English is a second language, I write okay though.

A handful of nasty experiences dent your confidence, but green lights should in theory stack the cards In your favour of talking to an interested and open woman. Like you said the woman with her phone out and no eye contact is a non starter. It helps to have an excuse planned for getting out if the situation bombs. "I'm meeting a friend, nice to meet you" or something..

People tend to like smiley, happy people. I try to go against my nature and be like that. Fake it till you make it you know?

Biology proceeds through a long series of molecular locks and keys. Nutrients in circulation just keep bouncing along until they find the right receptor to lock in with. It is somewhat similar with men looking for love. We ask, and they decide which of us have the best genes. They complain of the constant attention, but women still out-spend men on clothes and makeup. They like to know they have options.
Humans take longer to mature than many species even live. Historically, it has been almost impossible for a single mother to raise kids. They have a much better chance with two parents sharing nurture and support duties. However, there are times when a woman, celebrated in Harlequins, feels overcome by attraction to a man who has great genes for the community, but not for parenting. He might be a soldier heading out to die defending his tribe, or a wandering trader. If she finds herself pregnant after such a fling, Ma Nature makes sure that she can bed one who is less attractive, but a better provider, and secure support for her baby. That's why, in almost all cultures, ten percent of children are misinformed about their bio-fathers. Any higher, and we would be too suspicious. Any lower, and we'd lose on inbreeding and isolation.
Men having to ask, and women having to respond politely is inconvenient, but so are eating and sleeping. It just comes with our programming. That said, I really can't recall how I wound up in affairs. I didn't do much asking; we just started finding more reasons to spend time together. I think I was considered a challenge, but I was also a good listener. I'd advise ignoring the long-term goal of having children, and focus on getting comfortable just talking with and being around women.

 

[marc_101]

@BewilderedPerson

There are a lot of stereotypes and generalizations that make your post hard to answer, but I think that I can see what you mean.

Perhaps the main issue is that you are not accepting one of the most basic realities about the way humans mate: there are still differences based on sex. Men tend to chase women; women tend to be the ones selecting men among potential suitors. I say "tend" because this happens on average. Many times women pursue men, but in general it is men who pursue women.

Ask any good looking woman how many times a day or a week she has to ignore men's approaches and try to decide if their coworker, professor, doctor, classmate, and so on is being nice to them because they are nice or because they want to have sex and then move on. And they worry about it because it has happened several times before. Women are also concerned about their physical safety for very good reasons.

I'm not sure if double standard is the best way to describe it. I think the issue is that we all --men, woman, non-binary, trans, etc-- want to be with the "best" partner possible, and on average we agree on what is best: nice, attractive, protective, funny, and so on... You may call that objectifying but that's just the way things are: until you know a person well, you can only judge them by external features.

The part that I think is happening a lot is that dating apps have made this reality be on steroids. You can only judge a person in a dating app by external cues: looks, height, ability to write a description of themselves, hobbies, profession... So the initial selection is based on things that have nothing to do with other qualities that are highly valued: voice, smell, attitude, personality, conversation ability, laughter, kindness, and so on.

If you want to find a mate, you need to be your best version. If you are a man and look like a movie star, a dating app will be awesome. If you are like an average man, then you have to compete with many man sending a million messages to the cute women.

If the above bugs you, then you need to join clubs and do social activities so women can judge you less based on external cues. But still you have to be the best you can because we're all looking for the best.

And then there is the issue that the rules are different if you're looking for sex or a long-term relationship...

Summary: We're still animals with a brain we use to try to disguise the fact that we are animals.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

There are few things I hate more in this world than double standards and hypocrisy, no matter what of life it is.

I’ve noticed people post on here, even ask me directly, what I can offer a woman, a woman has her goals, her dreams.

Okay, what about my goals and my dreams? What can a partner do for me? How many women have even considered doing something for me? It hasn’t been many.

And I’m not talking about giving me something of monetary value. The only thing I want from a woman is her.

Another one I see a lot, saying women aren’t objects, they much discourage use of language perceived as objectifying women.

That’s all great until I know women objectify men, that they size them up within seconds of meeting them if they’ll ever sleep with them or not.

You don’t want to be objectified? You want men to see you as people? That’s cool, just don’t objectify us or doom us within of even meeting us, without even knowing what kind of person we even are.

If we value looks into a partner, men are shallow, but women are just going for ‘attractiveness.’

We are well into this discussion by now, but a few topics you mention here. For context, I am Gen X and two, I've been with the same woman for about 40 years and raised two boys, so I do know something about traditional gender roles and two, something about a good relationship.

1. A relationship should have balance. If the relationship is unfair or unbalanced, there's going to be problems. You mentioned goals and dreams. Others mentioned special interests and hobbies. Who is the social planner, and so on. All I can say is that this must be a two-way street. You have to communicate well. Nobody is "entitled" to anything just because of their gender. It's still OK, if agreed, that you each have your roles. My wife does the bills, I do the investments. I do the vehicles, home maintenance, she does most of the housework (I do some). You have to advocate for yourself and respectfully point these things out when it becomes unbalanced. In other words, don't let things eat at you for a while, then have a "blow-up" argument. Slip it in jokingly into a side comment and move on. Little "tit for tat" comments that let one or the other know, "I am aware" and perhaps "It is not acceptable".

2. Men and women are NOT equal in the physical sense. Your average, everyday, typical male and female are strikingly different in terms of what their bodies are capable of. With that comes some responsibility and restraint upon the male, which not only means physical restraint, but emotional restraint. A male must learn to walk away when the argument becomes heated. I know I can playfully toss my wife around like a little rag doll and I shudder to think what I could do to her if I became enraged. Restraint and responsibility. An emotionally-triggered female may be putting her life in danger, quite literally, if she isn't respecting these differences. There is a double-standard here that must be respected.

3. We might not like it, but men and women absolutely objectify and size each other up. It's quite literally the very first thing that might stimulate enough interest for two people to meet for the first time. That's biological, and definitely not some social construct. All animals and birds do this. I know my wife likes big, lean, muscular bodies on men. It's no secret in the actors she likes to see. I know my wife loves a man in a well-tailored suit and holds himself well in a crowd of people. I know my wife and I both look at attractive people. Jokingly, at our age, it's a sign we aren't dead yet. "Why don't people get to know me first, then decide if they like me?" That's all fine and dandy if the other person is NOT looking for a life-partner, but a friend or co-worker, or at the very least, someone is going to be in the "friend zone" for a while before the other person might consider them for a life-partner. However, if there is a strong, physical attraction, then things can progress quite quickly.

4. I know this is a bit of a sore topic for many people, not just autistics. In the past 10 years, the statistics for male and female virginity have increased significantly for people under 25. This, I believe, is a social construct, not biological. An increasing number of females are not being married and having children until after the age of 30, but this has been slowly increasing for the past 30-40 years. *Note: A "geriatric female" within the context of obstetrics is anyone over 35. The statistical risks of having all sorts of genetic disorders, including autism, as well as the incidence of premature birth, rises dramatically over the age of 32. As someone who has been in neonatal medicine for nearly 40 years, our admissions have increased year after year. When I started, we had a 40-bed unit. Now, it's 120-bed unit and we are full. I have been immersed in this phenomenon. Obviously, we can come up with quite a long list of reasons for all of these socio-economic changes, but make no mistake, human beings are still physically at their sexual peaks in their 20's, not only from a "drive" perspective, but from an ability to procreate and carry a healthy baby to term gestation.

 

[Mary Terry]

@thejuice

That's correct in 2024 (and has been for decades). But we're not evolved for that, and modern M/F mating processes are strongly influenced by evolved behaviors.

The short version:

Humans brains are much too big for our frames. Human babies are born helpless, and much less mature than other mammals. Unlike the others, we develop outside the womb during the first two years of life.
This is the reason for human pair-bonding (unusual in mammals, unique among apes). The bonding process is needed so there's a second involved party (the father) to keep the mother alive while the children are completely helpless.
It's also why humans don't have "Alpha males". People who claim to be Alphas tend to be natural "cannon fodder" rather than natural leaders /lol.

The payoff off all this inconvenience is intelligence, which has worked out reasonably well during the relatively brief "experimental period".

A word of warning though. This is an interestingly contentious topic in some circles

Very true. Pregnant women cannot run from saber tooth tigers, either. Bonding has always been important to continuation of the human race.

 

[thejuice]

Biology proceeds through a long series of molecular locks and keys. Nutrients in circulation just keep bouncing along until they find the right receptor to lock in with. It is somewhat similar with men looking for love. We ask, and they decide which of us have the best genes. They complain of the constant attention, but women still out-spend men on clothes and makeup. They like to know they have options.
Humans take longer to mature than many species even live. Historically, it has been almost impossible for a single mother to raise kids. They have a much better chance with two parents sharing nurture and support duties. However, there are times when a woman, celebrated in Harlequins, feels overcome by attraction to a man who has great genes for the community, but not for parenting. He might be a soldier heading out to die defending his tribe, or a wandering trader. If she finds herself pregnant after such a fling, Ma Nature makes sure that she can bed one who is less attractive, but a better provider, and secure support for her baby. That's why, in almost all cultures, ten percent of children are misinformed about their bio-fathers. Any higher, and we would be too suspicious. Any lower, and we'd lose on inbreeding and isolation.
Men having to ask, and women having to respond politely is inconvenient, but so are eating and sleeping. It just comes with our programming. That said, I really can't recall how I wound up in affairs. I didn't do much asking; we just started finding more reasons to spend time together. I think I was considered a challenge, but I was also a good listener. I'd advise ignoring the long-term goal of having children, and focus on getting comfortable just talking with and being around women.

I have read that figure too in a bird species, I can't remember which one though. In regards to humans I wonder if the 10% includes the number of willing step fathers. With the divorce rate I suspect not.

 

[Mary Terry]

We are well into this discussion by now, but a few topics you mention here. For context, I am Gen X and two, I've been with the same woman for about 40 years and raised two boys, so I do know something about traditional gender roles and two, something about a good relationship.

1. A relationship should have balance. If the relationship is unfair or unbalanced, there's going to be problems. You mentioned goals and dreams. Others mentioned special interests and hobbies. Who is the social planner, and so on. All I can say is that this must be a two-way street. You have to communicate well. Nobody is "entitled" to anything just because of their gender. It's still OK, if agreed, that you each have your roles. My wife does the bills, I do the investments. I do the vehicles, home maintenance, she does most of the housework (I do some). You have to advocate for yourself and respectfully point these things out when it becomes unbalanced. In other words, don't let things eat at you for a while, then have a "blow-up" argument. Slip it in jokingly into a side comment and move on. Little "tit for tat" comments that let one or the other know, "I am aware" and perhaps "It is not acceptable".

2. Men and women are NOT equal in the physical sense. Your average, everyday, typical male and female are strikingly different in terms of what their bodies are capable of. With that comes some responsibility and restraint upon the male, which not only means physical restraint, but emotional restraint. A male must learn to walk away when the argument becomes heated. I know I can playfully toss my wife around like a little rag doll and I shudder to think what I could do to her if I became enraged. Restraint and responsibility. An emotionally-triggered female may be putting her life in danger, quite literally, if she isn't respecting these differences. There is a double-standard here that must be respected.

3. We might not like it, but men and women absolutely objectify and size each other up. It's quite literally the very first thing that might stimulate enough interest for two people to meet for the first time. That's biological, and definitely not some social construct. All animals and birds do this. I know my wife likes big, lean, muscular bodies on men. It's no secret in the actors she likes to see. I know my wife loves a man in a well-tailored suit and holds himself well in a crowd of people. I know my wife and I both look at attractive people. Jokingly, at our age, it's a sign we aren't dead yet. "Why don't people get to know me first, then decide if they like me?" That's all fine and dandy if the other person is NOT looking for a life-partner, but a friend or co-worker, or at the very least, someone is going to be in the "friend zone" for a while before the other person might consider them for a life-partner. However, if there is a strong, physical attraction, then things can progress quite quickly.

4. I know this is a bit of a sore topic for many people, not just autistics. In the past 10 years, the statistics for male and female virginity have increased significantly for people under 25. This, I believe, is a social construct, not biological. An increasing number of females are not being married and having children until after the age of 30, but this has been slowly increasing for the past 30-40 years. *Note: A "geriatric female" within the context of obstetrics is anyone over 35. The statistical risks of having all sorts of genetic disorders, including autism, as well as the incidence of premature birth, rises dramatically over the age of 32. As someone who has been in neonatal medicine for nearly 40 years, our admissions have increased year after year. When I started, we had a 40-bed unit. Now, it's 120-bed unit and we are full. I have been immersed in this phenomenon. Obviously, we can come up with quite a long list of reasons for all of these socio-economic changes, but make no mistake, human beings are still physically at their sexual peaks in their 20's, not only from a "drive" perspective, but from an ability to procreate and carry a healthy baby to term gestation.

I wonder why only female humans and whales go through menopause. No other mammals are known to do it. Whether we women act consciously and/or subconsciously, we are looking for committed men who will stay with us throughout our lives, protect and provide for us and our offspring.

 

[thejuice]

Objectification theory in my opinion comes from prudish, illogical religious origins and it's been co-opted by activists and lobbiests for ideological advancement of divisive gender politics. It's bandied around like it's fact and not just a fashionable and expedient political tool.

 

[Judge]

Very true. Pregnant women cannot run from saber tooth tigers, either. Bonding has always been important to continuation of the human race.

That and divorce.

Procreate now, part later.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

@Neonatal RRT
My complaint wasn’t necessarily about objectification in and of itself, just that women shouldn’t complain that men objectify them if they themselves objectify men. If they want to be seen as people, then see us as people.
@Mary Terry

I cannot tell you just how ready I am to give my heart to one woman and be committed to her and only her, but I don’t really have anybody willing to take me up on it.

@marc_101​

So, I’m definitely the affectionate, but I ain’t looking for a fling. I’m ready to offer my loyalty to someone, and loyalty is important to me not just in relationships either.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I don’t know. I know sperm donors can at least meet their kids after they’ve reached adulthood.

I’ll take a utopia, whatever that’s supposed to look like, over the painful realities of now.

With DNA testing they will find you. Pure equality has unintended consequences as many women are currently noticing.

 

[BewilderedPerson]

With DNA testing they will find you. Pure equality has unintended consequences as many women are currently noticing.

I just hope I’d be able to have some type of relationship with them, nothing else from them.

I’m not somebody who wants to avoid kids if I have one or wants to not be bothered. No, I’d want to be as involved as I’d be allowed in my would-be son or daughter’s life.