Yet another shooting, yet another "Aspergers Syndrome" diagnosis

[King_Oni]

I am concerned that there are others that feel that same way as he did. I hope he has not opened the door to a whole new breed of insanity. I have read many comments (not on this forum, on articles related to the story) that depict this kid as a hero or a god. I hope they were just internet trolls and not actual people who actually felt like that.

That puts a new perspective on how some parts of society perceive "irrational behavior". If killing someone is justified because you feel entitled to something and you can't get it (and I'm just going to assume, you didn't try either) and people applaud this, I really wonder where we draw any line with this. Also, thinking about "the future"... if this happens now... I can't imagine how messed up incidents and motivations will be in the next few years.

I hope there aren't others who'd follow this guys ideas and start treating women like **** or kill just because their single

I'd put a safe bet that these commentators are trolls but let's be honest here, troll is not a good word for these commentators. Their really little cowardly shits who say things they wouldn't dare in real life behind their keyboards :|

Perhaps there's also a problem in how society presents sexuality and how much weight is put in having sex. I'm not justifying the actions of this guy, if anything, nowadays is the time for raging hormones.. and even more so if you're single but desperate to "get some" (having a warped sense of reality might add up as well). I think it's one of the side-effects on how society and reality is changing, and perhaps it's changing way faster than some people can deal with... instant gratification and entitlement are results of that IMO.

As for the trolls; let's hope you're right and they wouldn't dare to do it. Though, what if... what if, there's action to those words. Plenty of keyboard warriors online... if they actually got up and do what they say, you'd have a serious issue and a threat to society as a whole on your hands.

 

[Sunnylims]

That puts a new perspective on how some parts of society perceive "irrational behavior". If killing someone is justified because you feel entitled to something and you can't get it (and I'm just going to assume, you didn't try either) and people applaud this, I really wonder where we draw any line with this. Also, thinking about "the future"... if this happens now... I can't imagine how messed up incidents and motivations will be in the next few years.

As for the trolls; let's hope you're right and they wouldn't dare to do it. Though, what if... what if, there's action to those words. Plenty of keyboard warriors online... if they actually got up and do what they say, you'd have a serious issue and a threat to society as a whole on your hands.

This is why I have vowed to not reproduce. I love my unborn children so much that I don't think that I could bring such innocence into this crazy unpredictable world. I just fear that things will only get worse, not better. And i'm not trying to be super depressing, I'm just a realist.

 

[King_Oni]

This is why I have vowed to not reproduce. I love my unborn children so much that I don't think that I could bring such innocence into this crazy unpredictable world. I just fear that things will only get worse, not better. And i'm not trying to be super depressing, I'm just a realist.

That's part of the reason why I'm not overly interested in having kids either. I can do all I want to raise them properly, but way too many unhinged people that will mess it up.

 

[Sunnylims]

That's part of the reason why I'm not overly interested in having kids either. I can do all I want to raise them properly, but way too many unhinged people that will mess it up.

Exactly. You an only protect them for so long. Eventually they are the ones that are going to have to deal with the issues that we have left behind.

 

[GoofKing]

This is why I have vowed to not reproduce. I love my unborn children so much that I don't think that I could bring such innocence into this crazy unpredictable world. I just fear that things will only get worse, not better. And i'm not trying to be super depressing, I'm just a realist.

I can't blame you as this world is going to hell and insane at the same time :/ It does seem like the worlds getting worse and worse

 

[GoofKing]

That's part of the reason why I'm not overly interested in having kids either. I can do all I want to raise them properly, but way too many unhinged people that will mess it up.

I'm not sure if I could raise a child because I might still be immature and is still a child myself ...

 

[Ereth]

Before I say anything else, I want to thank ICM for his perspective, and to let him know that I agree with him. There are a lot of things wrong with what happened, but the biggest one is that this man needed professional help (which he was apparently getting, but not nearly on the scale needed). Yes, I have commented on his easy access to firearms, and I'm not apologizing for it. He bought them legally when he was in no fit state to be allowed to do so, and I do believe that the damage done might have been lessened with stricter regulations. But that's a side of the issue I'll not touch any further. Not in this thread, anyway.

But first and foremost, Rodger honestly needed to be hospitalized for his own safety and that of others. That much I recognize.

I am concerned that there are others that feel that same way as he did. I hope he has not opened the door to a whole new breed of insanity.

Oh, it's nothing new. Setting aside the specifics of Rodger's severe illness, I don't believe he was insane, though that may change as I learn more. People throw around the word "insanity" all the time when something like this happens, but very few actually meet the necessary legal definition of insanity. He was sick, yes, but in my completely unprofessional opinion, he was not insane. That said, I don't think he'll open any metaphorical doors. A number of serial rapists and murderers throughout history---sane or insane---have become fixated on a hatred of women due to perceived rejection. Troubled and/or abuse-ridden childhoods are also frequent in these individuals.

I guess my main point is that Rodger believed he was somebody completely different from the masses, but really, he's just the next in a long line of similarly deluded killers.

 

[King_Oni]

Setting aside the specifics of Rodger's severe illness, I don't believe he was insane, though that may change as I learn more. People throw around the word "insanity" all the time when something like this happens, but very few actually meet the necessary legal definition of insanity. He was sick, yes, but in my completely unprofessional opinion, he was not insane.

Then what exactly is the definition of insane?

I mean, if he was so caught up in his beliefs, which expressed in the text ICM shared from facebook, I would't call his behavior sane in any way.

So I'm kinda curious what exactly defines "insane".

 

[Judge]

People throw around the word "insanity" all the time when something like this happens, but very few actually meet the necessary legal definition of insanity. He was sick, yes, but in my completely unprofessional opinion, he was not insane.

I would tend to agree. Under the McNaghten rule (California's insanity defense) they'd have to emphasize two critical points for such a defense in this jurisdiction: That a defendant did not understand the nature of their criminal act, or did not understand that what they were doing was morally wrong. (Bear in mind the terms for insanity pleas vary from state to state.)

Given Rodger's known evasive interactions with the police prior to executing his murder plot, it might prove very difficult to ascertain either key point for such a defense unless the jury was extraordinarily sympathetic, focused mostly on his history of mental issues and subsequent treatment. I'm just not sure how a jury would have digested it all.

Of course I think it's also probable that had he been captured, he'd have a high profile criminal defense lawyer. In any event at least we are spared such another prolonged media spectacle.

 

[GoofKing]

I honestly don't know what counts as insanity and what doesn't :/

I just remember a doctor asking me a question about why we have rules and laws when I was committed into a mental hospital and now-a-days seem insane because the laws that define what reality we're all suppose to see is being twisted by propaganda and lawyers Everything seems so chaotic and a lot of things have happened in the past ...

 

[Judge]

I honestly don't know what counts as insanity and what doesn't :/

I just remember a doctor asking me a question about why we have rules and laws when I was committed into a mental hospital and now-a-days seem insane because the laws that define what reality we're all suppose to see is being twisted by propaganda and lawyers Everything seems so chaotic and a lot of things have happened in the past ...

It's complicated!

The Insanity Defense Among the States - FindLaw

 

[GoofKing]

It's complicated!

The Insanity Defense Among the States - FindLaw

Too complicated for me to understand apparently ...

 

[Sunnylims]

I'm in the middle of reading his manifesto. I have scrolled passed a lot of it because my eyes hurt from looking at such long pieces of text. It's crazy to read this whole thing, I know, but how often do mass murderers leave behind such detailed motives for their crimes?
It's interesting to read how he grew up and the progression from innocent child to vengeful killer. I'm thinking that at this point, I would consider him "insane" because he thought that what he was doing was for the good of humanity. But that's just my opinion, I'm certainly no doctor. He had delusions that he was an alpha male and that he was doing a public service by eliminating the "evil". Oh, the irony.

I'm just not sure how a jury would have digested it all.

I can't even imagine how things would be right now had he not taken his own life. And yeah that jury would have definitely had a lot on their hands.

 

[wyverary]

I can't even imagine how things would be right now had he not taken his own life. And yeah that jury would have definitely had a lot on their hands.

I always feel for the jurors that have to serve for such high-profile and emotionally-charged cases. I can think of several in the recent past (won't mention them here) where it could be that the jury made the correct decision, but that decision sparked an enormous public outcry. God help me if I'm ever called and chosen for such a case!

 

[King_Oni]

So... going over a few different "models" different states to define insanity,I think there's one thing that kinda resounds in all models, even if it's worded slightly different

He had to know that what he was doing was wrong.

As Alexa just pointed out from his manifesto, as what I've read in a few reports, he thought he was doing the right thing in his actions. He felt it was justified to do these things. That all by itself might give "insanity" more favor.

 

[Judge]

Yet it was Rodger himself who acknowledged that he nearly got "caught" a month ago when the police knocked on his door to check on his welfare. Sounds like he knew full well he was in the pursuit of a criminal act.

“I had the striking and devastating fear that someone had somehow discovered what I was planning to do, and reported me for it,”
- Elliot Rodger

That seems to run contrary to what would be required to ascertain a successful insanity defense in California.

Could a high-profile defense attorney have spun this in another direction? Maybe. Maybe not. But in many cases good money buys good defenses. And it's no secret Rodger would have likely had the best criminal defense Hollywood money can buy.

 

[Sunnylims]

Good point. Damn, now I'm confused.

 

[King_Oni]

Heh... makes me wonder if making these kinds of plans way ahead and thus trying to avoid any interference (or inability to execute them) does at least make him a more "calculated killer"... there are probably some in history with such an MO.

What's worth wondering is if even the pre-planning was with a "healthy" mind so to say, or if he wasn't already in a state of well.. "craziness" to start with.

 

[Judge]

But less than a month before his attacks, after he had planned the killings and obtained the guns he would use, the community college student opened his door to a knock to find about seven officers looking for him.

“I had the striking and devastating fear that someone had somehow discovered what I was planning to do, and reported me for it,” Rodger said in a manifesto obtained by California's KEYT-TV, excerpts of which were published by the Los Angeles Times.

“If that was the case, the police would have searched my room, found all of my guns and weapons, along with my writings about what I plan to do with them. I would have been thrown in jail, denied of the chance to exact revenge on my enemies. I can't imagine a hell darker than that. Thankfully, that wasn't the case, but it was so close,” he wrote.

He said he learned that videos he posted online had alarmed his mother, and he believed either she or a mental health agency had asked authorities to check up on him.

SANTA BARBARA, Calif.: Police nearly caught California shooter a month ago | National | The Bellingham Herald

 

[Ereth]

Thanks to Judge for beating me to the punch and mentioning that the legal definition of insanity varies from state to state. I suppose I should have mentioned it in my last post, but it slipped my mind. Anyway, it's more of a legal thing than a medical one, though a person's medical issues may inform the decision as to whether one meets the definition.

Basically, under California law, Rodger would have had to prove that he didn't understand the nature of his criminal acts or that he didn't understand that his actions are morally wrong.

As Alexa just pointed out from his manifesto, as what I've read in a few reports, he thought he was doing the right thing in his actions. He felt it was justified to do these things. That all by itself might give "insanity" more favor.

A feeling of justification that something is right isn't the same thing as a lack of awareness of right and wrong.

And as Judge said, Rodger was aware that he might have been caught. He even took down his YouTube videos after his family discovered them, only to repost them a few days later. He had his weapons and ammunition hidden in his room and feared authorities would find them. He had a map of the route he planned to take and everything, and when he discusses in his manifesto that he would kill himself after taking as many lives as possible, he says he refuses to suffer the insult of going to prison. (I'm paraphrasing here, but that's essentially it.)

Surely if he had lived, he'd be going for at least temporary insanity as a defense, but I think there's enough evidence to prove he knew exactly what he wanted to do and wanted to be remembered for it.