Why it's so hard to convince employer (game developer) to look at you work?

[ElvenNeko]

TL, DR: I spent 17 years trying to convince people to spend 15 minutes to look at my job examples. Nobody agrees. To me it seems weird because 15 minutes is nothing for a possible interesting read (at least) and possible valuable gain (at best). And since they just do not answer me, i don't know the reason why it happens.


My interest is creating worlds and stories for video games, and also core gameplay mechanics that would suit the story well and give player fresh expiriences. I spent my entire life to study all the video games in genres that interest me, and now i know what makes them good or bad, how to avoid annoying cliches, how to make proper pacing, and other important things. I also picked the best story ideas from thousands i had, and spent years refining them into near-perfect state. Some of my stories can easily compete with the best existing games in various genres. And while my original stories are the best thing i can offer, i can also work on existing ones (if the genre and lore will suit my skills) to make them better in any possible way - create quests, write characters, lore parts, or improving story itself.

I can't publish my works openly since it will instantly devalue them, but i always offer to show them to the developers in private, and i also have small examples of lower quality on my website, as well as RPG game published on Steam, that has only positive feedback about the story despite it's being only a prologue. Yet still none of that seems to be enough to convince developers to look at my works and i don't understand why - they not losing anything if they do, but they still never respond to me, or respond saying that they already have a writer (only few times). Even saying that i am from thrid-world country and ready to work for any payment, no matter how low it is not helping.

It's especially sad because i constantly see very incompetent writers and game designers ruining the multi-million projects, and causing massive losses to the companies yet still getting even better jobs in the future. I can point out every mistake they made and how it could be corrected with minimal effort and budget, but... who will listen to be. It's very frustrating to know that you can do better, but nobody will ever give you a chance to prove that.

I got the advice from other developers to take another gamedev job and after working on it for some time ask for writer's role in the team, but i am unable to do that because i have memory problems, and they are especially bad when it comes to thing that do not interest me, i have a very hard time learning them and forgetting them very fast. For example i tried to learn programming but now can't remember how to even code hello world. Or i spent years mastering various level editors, but now have only vague memories about how to use them. I am spending more time reading manuals over and over again instead of actually working and can't be effective employee at any other role.

Why it's so hard to convince a human to read a file for 15 minutes? I think even most busy people in the world can find extra 15 minutes once in month or something. For them it's nothing, for me - it could change my entire life from pointless existence to being happy by fufilling my purpose.

 

[Judge]

You know that cliche, "It's not what you know, but WHO you know."

It's true...or at least it was when I worked as a web designer for a game publisher/developer in Silicon Valley around the turn of the century. It's precisely how I got my job, being referred from an insider I knew from tech school. Had I not had that referral, I probably would have never gotten that particular job.

One of the briefest job interviews I ever had. The marketing/public relations manager simply looked at my online portfolio and asked when I could start.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Well wishes to you, may prosperity come into your life!

I have a suggestion, often it seems that people of talent do not make good salesmen in general. Perhaps it might help if another was promoting you?

 

[Fino]

Because people are overrun with talentless hacks begging people to look at their work, so everyone's become cynical and numb to it.

 

[Misery]

Unfortunately, that's the modern AAA industry for you.

I have a few things to say about this, I apologize if this is a bit long, but here we go:

I guarantee you: What the big companies are looking for is NOT talent, at least not of the sort you're thinking of here.

The one and ONLY thing they care about is money. It's that simple. It really is.

Thing is, when it comes to those big million/billion dollar projects? The devs are NOT in control. They probably never were. They either follow the orders of their corporate overlords... or their entire studio is at risk (and of course their individual jobs). That's why you see so little risk-taking when it comes to design, so little creativity, and such, in the AAA space: Because risk-taking and creativity are not guaranteed to SELL. What IS almost guaranteed is to just go with whatever is already popular, mimic that, and sell that. So, the developer who is working under that giant publisher either follows that... or they get The Boot. And sometimes, the developer DOES follow that... and they STILL get The Boot. The corporate guys in charge DO NOT actually care about or even understand the quality of the final product. They typically know NOTHING about games AT ALL (I cant emphasize that enough) and all they see is sales numbers... period.

And that's not even getting into the many OTHER problems with AAA development. If you want to be worked so unbelievably hard that you fall into deepest despair as a result while getting abused by higher-ups... well hey, AAA dev work is the way to go! I wish I were joking about that.

An unfortunate truth about this is that if you want to do the sort of things that you're thinking of? You cant go AAA. It's not going to happen. Your writing/design talents WILL be wasted there.

I say this because everything you say here and the way you said it, it says that you're not in this just for the money (as many developers unfortunately are), but it also says you're genuinely passionate about this overall. And passion is not respected in the corporate world.

I felt the same way. Wanted to make games since I was a little kid. And then I found out what the Big Dev experience is REALLY like. Gotta say, that popped my bubble REAL fast.

I discovered indie gaming a number of years ago... and that's what flipped everything for me.

If you go THAT route, well, it doesnt matter WHAT you want to make... you can make it. You dont have some giant corporation breathing down your neck. There's nobody to tell you what to do. That's why creativity is so crazy high among indies.

And it was the route that *I* had to take in order to finally do what I wanted... and eventually, I did.

Here's the thing though: getting involved on an indie team doesnt work like how it does in the AAA world. In the AAA world, you gotta go through traditional application processes and all that gibberish and then MAYBE you'll get some crap-level entry position.

But in Indie Land, that.... usually isnt what happens. Sometimes you may form a team that is you and a few people you know, and you just all declare "dagnabit LETS FREAKING DO THIS" and you come up with a "studio" name, and go from there. That's the origin story for quite a few prolific indie teams.

Or perhaps you go a similar route to what I did. I didnt just decide to form some team or whatever, I'm too anti-social and frankly lazy to do that. I got involved in TESTING. And I'd often somehow manage to get myself close to the dev in question. I've often been in situations where I'd be sent non-public builds for some early-access game, and asked for more direct help with problems and design issues. Basically... I just sorta got INVOLVED.

And then the contract offer hit. I didnt plan it, I didnt expect it. It came from a developer (Arcen Games) who I'd gotten to know, and whose games I quite loved. They sent me a contract offer, out of the blue.

What got me the contract? Well it sure wasnt a bloody resume, I dont have one. No application, none of that. On their forums I had randomly decided to show off a particular bullet-hell game I was really into, so I posted a video of me playing it and then I talked about it a whole bunch because I tend to want to tell people about games I think are awesome. But that video just happened to be of gameplay done at a *very* high skill level... which the devs spotted. In their mind, anyone who could do any of the stuff I was pulling off must know a lot about that specific genre (which is true) and they wanted to make such a game yet they themselves didnt know how to approach that genre... so they asked me.

I was brought in for an expansion to a game they already had out (where they were sort of ADDING bullet-hell elements), and then when that went well, was asked to help them make something entirely new, a game that focused on that from the ground up. I was given a lot of control over the project for... some reason. That was kinda scary. But it worked out!

Not exactly how dev-work normally starts, eh? The AAA jobs sure as bloody heck NEVER start that way. And what's more, these guys worked WITH me instead of against me, when it came to things like the whole autism issue and my physical restrictions. They were VERY good about that.

Wheras the AAA guys absolutely WILL NOT hesitate to put you through 100 hour crunch weeks. After all, it's no skin off the noses of the guys who will be the ones to actually profit...


Overall, what I'm saying here is: You CAN make what you want. But you're going to have to use a non-traditional approach.

Heck, I myself am planning to make... er... something. I'm not ENTIRELY sure what. But I figured, if I can make something with that team... maybe I can make something of my own too (as they're MUCH too busy with a project that they sorta had no choice but to do, and it's of a genre I cant help with).

Challenging though, I'm not sure what I'm going to do exactly. I can handle a lot of the gameplay stuff myself but non-gameplay stuff is... not in my skillset.

So that's what I have to say about that. If you'd care to talk more about this subject or something related to this or whatever, feel free to message me directly, I'd be happy to discuss this sort of thing.

 

[paloftoon]

Conventions might be a good starting point for you. It's about how you market yourself and your game(s) too.

 

[ElvenNeko]

Perhaps it might help if another was promoting you?

Again i will come to the problem where i need to convince another person who have connections in gamedev to look at my jobs.

An unfortunate truth about this is that if you want to do the sort of things that you're thinking of? You cant go AAA. It's not going to happen. Your writing/design talents WILL be wasted there.

I never said i want to go to the aaa-only. Some of my concepts are good for indie or aa games as well.

But, to be honest, some of the most impressive stories i expirienced lately (Horizon Zero Dawn and RDR2) were an aaa-expiriences. And i must say that it is not just a lucky coincidence, both of this games were made with a purpose of telling the story first.

The problem with indie - is that all the studios i joined never released anything. After year or two working they just losing passion and... disappearing without saying anything. And it happens every single time. The only time i was able to finish the game - is when i was lucky to find the artist to assist me, but since i am bad at making connections it was an extreme luck that will never happen again.

 

[Misery]

The problem with indie - is that all the studios i joined never released anything. After year or two working they just losing passion and... disappearing without saying anything. And it happens every single time. The only time i was able to finish the game - is when i was lucky to find the artist to assist me, but since i am bad at making connections it was an extreme luck that will never happen again.

AA probably wont happen any better than AAA either, to be honest. It's... not that different from the AAA side, it just involves a bit less money.

The issue you're running into with indies is one of those things where you just have to sorta work at it and approach it differently. It sounds like you might have done two things:

1. Started working with others, but those others had never once released anything AND had never truly tried much.

2. Started TOO BIG.

Here's the thing: Your first game project SHOULD NOT take 1 to 2 years. It should take like, maybe, a month. And that's working solo (once you've learned enough to start creating, that is... obviously you have to do the initial steps before any of this). You dont start with a big, full-fledged project with a full-on team... you just dont. That's a road to sadness and tragedy and wasted time. The way to start is to make really small things first, introduce those things into indie dev communities for feedback (since feedback is your entire goal early on), and maybe plop them onto Itch and see what random people might have to say. Once you've gotten more of a handle on how things really work, and gotten some experience, seen what does and does not go well... THEN you can go from there, and see about truly forming a team (not that you genuinely NEED one... you dont). This also sorta filters out the people who arent quite sure they're ready to commit to anything yet, because those people wont make it that far.

Seriously: Smaller things first. If you've seen all those game jams that happen all the time, that's exactly WHY they happen: They're meant to give practice, experience, and feedback, with a time restriction set to keep you focused and help you understand that early stuff needs to be SMALL (while of course still allowing more experienced devs to challenge themselves). Many full-on indie devs that release full games will have made about a bazillion smaller things that never show up on Steam or whatever BEFORE they made whatever they did fully release.

You're not going to be able to start out by releasing this big story-rich thing. You just arent... it seriously doesnt work that way. And that's good, because if it DID work that way, average game quality would probably be far lower than it is.

But, to be honest, some of the most impressive stories i expirienced lately (Horizon Zero Dawn and RDR2) were an aaa-expiriences. And i must say that it is not just a lucky coincidence, both of this games were made with a purpose of telling the story first.

Ehhh... RDR in particular was made with money as the first purpose. Seriously the devs behind that game were VERY abused... it's one of the things that got a lot of the current dialogue about the negative state of AAA development going in the first place, which has put the spotlight on a number of different companies and set of a string of screwball events. It started a fire that's burning hotter each day, I'll put it that way... heck it looks like freaking Activision is about to outright burst, that'll be amusing, and they arent even connected to RDR...

*ahem*

But yeah, telling a story is NOT the reason why that was made. It just happens to have a fairly good story. And even then, I'm going to take a wild, craaaaaaaaazy guess and say that there were a lot of ways in which the story COULD have still been better yet... but it wasnt allowed to be. Just call it a hunch.


Regardless, I can think of a lot of excellent story-focused things that are definitely not on the AAA side. There are a LOT of indie games that are pretty much pure storytelling. Some more well known than others. But what makes them so interesting is the lack of restrictions, which means that there are many ways to tell stories. In AAA land, it's mostly... cutscenes. The story is thrown AT the player. Characters talk and pre-set things happen and you watch them happen, even your own character will talk without you inputting anything. Bores the heck outta me, frankly.

When it comes to story focused indies though, there's not just so many good stories out there, but there's so many different ways to TELL those stories. A couple of extra-creative examples are Cultist Simulator and Strange Telephone. I'm not even going to try to describe how either of these work because that'll give me a headache, but suffice it to say... you aint gonna find cutscenes in either (you WILL find absolute confusion though). Cultist Simulator in particular did very well overall, that one's popular (though I personally am terrible at it), and Strange Telephone is very niche, but I thought it was pretty great (even if it confused the heck outta me).

For some more straightforward, very focused experiences, I always recommend Umfend, I freaking *loved* that one. There's also something like OneShot, which is apparently very good though I've not played it (supposedly it's a pretty sad one, I dont deal with "sad" too well). I also played through "Mothered" recently, which was absolutely spectacular. And then there's something like Poppy Playtime, which has half the bloody internet talking about it, trying to analyze all the story elements and figure out what's coming next.

Those games are what I guess I'd call "pure" story experiences. They're short things sometimes (Cultist Simulator isnt though, due to its nature) but the story is the absolute focus, told well without being unnecessarily stretched out (which is a problem I often have with AAA projects), and often told in a unique way. And typically creative, too. Mothered in particular was... yeah, I'd never seen anything quite like THAT before. Bloody unique experience, that one.

Why am I talking about these? Because they're excellent examples that can inspire, and can show what indies can do when they want to. Granted, these are just MY examples, and I personally tend to focus on things with a horror and/or surreal theme, and I like it when stories stick to the bloody point and arent told over some 80-hour thing. There are tons of story-focused games though that are different from just what I like.

The point I'm saying is: If the people who made these things could do it... so can you, if you really want to. But as I said, you're going to have to change your approach. You just plain arent going to get what you're after by handing anyone a resume... it wont work.

Start small, start simple... real simple. And engage with related communities. You dont have to meet and make friends or even join a team, but you do want feedback and the ability to ask questions when needed.

Note also, you dont need to know how to program nor do you need to be an artist to do any of this. Yet it can still be done solo if you really want to. Non-coding game creation engines exist (such as Clickteam Fusion for instance) because of course they do, and there are lots of people out there who create free art of all sorts that exist purely for other game makers to use. After all, LOTS of game devs are not artists, so... resources like that are a popular idea.

Heck I'm not an artist OR a coder... but I still have a full-on solo project that I intend on doing (as soon as I've worked out the details, I tend to be a bit indecisive). If I can do it... and I can... then so can you.

 

[ElvenNeko]

It should take like, maybe, a month.

That will be a bad, boring and pointless games. I don't want to make them. Especially since i already made a decent one. Making small bad games that nobody needs won't help me in anything.

It just happens to have a fairly good story.

No. If you think so you don't know the difference. And the difference is that they had to implement lots of mechanics, spent a lot of money and time to record mo-cap, voice lines and scripts to make story good and game's world alive. I saw countless of other developers just cutting all the story content so game could be cheaper or faster made. Cyberpunk is a glaring example of such incompetence, or Re3R. But rdr2 were made with story in mind, and major part of the game were build around story events, instead of being the opposite like in most games.

Yes, the story could be better. I know it's weak points and could improve it a lot. But it's still good enough.

But what makes them so interesting is the lack of restrictions, which means that there are many ways to tell stories.

Any game that isn't a text-based or something simillarly limited has a lot of ways to tell the story. My favorite example is What Remains of Edith Finch. And aaa games not limited to cutscenes. HZD has half of it's story told trough visual storytelling, audio and text notes.

And i know about construction endgines. My released game was built on one of them. Yet still i had to cut half of the features and it was only good because i had an artist, default graphics are attrocious. All those kits are too primitive to tell a good story the way i want to tell it.

 

[Misery]

That will be a bad, boring and pointless games. I don't want to make them. Especially since i already made a decent one. Making small bad games that nobody needs won't help me in anything.

That's... not what I meant. At all.

The month long projects arent games you fully release, arent your "main" project. As ANY developer will tell you: You *DO NOT* start with large projects. Unless you want them to not get anywhere. You get experience and learn more by starting small. Most indie devs will create lots... and lots... and LOTS of small, simple things before they even DARE to start on a true, "release it on Steam" game. What you do with the "practice" projects is, well... gain experience, and share them with others in the indie-dev community to get feedback, learn what you did wrong, what you did right, and you IMPROVE. The more you learn, the more you DO... the better your REAL project will be when it releases. Ever heard of "game jams"? THAT is why they exist.

But also, game quality has little to do with how long it takes. It seriously doesnt. That's something that pure experience taught me (as I, too, used to think that "good" games MUST take forever. I was horribly wrong.) I can explain that further if you want to know WHY development length doesnt equate to game quality. It's not hard to explain (it'd be a few paragraphs though), but it IS something that many people have misconceptions of. A skilled dev doesnt go "oh it's gonna take 3 years because everyone knows development always takes years". A skilled dev takes no more time than they NEED... simple as that. There are spectacular games out there that were made very quickly, simply because the dev in question was skilled and had tons of practice and experience before making the game they put out.


On a side note, I want to make something very clear here.

This isnt all coming from some doofus that plays random games and thinks he knows how development works. This is coming from someone who has... well... far more experience than I normally let on. Aside from all the full-on dev experience (multiple games, with each getting expansions, and one of them even producing "super fans", AKA players who spent HUNDREDS of hours with it... and believe me, THAT is rare. Yes, the game came out VERY well... and didnt take long to make. 4 months, I think it was... and it's a full-on Isaac style bullet-hell game, with the amount of content that implies), I've also been testing games for... probably 20 years or so. And I dont mean "early access, just play the game early LOL" sort of "testing". I mean testing that happens in direct conjunction with the devs of whatever game it is. Balancing in particular is what I'm good at, so that's what I usually assist with. It's a complicated process, but it sure TEACHES a lot about what development is REALLY like.

In other words: I know development, because of pure experience. Like many others on the spectrum, I have obsessive special interests... and this is one of them. With everything that implies. I wouldnt bother with this conversation otherwise.

And that's part of why I'm telling you, starting with small simple things... to gain experience... is VERY important. There's NO FREAKING WAY the stuff I worked on could EVER have been good enough to have "super fans" if the people on the team had never done practice projects first.

If you want to really enthrall people with an amazing game? If you want to hit your REAL potential? That's the ONLY way to get there. All experienced devs know that.

If you think so you don't know the difference. And the difference is that they had to implement lots of mechanics, spent a lot of money and time to record mo-cap, voice lines and scripts to make story good and game's world alive. I saw countless of other developers just cutting all the story content so game could be cheaper or faster made. Cyberpunk is a glaring example of such incompetence, or Re3R. But rdr2 were made with story in mind, and major part of the game were build around story events, instead of being the opposite like in most games.

Perhaps I should have specified this. Money is the reason the *project* was ever greenlit to begin with. The reason behind the game's creation as a whole.

The reason the *story* came out the way it did though is simply because of SHEER TALENT. As smashed up as those poor devs are... they're just THAT FREAKING GOOD at what they do. They did it despite being so abused, despite corporate meddling... incredible. That's what I meant by "it just happened to come out that way". Because the guys who are ACTUALLY in charge only care about profit... but they just happened to have that level of talent among the people who did the real work. So it happened ANYWAY.

Compare that with Cyberpunk... as you said, its pretty much incompetence incarnate. Corporate meddling AND bad devs. I need not even say more about THAT mess. I feel sorry for those who were so excited about it...

Any game that isn't a text-based or something simillarly limited has a lot of ways to tell the story. My favorite example is What Remains of Edith Finch. And aaa games not limited to cutscenes. HZD has half of it's story told trough visual storytelling, audio and text notes.

And i know about construction endgines. My released game was built on one of them. Yet still i had to cut half of the features and it was only good because i had an artist, default graphics are attrocious. All those kits are too primitive to tell a good story the way i want to tell it.

Yes, I know. That's why I gave those examples of story-focused games I'm familiar with (and yeah, I do know Edith Finch too).

And yes, I understand what you mean by the last paragraph (the bit about pre-made graphics aint accurate, though. The issue is that there's SO FREAKING MANY of them. Ya gotta sift through the crap to find the gold... and that aint easy. Ya gotta know WHERE to look before you even start looking. Note that I"m NOT talking about default graphics that COME WITH the engines. Ye gods no, those usually ARE bad...). Even I have some stories I want to tell, but... if I did so, since they're horror-themed, I'd want them specifically in first-person view. Unexpectedly, I actually think I've found a way to make that happen. On my own. Despite an utter lack of coding ability. Experiments will begin in two weeks, after my trip.

And I *seriously* think you could do something like that too. I'll tell you the same thing I tell so many people on this forum, and if you take ANYTHING away from this post, let it be this one, specific thing:

The moment you say "I cant do this" is the moment you've already lost. Stop saying that. Stop saying "I cant", stop saying "it'll never work". (and yes I know that's not EXACTLY what you said, but the theme is the same, and that theme is what I mean). No, I dont care WHAT the situation is or what you have VS dont have. You CAN do it, you CAN find a way... but it's up to YOU to believe and make it happen. You can either give up, and DEFINITELY fail... or you can refuse to give up, and eventually conquer.

This is why I'm discussing this with you AT ALL: Because I have, so many times, watched skilled devs give up when I KNEW they could have made it. The passion you have for this is very obvious. I hate seeing someone with that kind of sheer passion and drive give up when they dont have to. You CAN create the game you really want. But you gotta believe, and you gotta TAKE THE STEPS.

 

[ElvenNeko]

You get experience and learn more by starting small.

I have enough expirience in my job. I don't need more, i had 20 years of practice. And my first released game has zero negative feedback about the story, how many writers can say that? What practice will give me if i have this game released on Steam already?

And that not to mention all the unreleased games i worked on. There are dozens of them.

but they just happened to have that level of talent among the people who did the real work

How do you know that they not searched for specific talents instead of randomly getting them? It's not hard to find a talanted person. You just ask anyone to do the test task and see who makes it better.

The moment you say "I cant do this" is the moment you've already lost. Stop saying that.

Saying that i can won't change the objective reality. I tried saying that to myself when i tried to learn programming, modelling, level design, music, art. Every time i spent a lot of time with no results. I simply can't remember or learn stuff that is not interesting to me. I need a team to do that. Where everyone is good at what they do just as i am with my stories and design concepts. But i had no idea how to find one that won't fall apart and will be interested in same things as i am.

 

[Misery]

I have enough expirience in my job. I don't need more, i had 20 years of practice. And my first released game has zero negative feedback about the story, how many writers can say that? What practice will give me if i have this game released on Steam already?

And that not to mention all the unreleased games i worked on. There are dozens of them.

Aha, so you DO have unreleased projects. That's good. That's really good.

....and you're gonna need more of them.

Here's the thing: You wanna make this thing? This big idea you have in mind? The creation you REALLY want to do? You're gonna need to learn more. The condition of "but I already released a game" does not mean you've maxed out as a developer. Or even gotten close.

It's the same with me. I've been a part of MULTIPLE game releases. One of them was particularly big, and I had a BIG role, too. The enemies, bosses, of which there are hundreds... I had to design AND implement them. Myself. Nobody was gonna do it for me. So I bloody well did it.

I did A LOT. And it turned out... I did it well. The game has a 92% positive rating on Steam, and some people played it for hundreds of hours. Hundreds! It blew my mind!

And, like you, I didnt exactly get negative feedback on the stuff I specialize in. People really liked it. It was all positive. I know that freaking genre, and it shows.

So, did it give me all the experience I need? Should I stop practicing? I already made a game, right, so that's enough, yeah?

Ye gods, no! NO! I learned a lot from that project. BUT. I could learn a lot MORE. I cant say "but I ALREADY DID ONE" if I want my next project to be even better. I can do better. I WILL do better. And I can do it on my own. No team this time. But I cant do it unless I GET THAT PRACTICE. There's no other way to TRULY get good at this stuff. I mean, really, you think I did that bullet hell stuff just by freaking osmosis? Just by absorbing the knowledge by playing that type of game? Good grief no. I did the practice long before hitting that project. I learned a lot. But I can learn even more. I can do even better.

And that's how I'm going to go into my next big idea (which I fully intend to be a solo project). That thought process. I gotta learn a new engine to do it (a no-coding engine) and it cant be a little simple one. Gonna take lots of practice! There's so much to learn!

See what I'm getting at? Making games is just like any other hobby or skill. You wanna get truly good results? YA GOTTA PRACTICE. There's no magic solution that lets you fart out a truly good product without doing that. ALL experienced developers know this. Period.

You already put out a game, sure. And hey: I seriously think that's great. Really. Too many people give up before ever releasing ANYTHING, but you got one to release! Excellent! But however the final quality is... you can DO EVEN BETTER. Wouldnt that be great?

How do you know that they not searched for specific talents instead of randomly getting them? It's not hard to find a talanted person. You just ask anyone to do the test task and see who makes it better.

Oh yes, I know. There's lots of talented people out there.

But the people who created RDR2 had a VERY abnormal level of talent. You dont make something like that, in THOSE conditions, without that. That's EXCEEDINGLY rare. Whoever the heck did the HIRING for that company... holy heck, they deserve a freaking MEDAL. That's what I meant. Obviously there are plenty of people out there with talent. But... talent THAT FREAKING HIGH? No. Very, very few.

Saying that i can won't change the objective reality. I tried saying that to myself when i tried to learn programming, modelling, level design, music, art. Every time i spent a lot of time with no results. I simply can't remember or learn stuff that is not interesting to me. I need a team to do that. Where everyone is good at what they do just as i am with my stories and design concepts. But i had no idea how to find one that won't fall apart and will be interested in same things as i am.

Hmmm... well, to be honest, I've been there. Seriously, I have.

I wanted to be a programmer once, you know? I really wanted to because I thought that's how games were made, that's the only way.

But... you know what, I dont like programming. So heck with that... I discovered engines... VERSATILE engines... able to do all the things I could want... that have no coding. Programming is dull and slow. So I found another way.

The trick wasnt "oh I MUST learn this specific thing to do this". The trick... and this took me bloody forever to figure out... was to learn that THERE ARE OTHER WAYS. I thought otherwise. I was wrong. And that was a very hard lesson to learn.

Even harder to learn was the fact that I DONT NEED A TEAM. I've mentioned that I intend on a solo project, yeah? I didnt mention, in full, what that is. A full, first-person horror game... a short story-focused experience of the sort that I've been really enjoying lately. Know what that means? Freakin' Unreal Engine. I discovered that coding IS NOT NEEDED for that. A bit of research, looked into it... and I know it suits me. I can freaking DO IT.

Same with modelling. It occurred to me: I dont need to make these super perfect mega realistic human characters. And I should do this in MY style, figure out my own unique way of creating visuals. So you know what? Gonna make it SURREAL. That suits me and I can work with that and there's no freaking guidelines on what everything has to look like. Some devs are REALLY good at that and it's inspired me. I'll do it MY way, the fun way, instead of the boring pre-set way.

And this goes for all elements of this, not just those two.

The thing about ALL of this is learning, again, that there is more ways than one to do it. I dont have to program. I can approach modelling in an unusual way that suits ME instead of "OMG gotta do it how everyone else does it" and still get good results. And so on. I can take elements that, originally, I thought were boring/uninteresting, but because I chose a very different approach... suddenly it isnt either of those things. You'd be surprised, how many devs do this (no, seriously, A LOT of them). This is actually how I did the bullet-hell stuff. The guy in charge never told me "you gotta do it THIS way", so... I didnt. I did it my own really screwball way, and... it got results. Without boring me.

The objective reality is what YOU make of it. But if you dont TRY NEW THINGS, you wont find the bits that makes it work for you!

And yeah, I know: The whole autism thing... it kinda makes that hard. Believe me: I struggle with it too. But it can be overcome.

SERIOUSLY: You. Can. Make. That. Game. Team or no team.

One more thing to keep in mind though: I know the main thing you're into is writing. I get that. But every developer needs to be able to do some of the things they dont like doing. Even with a team, seriously. Most people with a team dont get the "perfect" team where everyone does their one specific role and that's it. A good team is usually made of people who have learned to do multiple things, because that's how you fill holes.

Seriously, I know some parts of development suck. Me, I *hate* bug hunting. I. Freaking. Hate. It. But you know what, if I wanna make games, I gotta just freaking DO IT. Ya gotta do the stupid things sometimes. That's development for you. Even when you find methods that really WORK for you, that make the overall process good? There's still going to be some stupid bits in there that you wont like, and you just have to get over that, like every other dev eventually must.

That's enough outta me for now though. Sorry that these posts are always so bloody long. Not so good at the communication, always with the rambling. And it's time for a bit of a break from the ol' computer now. Mustn't do JUST computer stuff all day, aint healthy...

 

[ElvenNeko]

You're gonna need to learn more.

I am always learning. But i am passed the point when small games will give me any valuable expirience. The thing with my profession is that i can practice without developing a game. I am good at imagining my games and can predict fairly well how others will react on it. I published a concept of 3d survival game somewhere in 2006, when they were not a thing. Also after playing a turn-based battle royale game i knew that if someone will make a shooter out of it it will turn out awesome, and i was right. So far none of my concepts has disappointed anyone, even if they were implemented by someone else.

I practice all the time, but either by studying games made by others, or by making games in my head. My job does not involve any technical implementations, so even if i would work on actual game - i woul do exactly the same thing, with exception of sharing them with a team.

You dont make something like that, in THOSE conditions, without that. That's EXCEEDINGLY rare.

No, i don't thing so. My best work are on exactly same level, for example. And i can work in any conditions.

Whoever the heck did the HIRING for that company... holy heck, they deserve a freaking MEDAL.

Not only this, but also the person who gave them creative freedom. If you giving freedom to talanted people - you receiving a hit.
But if you saying "don't make non-humanoid aliens because it will be hard to cosplay them" as people did with ME Andromeda, you receive a bad end result. Freedom and absence of stupid demands from marketing department is the key to sucsess.

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS

For me, there are not. There is always a bottleneck with asset or gameplay mechanics that i can't find to be pre-made for me. And without them nothing will work.

And understanding blueprints is almost as hard as coding for me. Not to mention learning the editor. And re-learning every single day since i forget half of the things.

 

[Judge]

Freedom and absence of stupid demands from marketing department is the key to success.

For what it's worth, from my perspective if you're inadvertently projecting such sentiments in a job interview you haven't a prayer of being hired. Working in the heart of the Marketing Dept. I was within earshot of the Marketing Vice President's office. I came to realize just how intrusive marketing was all across the corporate spectrum of that particular software publishing/gaming operation. And how cynical they were about their customers -particularly the two public relations officers.

They do indeed at times make some pretty bizarre decisions. But the point is from my perspective they were very much in control. And in this context I suspect little has changed in the last 20 years.

 

[paloftoon]

Elven, maybe you should look into creating your own KickStarter and advertising at as many cons as you can beforehand and during the KickStarter itself. Find another job to hold you over in the mean time.

Misery has such on-point experience that I don't think you'd hear in another forum.

You seem to have all the answers though. So, please don't let us hold you back then.

 

[Misery]

For what it's worth, from my perspective if you're inadvertently projecting such sentiments in a job interview you haven't a prayer of being hired. Working in the heart of the Marketing Dept. I was within earshot of the Marketing Vice President's office. I came to realize just how intrusive marketing was all across the corporate spectrum of that particular software publishing/gaming operation. And how cynical they were about their customers -particularly the two public relations officers.

They do indeed at times make some pretty bizarre decisions. But the point is from my perspective they were very much in control. And in this context I suspect little has changed in the last 20 years.

YES. Thank you.

This is part of what I keep saying, but better said. I can never phrase things quite this well.

The corporate execs are seriously in control, in an environment where they exist. This isnt the case with indies, but with AAA or AA, it absolutely is. And they definitely wont hire anyone who isnt willing to submit to that control (as per any job, really. You dont get to START as the manager!)

No, i don't thing so. My best work are on exactly same level, for example. And i can work in any conditions.

So... you're saying you can work 90 hour work weeks while being abused by corporate and doing 3 seperate roles?

....sure. Sure.

I am always learning. But i am passed the point when small games will give me any valuable expirience. The thing with my profession is that i can practice without developing a game.

Honestly if this is your approach to this... and I sincerely hope it's not... then you cannot succeed in the indie realm. Or in AAA, really.

First off, having ideas isnt practice. No dev thinks that way, indie OR AAA. Having an idea AND THEN SITTING THE HECK DOWN AND MAKING IT... *that* is practice.

Like I said: If you over specialize, you wont be very flexible in fulfilling development roles. Indie devs NEED to be. Even I, lazy as I tend to be, still had to do multiple things. In my main project, I handled enemies & bosses, as I said, but that's not all I did... that's only what I MENTIONED.

In reality, I did that, I also checked and balanced every individual bloody room that the worldgen engine could use (oh geez I hated doing that), AND I handled much of the full-game balance. People actually had to go through me before adding things that could alter the balance (and that was freaking scary, I thought I'd ruin the project).

Is that ALL stuff I had wanted to do? No. I wanted to make the bullet-hell stuff. That's what I wanted to do, that's my favorite bit. And while I got to do that... well, with a small team? They need more than JUST that. So I found and filled more roles. And just as a note: I'd *never* directed anyone before. THAT was new. But that's how it goes in development: you MIGHT NEED TO FULFILL AN UNEXPECTED ROLE.

And here's the real kicker and what's gonna hurt your chances: MOST writers are also "developers". By that I mean they are capable of creating non-writing content. Many are actually programmers for... some odd reason. Seriously. I've yet to meet one, in the indie space, that ONLY does writing. Heck, some of the games with the sorts of stories that create entire fandoms were made by like one dude fulfilling 13 roles. Or a very small team with each person doing like 2 or 3 things.

And that's just indie. Go the AAA or AA route, and the role you fill... will be whatever they bloody well tell you to do.

I get that you like writing. Seriously, I do. But "I want to do this and only this" is simply not how it works most of the time (again, rare exceptions exist). There are hard truths about game development that you can either accept in advance... or find out the REALLY hard way. I ran into a couple of hard truths like a doofus in my own experience. It wasnt pretty (fortunately I fixed THAT mess).

Just giving people ideas SERIOUSLY aint gonna cut it either. No indie team (that actually knows what they're doing) will fully accept that, and even if they do at first... soon enough they're gonna want more out of you, because in their mind, THEY are doing all the work while you're just thinking, and believe me: To most, that's not fair.

Besides. Game design doesnt work that way. On a team, EVERYONE comes up with ideas. Everyone. Nobody gets to specialize in just that. Obviously there can be some exceptions, not EVERY team does that. But holy heck are you going to have trouble forming a team AT ALL with the requirements you want.

Seriously. I'm not pulling all of this out of my butt. Nor am I making this up. I've been dealing with indie devs for a LONG time, and it's not just "ideas". I'm talking direct connections, and direct creation of content (as in, I sit there and bloody well make the blasted things). And I have a rather unfortunate amount of knowledge about the AAA stuff. Kinda wish I didnt, it's not pleasant knowledge.

You have that "passion" that many lack. But if you WANT to ever actually GET there? You're gonna have to be willing to push the boundaries of what you currently do. "I just want to write" just aint gonna cut it. Instead, "I specialize in writing but I'm open to learning other roles" is the right approach.

THAT, above all else... that's the point I want to make. Those two sentences there.

Elven, maybe you should look into creating your own KickStarter and advertising at as many cons as you can beforehand and during the KickStarter itself. Find another job to hold you over in the mean time.

Just as a note: Advertising at cons is pricey. And if you're advertising at a con, you are EXPECTED to have a playable demo. If you dont, well... actually if you DONT have one, most cons wont allow you to have a booth. And even if they did... it'd be a guaranteed dud and a waste of money.

I'm just pointing this out as I'd hate to have @ElvenNeko try this only to find out the very hard way that something is missing, because that could be a nasty hit to both money AND reputation.

It IS a good idea though if you DO have something playable that people can try. Very useful.

As for kickstarters specifically... hoboy. That's a whole other bag of cats. A complicated bag where they all hiss at each other all day and freak out all the time.


*sigh* But hey, I dont make the decisions with any of this. You're right, he has to just make the decisions here, with or without the advice.

Look, @ElvenNeko , I've given you all of the info, the things you need to know, about how things really work. You can accept it, LEARN, and work WITH it... or try to fit a square peg into a round hole. Maybe you can get that peg in there if you hammer the everloving heck outta it hard enough, but... wow is THAT going to be hard.

I think at this point I've said everything there is to say. Something tells me that I've hit the point where this is going to start repeating. And this topic is almost too expansive for a mere conversation in a forum topic anyway (seriously, this has barely scratched the surface, even with all that's been said). So that's enough, I think. And there's other topics to tackle. For now, I'm out. Good luck in whatever it is you do, sir.

 

[Misery]

For me, there are not. There is always a bottleneck with asset or gameplay mechanics that i can't find to be pre-made for me. And without them nothing will work.

Oh, before I go, I want to point out this one last bit:

This here is the flaw in your attitude and view.

"I want it to be done for me".

That. That aint gonna fly. Indie teams wont take that. AAA teams wont take that. ANY team wants someone who is willing to try hard, do new things, and just do the bloody work that needs to be done.

Until you fix THAT attitude... you're stalled.

 

[ElvenNeko]

So... you're saying you can work 90 hour work weeks while being abused by corporate and doing 3 seperate roles?

If that roles suiting my skills - yes. But it won't be 3 roles since i only have two skills.
My current job is waking at 9 morning, doing boring, repetable tasks, 10 minutes break for eating, repeat until 23-00. Sleep, repeat 7 days per week. And it pay around 100$ per month (but not always, sum varies).
So having an interesting job that pays more would be a nice change. And i don't have anything else to do in my life except work anyway.

Having an idea AND THEN SITTING THE HECK DOWN AND MAKING IT... *that* is practice.

I am making it. In my mind. I am running all the possible scenarious to see how good it are, how it fits into settings, what kind of problems it may cause.

And actually implementing it into the game? That's not my job. There is people who learned programming all their life. They hired to do this. It's their job.

I know some poor teams trying to save budget by hiring one person who knows several tasks but are average at all of them (or worse) because he does not have enough time to master everything. But it's more like an exceptions. You won't see sound engineer being asked to write code or voice actor being asked to create animations in any good team. Why ask writer to program them?

Any leader who puts a non-specialist to do the task that requires a specialist is setting up the entire team to fail. And what's good in aaa - they usually don't lack any specialists.

But "I want to do this and only this" is simply not how it works most of the time

You seem to be unable to understand the difference between "want" and "can". I wonder why people are so lacking empathy when it comes to mental issues... they usually do not ask man with no legs why he can't run. But if it's something they can't see - it instantly becomes "if i can do this, so can you".

 

[Misery]

If that roles suiting my skills - yes. But it won't be 3 roles since i only have two skills.

Dude, with the AAA stuff, that would be a corporate-owned job. Your role would be whatever they bloody well tell you to do even if they hired you originally for something else. It's a freaking JOB! OF COURSE that's how it works! Particularly in an extremely abusive industry. And you can say "oh but they have specialists" and yes, they do. Specialists who ALREADY DID THE GRUNT WORK to get to that position... and specialists who STILL have to do things they dont want to do on a fairly regular basis. Being a "specialist" doesnt grant you the magical ability to avoid having to do things you dont want to in a freaking JOB!

And dont even tell me "oh I can handle 90 hours of freaking crunch plus all that abuse" when you arent even willing to learn small roles to make it easier to fit in with a small indie group OR a big AAA group, and when you think that "running it through your head" is a replacement for real work and practice/training. That's ridiculous.

You seem to be unable to understand the difference between "want" and "can".

Actually no, I can indeed tell the difference. However, I'm thinking that YOU havent at all grasped what I meant when I talked about "want" and "can".

It's not a matter of "oh I cant program ever, I cant learn that, it's impossible". You can clearly interact with a computer. If you wanted to learn to program, you COULD. It's just that you dont *want* to. There's a HUGE difference. And this goes for all the other development-related skills, programming is just an example. You CAN do them. You CAN learn them. But you dont WANT to. Big... BIG difference... whether you admit it to yourself or not.

However, the fact that I have to explain that here says that you missed at least 75% of what I was saying. Which proves that this conversation has no further purpose.

Also the "man with no legs" analogy SERIOUSLY doesnt work here. Let me show you something:

Look. This guy doesnt have legs. He doesnt have arms.

He still plays that game he loves on a GLOBAL LEVEL. I've watched him play, his skill level is insane... and that's WITHOUT considering his handicap. He got to that point because he refused to say "I cant". He REFUSED. He never... ever... gave up. And he kept learning, doing, and trying difficult things until he got to where he wanted to be. He didnt sit around "running it through his head". He DID THE BLOODY WORK. And it paid off for him. The guy is a major inspiration to many.

So dont you tell me that you "cant". You can. You have it in you to do these things. You just dont WANT to. Well, development, like ANY job, involves doing some stuff you dont WANT to do.

You may not LIKE the way development works, and that's fine. But like I said: it aint changing, and some aspects (AAA) are getting worse. And until you can fix that "oh I want everyone to do the work, I only want to do the fun part" attitude, your progress really is going to stay frozen.

Anyway. This conversation is over, as I think I said earlier. The stuff I'm saying is only going to keep repeating, and I dont like repeating. I've said everything that needs to be said. And I really do have other things to do.

Now, I'm done here. I wont reply further beyond this, nor am I going to read anything else that appears in this thread. I bid you a good day, sir.

 

[ElvenNeko]

Your role would be whatever they bloody well tell you to do even if they hired you originally for something else.

I am pretty sure that's not how jobs work. Even corporate ones. Or show me the top manager who are cleaning the office because there is lack of cleaners, or actress who are filming the movie because there is no camera man, or receptionist who performing an operation because there is no doctor, or secretary who designing new building because there are no architect.

I am even pretty sure that there is a law exists that forbids employer to force employee to do things he wasn't hired for.

I am looking at all the position Chris Avellone had in gamedev, and i don't see him mentioned even once for anything but game design and writing. And i am pretty sure that Drew Kapryshyn, Brian Mitsoda, John Gonzalez, Walt Williams or any other great writer i know were not asked to code gameplay mechanics or create 3d models just because there is lack of staff.

If you wanted to learn to program, you COULD.

I tried learning it for two years before giving up. Starting from htm and ending on something else, probably some c-language, i forgot because i do not remember single line of code either. That's how my brain works. I can't remember things. I would have to re-learn everything every single day, reading manual over and over again. Hell, i could not even grasp the school math, geometry and other persice things. I do not understand them. And yes, i also do not like them because i do not understand them.

If i can't do the same work as other writers in the indusry, if i am sowheat inferor to them because of my disabilities, that's fine. I can live without job. Will be easy to end it all when the time comes. But i am asking for one thing, and you explaining me how to get thing i do not want at all.