Agreed. Though some of us may consider being fully present in small talk to be a contradiction in terms.
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Unintentional Patronising
- Thread starter thejuice
- Start date
Maybe l mask being present, who truly knows?Agreed. Though some of us may consider being fully present in small talk to be a contradiction in terms.
It's hard to tell the issue based on the transcription. I can see how both of you could have felt bad after the exchange, but at the same time nothing seems wrong or off. It all depends on the tone of voice.
I know sometimes I offend people not because of the words but because of the tone. Sometimes I can fix it because I catch it on my own 3 seconds after opening my mouth. Sometimes I can tell by the reaction of the other person that I said something that was misinterpreted. Usually I fix it by saying something like "oh, sorry, that came out wrong. I meant xyz."
Don't stop trying though. It could be that the other person meant nothing by the yeah obviously. Or you could ask the other person if you offended them.
Or which one doesn't bite you ;-)
Lol!
Yeah, I apparently come off this way unless I'm just nerding out with someone else who does the same thing. Sometimes even my very positive excitement gets mistaken for hostility or microagressions. I don't get it, but this definitely doesn't seem to be a thing when I'm just grooving with someone who's on my wavelength.
Just out of curiosity, would you consider yourself to be a high-energy person?
This has always been a major problem for me. I know I can be dense about things, but still it seems that some things are so obvious as to be plain to all. Or, how could they function without knowing such and such.
Perhaps I was regularly chosen by employers to teach others because I have that teacher’s voice they’re talking about. But I learned not to assume that people draw the rational conclusions, and not to assume they draw any conclusion at all. The style I developed served me well over the years… in the workplace.
Another problem I have is that I don’t change with the situation; I develop a speaking pattern and that’s who I am. It changes veery slowly. So, what I carefully developed at work came into my home life. I had no idea people have different patterns for different parts of their day. Imagine my surprise.
Assessing what level of information the other person in a conversation can understand is an essential skill in communication. The faster and more accurately you can do it the better.
I think it has a formal name among specialists who study stuff like that.
IMO it's a characteristic of ASD that we all have a deficit in this area.
FWIW it's literally what I had in mind when I made posts #16 and #18 for @thejuice
* Testing with scenarios are a way to augment whatever native skill someone has in this area. It's a quick way to contextualize, but it takes quite a lot of practice to build up a set of "patterns" to test with. I think NTs do this as children.
* Tracking how people open and/or frame a statement is a technique that can be used in the same space, but it addresses a slightly different aspect.
@The Pandector
Teaching doesn't induce "reflexive pushback" for the same reason young children accept input from adults they know and trust. It's most a one-way flow of information from "more knowledge" to "less knowledge".
The threshold for being considered "patronizing" is much higher.
IMO Aspies are relatively good at teaching, especially technical subjects. I recognize the approach you describe in your post - IMO it leads to significantly better results.
I think it has a formal name among specialists who study stuff like that.
IMO it's a characteristic of ASD that we all have a deficit in this area.
FWIW it's literally what I had in mind when I made posts #16 and #18 for @thejuice
* Testing with scenarios are a way to augment whatever native skill someone has in this area. It's a quick way to contextualize, but it takes quite a lot of practice to build up a set of "patterns" to test with. I think NTs do this as children.
* Tracking how people open and/or frame a statement is a technique that can be used in the same space, but it addresses a slightly different aspect.
@The Pandector
Teaching doesn't induce "reflexive pushback" for the same reason young children accept input from adults they know and trust. It's most a one-way flow of information from "more knowledge" to "less knowledge".
The threshold for being considered "patronizing" is much higher.
IMO Aspies are relatively good at teaching, especially technical subjects. I recognize the approach you describe in your post - IMO it leads to significantly better results.
In the mind probably, not in the body though. Im very anxious and uptight inside.
Unfortunately for me who is prone to a faux pas, people are quicker to take offense and it can be a power play given the general social climate. (but not in this situation, she probably was genuinely slightly irritated)
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The usual example for the first bit is lowering the complexity/depth of what you say when talking to a child.
You have to make a judgement about what they already know, and their analytical skills.
It's called "negative feedback" in tech, but I think it's something else in the human-centric sciences concerned with language and knowledge.
It's quite complex, especially with another adult. It's often harder than structuring the idea and/or the information you want to convey in your own words.
The second section is mostly a complement to part of the earlier post, but with the "negative feedback" skill integrated. For me, the earlier question I suggested you use
"What was the discussion immediately before your comment actually about?"
Is relevant in a similar way to the "negative feedback" idea - but from the other side, but applied to yourself. What am I understanding by what is said, and does it match what the other person understands by it?
The last part (for Pandector) maps those ideas onto the relationship between teacher and (willing) students.
The knowledge gap between teacher and students is so big that the students must trust the teacher to control the discussion, and the teacher's side of the "what should I say so they can they understand" analysis is actually easier.
IMO this gives us an advantage when teaching technical topics that more than compensates for most characteristic Aspie deficits.
Of course unsuitable or deliberately disruptive students can mess this up. But that's another discussion.
BTW: This is probably one of my "special interests", and it's definitely part of the way I handle communication with NT's, and how I manage "masking". So sorry/not sorry if I'm "over-explaining" or "scope-creeping" ... but you can tell me to shut up with a clear conscience - you won't be the first
You have to make a judgement about what they already know, and their analytical skills.
It's called "negative feedback" in tech, but I think it's something else in the human-centric sciences concerned with language and knowledge.
It's quite complex, especially with another adult. It's often harder than structuring the idea and/or the information you want to convey in your own words.
The second section is mostly a complement to part of the earlier post, but with the "negative feedback" skill integrated. For me, the earlier question I suggested you use
"What was the discussion immediately before your comment actually about?"
Is relevant in a similar way to the "negative feedback" idea - but from the other side, but applied to yourself. What am I understanding by what is said, and does it match what the other person understands by it?
The last part (for Pandector) maps those ideas onto the relationship between teacher and (willing) students.
The knowledge gap between teacher and students is so big that the students must trust the teacher to control the discussion, and the teacher's side of the "what should I say so they can they understand" analysis is actually easier.
IMO this gives us an advantage when teaching technical topics that more than compensates for most characteristic Aspie deficits.
Of course unsuitable or deliberately disruptive students can mess this up. But that's another discussion.
BTW: This is probably one of my "special interests", and it's definitely part of the way I handle communication with NT's, and how I manage "masking". So sorry/not sorry if I'm "over-explaining" or "scope-creeping" ... but you can tell me to shut up with a clear conscience - you won't be the first
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Yes, and I always come across as arrogant or rude. Here's when it happens:
When someone approaches a new hobby or experiences something I've been through, I share my knowledge and mistakes to prevent them from going through the same troubles, either for conversation or to save them money and frustration. However, I end up being perceived as a "teacher" and show-off.
It also happens when I meet new people with shared interests or professions:
Two instances occurred during a meal where I engaged in conversation with a newly met psychologist and philosophy enthusiast. Given my keen interest in the human mind and behavior, we discussed various theories. After a while, I shared my theory called "Social Game Theory" (essentially the theory of strings interpreted in a humanistic way). Mixing various study disciplines is another interest of mine because I enjoy finding similarities amid diversity. In fact, relying on the concept of "similar but different" in the rationality of physics, mathematics, and informatics applied to human relationships helps me understand others. It's not foolproof, but it forms the foundation for me.
Returning to the topic, I wanted to converse and hear what someone in the field thought about my ideas, whether they found validity in them or if they were baseless. Unfortunately, I was perceived as arrogant and presumptuous. The same happened during the SAME meal with a girl finishing her thesis on the history of mathematics – an area I love. I thought it was a great opportunity for conversation, but it wasn't seen that way. In conclusion: people have fragile egos; when confronted with things beyond their understanding, they get defensive. Instead of seeking knowledge and evolving, they prefer defending themselves and " girare la frittata ," as we say in Italian. The inferiority complex is widespread, explaining our current state, with people engaging in power games everywhere, at the cost of self-destruction and spreading death and destruction.
When someone approaches a new hobby or experiences something I've been through, I share my knowledge and mistakes to prevent them from going through the same troubles, either for conversation or to save them money and frustration. However, I end up being perceived as a "teacher" and show-off.
It also happens when I meet new people with shared interests or professions:
Two instances occurred during a meal where I engaged in conversation with a newly met psychologist and philosophy enthusiast. Given my keen interest in the human mind and behavior, we discussed various theories. After a while, I shared my theory called "Social Game Theory" (essentially the theory of strings interpreted in a humanistic way). Mixing various study disciplines is another interest of mine because I enjoy finding similarities amid diversity. In fact, relying on the concept of "similar but different" in the rationality of physics, mathematics, and informatics applied to human relationships helps me understand others. It's not foolproof, but it forms the foundation for me.
Returning to the topic, I wanted to converse and hear what someone in the field thought about my ideas, whether they found validity in them or if they were baseless. Unfortunately, I was perceived as arrogant and presumptuous. The same happened during the SAME meal with a girl finishing her thesis on the history of mathematics – an area I love. I thought it was a great opportunity for conversation, but it wasn't seen that way. In conclusion: people have fragile egos; when confronted with things beyond their understanding, they get defensive. Instead of seeking knowledge and evolving, they prefer defending themselves and " girare la frittata ," as we say in Italian. The inferiority complex is widespread, explaining our current state, with people engaging in power games everywhere, at the cost of self-destruction and spreading death and destruction.
Better results for me. Both in the technical workplace and in the church, there is a common aversion to revealing your level of understanding unless you feel you are above average. Which builds a wall hard to hurdle for a social catastrophe like me. With an open student and just a few questions, it’s pretty easy to deduce knowledge and experience. So I would pin the tail on the least common denominator and spiral-method as high as they needed to go.
‘Reflexive pushback.’ I like that.
Turning the omelette that's a good one!
Some people just want their place in the social hierarchy 'Up Armoured' rather than risking vulnerability and maybe learning something. Like you inferred, pride comes before a fall.
I've found that with doctors, if I share anything about my personal experience or something that helped me get well which might not ally with their textbooks or practice, they are NOT interested one bit. The Doctor patient relationship is a very rigid authority/ subordinate dynamic. I guess they earned it and they haven't the time but still I like to think everyone has something you can learn from.
Some people just want their place in the social hierarchy 'Up Armoured' rather than risking vulnerability and maybe learning something. Like you inferred, pride comes before a fall.
I've found that with doctors, if I share anything about my personal experience or something that helped me get well which might not ally with their textbooks or practice, they are NOT interested one bit. The Doctor patient relationship is a very rigid authority/ subordinate dynamic. I guess they earned it and they haven't the time but still I like to think everyone has something you can learn from.
If you do this "all the time", even if it's unintentional, then it's on the individual himself/herself to socially improve. If it's once in awhile only, people who know you well enough will let you know 1-1 or will know how to take you. Some might walk away or try to change the topic.
I believe that the theme of social hierarchies is something truly fascinating. Everything around us is a fractal, and society is no exception. I had formulated a theory on this topic and even painted it in the end— "social gravity." I've written other theories, but I haven't painted them yet.
I find it absurd and hypocritical how the phrase "never stop learning" is widespread, but when confronted with something new, people often avoid or hide behind their social position in society just to end the discussion and save face.
In the end, can we blame them? We are in a society that demands you know everything but doesn't allow the humility to learn or ask for help. It's paradoxical! You're not allowed to make mistakes, but you must learn from them.
Perfection doesn't exist, yet perfectionism is mandatory. Even though as humans, we have no idea what perfection is, it's a convenient canon that changes from day to day. It thrives on what's trendy and economically beneficial, especially if it makes 95% of the population feel insecure. The higher the bar is set, the more you know no one will reach it, yet everything is done to make it seem otherwise, with false promises and mirages.
The human being is strange but fascinating, and when I think about it, it scares me. We are truly twisted creatures.
Well I've decided I'm going to keep trying and slowly improve as progress is not a straight line upwards. I'm having the balls to just make myself more vulnerable, open to conversation and approaching people. Also I've volunteered so Im around more people. I've gotten a bit rusty.
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