Unexplained events and mysteries

[Cyber]

Recognize him?

View attachment 144777

who is your dad?

A lot of interesting connections between Von Braun and the secret projects in Area 51 and Groom Lake.

 

[Cyber]

old story of extremists and their propensity to so easily "throw their own under the bus". Which to this day has a peculiarly familiar ring to it.

Yes interesting resonance with trump's treatment of his own associates over the years. Did you know 90% of German concentration camp prison guards, Gestapo and members of the SS including death squads and foreign militia were never prosecuted. Many became immigrants and regular folks living in various countries, neighbours oblivious to their past. Von Braun was known to have worked slave labour to death and used live prisoners to test his rockets. His children and grandchildren have tried to defend his legacy, not unlike Rolf Mengele (Dr Joseph Mengele's son who regularly visited his depraved father). One strange twist of fate was mass murdering SS Commandant Amon Goth. Goth's daughter had a love child with an African man in the 1950s. the child (Jennifer Teege) was adopted and she didn't find out who her grandfather was till late in her life. Imagine her shock when she found out that her grandfather would have probably murdered her if he was alive (Amon Goth was executed in Poland in 1946 for his war crimes.)

 

[Hypnalis]

Wikipedia, quoting the US FBI's investigation into Werner von Braun:

Overall FBI conclusions point to von Braun's involvement in the Nazi Party to be purely for the advancement of his academic career, or out of fear of imprisonment or execution.

von Braun lived in a country that was legally governed by the NSDAP. Along with everyone else in the entire country, and countries that were taken over before the "shooting war" started. (Notably Austria - Nazi Austria comes up here from time to time for the same reason as von Braun.

His skills were extremely attractive to the Nazi's because he was extremely skilled in an area that was directly relevant to weapons development.

He couldn't avoid the Nazis. And the FBI concluded he was not engaged in any of the "bad stuff" the Nazis did.

BTW - it's natural that he was involved in the development of US weapons (like ICBMs) and/or the US military's private space program.
The guy was a top-tier rocket scientist - it would be strange if he wasn't involved.

 

[Cyber]

My dad watched documentaries on the war when we were kids as he was taken off street as teenager forced labour, wanted to know what happened, This got me interested, books every thing. Worse part wife is German descent seventh generation. carries the guilt her people could have done this Even through she is half English. .

She shouldn't feel responsible for other people's actions. I went through a phase when I wanted to learn Old English (Auld englisc) and was shocked how similar old English was to German. there are is a linguistic puritanical movement of people who speak "Anglish" which is a form of modern English with no non-German words.

English

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Anglish

"We the Folk of the Foroned Riches, to make a more flawless oneship, build rightness, bring frith and stillness to our land, shield one another, uphold the overall welfare, and hold fast the Blessings of Freedom to ourselves and our offspring, do foresay and lay down this lawbook for the foroned riches of Americksland."

 

[Cyber]

BTW - it's natural that he was involved in the development of US weapons (like ICBMs) and/or the US military's private space program.
The guy was a top-tier rocket scientist - it would be strange if he wasn't involved.

Putting aside his past, Von Braun maybe one of the most influential scientists of the 20th century.

 

[Judge]

Putting aside his past, Von Braun maybe one of the most influential scientists of the 20th century.

I would tend to agree, though I always wondered about his peers from Peenemünde who became his counterparts in both the Cold War and the Space Race whose efforts paralleled those of Von Braun.

The Soviets kept quite a "lid" on the history of their space program in comparison. Not only with their technical staff, but the cosmonauts themselves.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

The first rocket guy was American, The germans have a very dicinplined culture then and now. which gives them an edge. A lot of the best scientists were german especially in physics. America is full of the German DIaspora. like my wifes family.

 

[Judge]

The first rocket guy was American, The germans have a very dicinplined culture then and now. which gives them an edge. A lot of the best scientists were german especially in physics. America is full of the German DIaspora. like my wifes family.

Dr. Robert Goddard's scientific contribution to solid-fuel rocketry is a matter of historical note, but pales in the shadow of Wernher Von Braun. Goddard was a pioneer of rocketry, but it was Von Braun's efforts with liquid-fueled propellants that got us to the moon.

Ironic to think that during the war that our physicists could split the atom, yet couldn't get past using solid-fueled propellants with limited results.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Just noticed this on German, I like tractors.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Oppenhiemer got his physics education in Germany. Never count out the Germans.

 

[Judge]

Von Braun's connection to the SS was honorary, and more to the point not solicited by himself at any given time. In a police state which demanded at least an appearance of absolute loyalty so he could further his scientific advances unfettered both financially and politically. That much is true.

That ultimately it was political expediency that determined so many of our wartime enemies technically culpable over activities not be legally prosecuted, but to be exploited in the name of national security. All prioritized by the perception of an oncoming Cold War against communism. Which was heartily endorsed by not only personalities like Allan Dulles (CIA), but particularly the FBI's J. Edgar Hoover. And it worked. No surprise that Von Braun's contributions remained within the Dept. of Defense for some time before any thoughts of NASA and manned spaceflight.

There were any number of Germans whose "talents" were used by the Americans with priority over their skills as opposed to the results they achieved against the Allies during the war. Personalities like Claus Barbi, Reinhard Gehlen, Wernher Von Braun, and many others were all going to ultimately get a "clean bill of health" whether temporary or not.

All to meet so many demands of an ensuing Cold War against not only the Soviet Union, but international communism. As for the pursuit of purely scientific achievement, that came later.

 

[Judge]

Oppenheimer got his physics education in Germany. Never count out the Germans.

Another irony. Nobel Prize Winner Werner Heissenberg was never a Nazi. Not even ceremoniously speaking. Whose personal sense of ethics was well known. Who despite his intellect and abilities, never managed to produce an atomic weapon for the Third Reich.

A personal choice, or matter of logistical circumstances? History will always debate that.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Another irony. Nobel Prize Winner Werner Heissenberg was never a Nazi. Not even ceremoniously speaking. Whose personal sense of ethics was well known. Who despite his intellect and abilities, never managed to produce an atomic weapon for the Third Reich.

A personal choice, or matter of logistical circumstances? History will always debate that.

Strange guy, really liked German culture very patriotic, not Nazi.

 

[Cyber]

Von Braun's connection to the SS was honorary, and more to the point not solicited by himself at any given time. In a police state which demanded at least an appearance of absolute loyalty so he could further his scientific advances unfettered both financially and politically. That much is true.

 

[Cyber]

Von Braun was tasked with developing the V2 rocket under immense pressure to meet wartime deadlines. I suspect like the brilliant German architect Albert Speer he wasn't a psychopath to begin with. I imagine to meet deadlines and curry favour with Mein Fuhrer he took advantage of slave labour from concentration camps. Accounts suggest he was not averse to working them to death and possibly using prisoners as live test subjects or working under hazardous conditions. Pathological narcissism might have made him cold and distant to the suffering his research was creating. He probably never pulled a trigger or hit anyone but I am sure he saw how prisoners fared under his orders.

Is or was Von Braun evil? probably yes but not on a level of Joseph Mengele. Perhaps lowkey any mention of his name on awards or buildings should be quietly taken down.

 

[Hypnalis]

Nobel Prize Winner Werner Heisenberg was never a Nazi.

Germany was never going to build a fission bomb, so they never "put a gun to his head" and "offered" membership.
If they thought they could build atomic weapons it would have been a different story.

It became nearly impossible to say "no" to the Nazis well before 1939. They didn't turn bad during the war - they just "scaled up" in scope and "bad behavior".

Quoted from Cyber's post above:
Is or was Von Braun evil? probably yes ...

IMO the people who actually participated in their worst activities deserved to be prosecuted (all the way up the hierarchy too).

But the others?

Disobeying the Nazis wasn't a small matter.
And a credible threat to not just the target's life, but also their whole family's has always been effective, and continues to be so.

I think the weapons scientists deserved a free pass.
Punishing people who make tools or objects that could be used to do evil things is an extremely slippery slope.

For a start it would make following the principle "Si vis pacem, para bellum" impossible.
And in modern times, what about potentially lethal objects?. Vehicles? Baseball bats? Hand tools ? Meter-long scraps of rebar? Glass objects?

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

In another thread I menchioned some one had reached out to my wife and I. as having been adopted looking for her birth parents unusual cercumstances to her adoption. Looks like we have sorted it out. My wife is related to her via DNA, however so am I. Looks like her bio parents are cousins The Doctor who delivered her is also related to me via another Ronald Zeeman, Suspect her bio parents came from a prominent family Doctor and wife were childless, so she waas adopted so called under the table no paper work. Interestingy she is professionally a detective working for another state sorting this out for herself. Had fun with this puzzle happy to have been able to help Found out wife and I are distantly related. PLus found out who the other Ronald Zeeman was, a day and year younger than me passed away last year.

 

[Judge]

Germany was never going to build a fission bomb, so they never "put a gun to his head" and "offered" membership.
If they thought they could build atomic weapons it would have been a different story.

Heissenberg appeared out of conviction not to create the bomb, and somehow the Nazis never caught onto him and his scientific peer group. Though it was never "proven" per se. Von Braun however, was quite effective at delivering what the Nazis wanted. Much to the detriment of Londoners. With or without an honorary but official rank of colonel in the SS. Quite a contrast.

It became nearly impossible to say "no" to the Nazis well before 1939.

I disagree. When Hitler chose to violate the Treaty of Versailles and re-militarize the Rheinland in 1936, the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht had a contingency plan to bolt back across the river in the event the French chose to use their military might (at the time). That the whole operation amounted to a political bluff on the German Army's part. Nowhere near ready to sustain an occupation of the Rheinland through military force alone.

Something personalities like General Walter Warlimont spoke of in interviews well after the war. He truly thought the Allies could have kicked their asses had they been inclined to do so. Ironically he was yet another German who was imprisoned up to 1954 given his culpability serving in the OKW.

Such a setback could have had profound consequences for Hitler's agenda of aggressive war, had the Allies kept the heat on Hitler and closely monitored any attempt the Nazis made at so many treaty violations so early into the 1930s. If the Allies really wanted to, they could have emasculated Hitler's public plans for global conquest. However in as much as France won the First World War, it killed their national morale and will to wage another one. So with the exception of Winston Churchill, they chose "peace in their time" as Neville Chamberlain proclaimed while they gave away territories in an attempt to pacify Hitler with a mere perception of peace called the "Munich Agreement" of 1938.

Von Braun made rockets as weapons of war. Warlimont made policy that was war. Yet only one of them was prosecuted and imprisoned. Both were "following orders" below a criminal chain of command.

I think the weapons scientists deserved a free pass.
Punishing people who make tools or objects that could be used to do evil things is an extremely slippery slope.

I personally never implied that Von Braun should have been prosecuted. Though I also think it's important historically for people to be fully aware of his advances in science, not only in sending men to the moon, but for developing weapons which killed thousands of Londoners in 1944. Yet despite such considerations, our government never had any intent to prosecute them, but to turn them over the DOD for weapons development. And to recall how the immediate postwar press and popular sentiment putting pressure on the government to prosecute him.

Luckily for Von Braun, the administration was keenly aware of a public who had a notoriously short memory given the distractions and perceived threats of communism brought on by an oncoming Cold War. Government gave them that "free pass" and then the American people lost interest altogether.

Anyone who studies US Constitutional Law understands the precedents of how civil law can potentially be towards a weapons manufacturer, while criminal law systematically absolves them. Or even how a person in an extraterritorial criminal court (Nuremberg 1946) could be sentenced to death for crimes against humanity, having never killed anyone, but published a magazine preaching overt anti-antisemitic hatred. (Julius Streicher)

No- it's not about Von Braun's culpability per se, but rather the ethical implications and inconsistencies of our own country in harnessing such skills and ignoring other considerations of possible criminal culpability to enhance our own national security that I question:

- The inconsistency of how government can capriciously ignore its own standards of justice.

Which in itself produces an unintentional moral quandary over what seems to constitute acceptable versus unacceptable homicide. And how we prosecute some to death while rewarding others with life. Worse perhaps, when such individuals form both Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan who were prosecuted, sentenced to death and then later not only commuted their sentences, but were given their freedom.

And then to consider how our government shamelessly opted to political expediency to use some of such personalities like Von Braun, Reinhard Gehlen and Klaus Barbi as just a few of such examples. Ironic that the name Hans Asperger wasn't included. But then his research had no implications regarding national security. Whether actual crimes were committed on his part remains a mystery with this community still arguing over his legacy.

@Hypnalis, this is not simply whether Von Braun had any prosecutable culpability in killing British civilians, but a far broader concern of how our own government is so prone to using people who may or may not be so easily subject to criminal or civil violations of law. Making a mockery of capital offenses. That personalities like Von Braun were just a link in a chain of questionable decisions all favoring a nebulous sense of national security. And how inconsistent our instruments of justice were after the war being overwhelmingly subject to political expediency that sometimes seems to rival the writings of Niccolò Machiavelli.

This isn't any "black and white" proclamation of what defines criminal culpability. I am only bringing up such issues given their inherent need for a clarification of legal consistency and to avoid a continual sense of national hypocrisy.

And hopefully reduce disputes over personalities like Wernher Von Braun or Dr. Hans Asperger.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Wow many here know as much about the war as II do, not really a special interest dad was into it having lived it I followed it watching him follow it.

 

[Judge]

Wow many here know as much about the war as II do, not really a special interest dad was into it having lived it I followed it watching him follow it.

It's literally part of my university degree. Beyond what I'd call a "special interest". My father also lived it, and that his surviving the war facilitated my existence some 11 years later.

My father was told (not asked) that his entire graduating class (1946) finish their service academy education not in the prescribed four years, but a year early because of the demands of needing new officers during the Second World War. Without their curriculum taking any shortcuts. (OMG)

Sadly moments after my father's graduating class tossed their caps into the air on the US Naval Academy's playing field, many like my father were off to train for "Operation Olympic". Better known as the invasion of Japan. In which my father might well have been slaughtered in the first wave of that planned invasion as many historians have suggested over the years. That he may have quite literally been saved by the atomic bombing of Japan only two months later.

Ironically his unexpected appointment to the Naval Academy permanently sidelined his enlistment into the Army Air Corps at the time, where he very well may have later been killed as a bomber pilot.

Making it a bit awkward to ask me of the moral/ethical implications of atomic weapons which saved countless American lives while taking countless Japanese lives.