Tried to give up but I just can’t

[Wizardry]

It sounds like you're trying to justify your lack of success. While that may help your self-esteem, I think focusing on the past and other external factors is harmful. I see @Markness and others frequently discouraged when they focus on the past and all the disadvantages they perceive because of it. I find it more helpful to focus on things that are within my power to change. I've noticed that people who think this way tend to be more successful in life while those who attribute their problems to external factors outside their control tend to feel helpless and much less successful.

Do you think the factors I've cited as having influenced my lack of success are trivial, or do you think someone with those disadvantages is more likely to genuinely have a harder time with dating?

If the former, then I'm sorry, but I can only assume your personal responsibility free will mindset has you minimising the reality of the effects of inequality of opportunity and disadvantaged starting positions.

If the latter, don't you think it's important to identify why dating has been hard in order to figure out how to work around those disadvantages?

There's a difference between ruminating about things that happened in the past unproductively, and making sense of the past in a way that offers clarity about why things went wrong then, and what is required for present and future success.

If these disadvantages are pertinent, pretending that they don't exist and trying to make an effort anyway is not likely to yield any better results than the past did.

You're willing to acknowledge that 2-3 out of 10 men going for 7 out of 10 women likely won't get their desired results. Those men are disadvantaged relative to men of a higher level of overall attractiveness, and you think it's important for them to acknowledge where they stand in order to know what to work on to get the results they want. Is disadvantage only real and worth acknowledging when you perceive it's self-inflicted, or when one has the agency to effectively overcome it on their own?

 

[Matthias]

Do you think the factors I've cited as having influenced my lack of success are trivial, or do you think someone with those disadvantages is more likely to genuinely have a harder time with dating?

It's definitely harder.

If the former, then I'm sorry, but I can only assume your personal responsibility free will mindset has you minimising the reality of the effects of inequality of opportunity and disadvantaged starting positions.

If the latter, don't you think it's important to identify why dating has been hard in order to figure out how to work around those disadvantages?

Yes. Understanding the reason for one's problems is the first step to overcoming them.

There's a difference between ruminating about things that happened in the past unproductively, and making sense of the past in a way that offers clarity about why things went wrong then, and what is required for present and future success.

If these disadvantages are pertinent, pretending that they don't exist and trying to make an effort anyway is not likely to yield any better results than the past did.

You're willing to acknowledge that 2-3 out of 10 men going for 7 out of 10 women likely won't get their desired results. Those men are disadvantaged relative to men of a higher level of overall attractiveness, and you think it's important for them to acknowledge where they stand in order to know what to work on to get the results they want. Is disadvantage only real and worth acknowledging when you perceive it's self-inflicted, or when one has the agency to effectively overcome it on their own?

I think it's great that you're trying to understand what happened and taking action to improve yourself. I wish I saw it more often. Unfortunately, I often see people embrace a victim mentality, blaming everyone but themselves for their problems and taking no responsibility to solve them. When they talk, all I hear is various versions of "Woe is me! I'm a (helpless) victim." When others who were in their situation give them good advice, they misinterpret it as a personal attack and quickly reject it, telling themselves no one understands them.

I like to see things from a balanced perspective. Below is how I see things (regarding problems in general - not specifically referring to you or problems with dating):
One extreme - Your problems are entirely self-inflicted. You caused them and it's your responsibility to fix them
The other extreme - You're just a product of your environment. Everyone else is responsible for your situation.
My opinion - Other people put you in this situation but it's up to you to fix it.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

This isn't true, because you confuse attention with love from what I understand.

If women were guaranteed love for simply existing: there would be no abused women, no neglected daughters, women would not find themselves trapped in violent relationships because they are afraid of being alone (or afraid to leave because they can be punished for that), older women would not be abandoned by their partners and families, disabled, mentally ill, or unattractive women would not be completely invisible. Many women suffer from loneliness, sadness, eating disorders or low self-worth.

Just because someone craves you sexually, stares at you, or finds you useful doesn't mean you're loved, respected or cared for... Women are not unconditionally loved. Many women get a lot of attention while being unsafe, unheard, dismissed or disposable. When there is no love, attention becomes a huge risk and it is extremely scary.

I do understand why this belief feels comforting. It turns male loneliness into a story where someone else is unfairly advantaged, instead of something complex and painful that doesn't have an easy villain.
It is not wrong for men to talk about being lonely and many of you do suffer a lot. But pointing fingers at women while pretending they're "guaranteed love" doesn't help anyone.

well it feels that way because women don't have to do the approaching and pursuing, courting

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

If there's an equal number of men and women in a community, the number of men who are alone generally has to be equal to the number of women who are alone. The only way I can see that not being true is if there's a much higher number of women who are only interested in woman or a significant percentage of men are dating more than one woman at a time, both of which seem unlikely to me.

also i'm open to believing that women are less vocal about their loneliness than men are

 

[Markness]

If I could summarize my struggles in establishing a romantic relationship, the biggest factors would be:

1) I am socially isolated and an outsider in the culture I live in. The fact I was bullied by others and still have to deal with a control freak mother does not help at all.

2) Even when I talk to others who share the same interests, the conversations still fizzle out and sometimes the other person will ghost me even if it looks like there are no issues.

3) My lack of a college degree and working only part-time at my age (37) tends to stigmatize me.

4) I have specific health issues that might make me be considered unattractive. (Metabolic syndrome and double chin.)

5) I still have problems with social anxiety, my executive function, and nightmares that mess up my headspace.

 

[Markness]

I’ve sometimes been asked if I want a relationship to appease my parents or to give them grandchildren. The reality is that my parents didn’t even want to be parents themselves but has children anyway and they actually discouraged my siblings and I from ever giving them grandchildren. Well, they only got that wish to come true for me. I don’t care about appeasing my parents, I’d rather they stay out of my way.

 

[Markness]

It sounds like you're trying to justify your lack of success. While that may help your self-esteem, I think focusing on the past and other external factors is harmful. I see @Markness and others frequently discouraged when they focus on the past and all the disadvantages they perceive because of it. I find it more helpful to focus on things that are within my power to change. I've noticed that people who think this way tend to be more successful in life while those who attribute their problems to external factors outside their control tend to feel helpless and much less successful.

But what can I really change, though? My struggles aren’t exactly the easiest to manage and without a script, I really don’t know what to do.

I’ve actually had someone get hostile at me for being an adult but not knowing what to do. This person also got hostile for showing empathy to them. However, when I’ve brought up this scenario to other people, they say that it was odd how that person got angry at me.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

it reminds me that over the years, sometimes i envy and am very jealous of other species of animals, their mating dance or courtship ritual looks a lot more simple and straight to the point, they just get on with it right away, than compared to humans.

 

[thejuice]

I think the social role of being the pursuer rather than the pursued isn't arbitrarily assigned, perhaps it became the norm as an unconcious way to test a male's suitability to be a provider and a good partner.
I.e. are his social skills desirable, is he courageous enough to risk rejection, is he a problem solver (to overcome any tests or figure out subtle gameplaying, is he calm under pressure), is he emotionally stable and secure enough to handle rejections and playful banter, is he witty and funny (intelligence test), can he outcompete other males, how confident is he, picking up non verbal cues of women might be a clue that he would be well liked and respected generally.

All of this is bad news for male autistics without anything to counterbalance our social deficit.

Just a thought, I don't know! Perhaps it's all a bit outdated now and new norms need to be established. Some females do buck the trend.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

I think the social role of being the pursuer rather than the pursued isn't arbitrarily assigned, perhaps it became the norm as an unconcious way to test a male's suitability to be a provider and a good partner.
I.e. are his social skills desirable, is he courageous enough to risk rejection, is he a problem solver (to overcome any tests or figure out subtle gameplaying, is he calm under pressure), is he emotionally stable and secure enough to handle rejections and playful banter, is he witty and funny (intelligence test), can he outcompete other males, how confident is he?

All of this is bad news for male autistics without anything to counterbalance our social deficit.

Just a thought, I don't know! Perhaps it's all a bit outdated now and new norms need to be established.

i've long heard this argument, people and society view this reason as to why guys, men, are perceived as weak for not approaching, women know that men have to risk potential rejection by walking over and talking to them, and women feel that if a man is unable to handle being rejected by her, how will he then be able to handle other rough things the world will throw his way?

I will admit, there was a time in my life i started to show some acceptence towards it, but a failed unsatisying relationship added fuel to fire towards my resentment towards it, or it just re-awoken the resentment, exasperated the situation.

 

[thejuice]

I know it sucks, I don't call it weak, perhaps pessimism is realistic and adaptive, what's the use in butting your head against a brick wall? It might be nature's way of keeping autistic numbers down. Perhaps autistics being a minority is optimal for human progress, you don't want too much of a good thing!