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The concept of faith in religion - may challenge your faith

Full Steam

The renegade master
V.I.P Member
I've been thinking a lot about how faith is expected or demanded in some religions.

The problem with the demand for faith is this:

The only reason you know that faith is important is because a human has told you.

Therefore your faith relies on human messages not the divine.

If it came from the divine, faith would be unnecessary as contact with the divine would negate any need for faith.

Conclusion: faith is a cynical human tool to spread a religions footprint, and not a tool of getting closer to the divine.

Happily there is a fix. Seek direct contact with the divine, which all religions (probably) show practical methods to achieve.
 
Where faith is required there's an absence of proof, that's one of the major issues I have with most religions, and yes you are told what you should believe by other humans, either past or present, in fact even the so called "holy" books were only written by people (and guess what, people can't always be trusted). Another problem I have is how religion manifests human's primitive tribal instinct that often causes hatred, wars and killing, the very opposite of what most religions are supposed to teach. Many people are however in my opinion brainwashed into having faith in such religions from a very early age, I remember being one of the only children who blatantly refused to go to Church even for carol services at school and also refusing to pray in assembly for this very reason, I protested and got myself into trouble for it at a time when the UK was still a Christian state and I wasn't sorry, one Christmas I sneaked off and hid in the computer room lol. Then each religion thinks they're right and everyone else is apparently mislead and wrong which is of course absolutely ridiculous. I strongly suspect that none of them are correct and I have absolutely no faith in them.

The only religions I will start to partly believe in are the ones where I see actual evidence and proof, there are a couple of religions that allow one to seek some actual truth without just faith alone, but even then none are totally conclusive. There's a few forms of Spiritualism and I don't agree with everything they teach and part of it still relies on faith alone, but if you wish to investigate as I did since 1996 you can discover yourself that there is definitely things that exist that are not explained by conventional science including what appear to be energies that show signs of intelligence that some people may conclude are "spirits". Buddhism is somewhat different too as you are only expected to have faith in the techniques you are taught (E.g. meditation) and you then discover knowledge yourself. Scientology is often criticised because many people believe it's a dangerous religious cult and in my opinion they are far too interested in recruiting and then taking over people's lives and money (be very careful), however at least in the early stages they only really teach techniques which you can apply to everyday life, some of these techniques do actually work and therefore this also isn't faith alone, but it is very common for early teachings to be particularly believable in order to get new recruits into such religions and some of what they teach is very similar to proven psychology. Once you are impressed and believe this however you are then conditioned to have faith in other teachings that probably wouldn't be convincing otherwise.
 
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One of the main reasons I was attracted to Paganism is that it doesn't require any faith to believe in the natural world.
 
Where faith is required there's an absence of proof, that's one of the major issues I have with most religions, and yes you are told what you should believe by other humans, either past or present, in fact even the so called "holy" books were only written by people (and guess what, people can't always be trusted). Another problem I have is how religion manifests human's primitive tribal instinct that often causes hatred, wars and killing, the very opposite of what most religions are supposed to teach. Many people are however in my opinion brainwashed into having faith in such religions from a very early age, I remember being one of the only children who blatantly refused to go to Church even for carol services at school and also refusing to pray in assembly for this very reason, I protested and got myself into trouble for it at a time when the UK was still a Christian state and I wasn't sorry, one Christmas I sneaked off and hid in the computer room lol. Then each religion thinks they're right and everyone else is apparently mislead and wrong which is of course absolutely ridiculous. I strongly suspect that none of them are correct and I have absolutely no faith in them.

The only religions I will start to partly believe in are the ones where I see actual evidence and proof, there are a couple of religions that allow one to seek some actual truth without just faith alone, but even then none are totally conclusive. There's a few forms of Spiritualism and I don't agree with everything they teach and part of it still relies on faith alone, but if you wish to investigate as I did since 1996 you can discover yourself that there is definitely things that exist that are not explained by conventional science including what appear to be energies that show signs of intelligence that some people may conclude are "spirits". Buddhism is somewhat different too as you are only expected to have faith in the techniques you are taught (E.g. meditation) and you then discover knowledge yourself. Scientology is often criticised because many people believe it's a dangerous religious cult and in my opinion they are far too interested in recruiting and then taking over people's lives and money (be very careful), however at least in the early stages they only really teach techniques which you can apply to everyday life, some of these techniques do actually work and therefore this also isn't faith alone, but it is very common for early teachings to be particularly believable in order to get new recruits into such religions and some of what they teach is very similar to proven psychology. Once you are impressed and believe this however you are then conditioned to have faith in other teachings that probably wouldn't be convincing otherwise.

I've done that myself.

I started with Buddhism, and while I liked it , it's still a religion.

What got my attention was advaita Vedanta and direct path enlightenment.

Basically non-duality teachings.

They don't fit the term religion as they are only about showing you where to look to find out for yourself.

I've done that, and it worked very well.

The basic premise is that there is only one thing, and we are all parts of it.

We are the fingers that assume we are seperate from all other fingers, never noticing the obvious fact that there is a hand.

There is still a potential problem, and one that extends into science too.

"look and you shall see".

Do we find things because they are really there, or because we are looking for them?
 
I agree that on the face of it, faith for the sake of faith is a logical round robin. I am especially frustrated by people who claim that they believe the Bible because that's how they were raised. What about those who believe the Koran because that's how they were raised? What makes the way you were raised any better than the way they were raised? If God wants us to to be able to distinguish a true religion from any others, then He has to give us something better than "because someone said so."

I also don't believe in logical arguments for the sake of religious conversion - if someone can argue me into a religion, then someone smarter could argue me out of it. Am I supposed to spend my entire life looking for the smartest religious leader and the best logical argument? I hope not - so citing specific Bible verses and showing me that your interpretation is best ... isn't good enough.

I belong to a religion that espouses a form of scientific method - everyone is asked to study and pray on their own, and receive their own answer. Those who don't earnestly perform this experiment won't receive an answer and won't join (or, I believe, shouldn't join).

We also believe that faith is not the end, but a means to knowledge. After exercising faith and seeing the results enough times, faith should be replaced with a sure knowledge, a full confidence that the thing we have been exercising faith in is real.
 
I agree that on the face of it, faith for the sake of faith is a logical round robin. I am especially frustrated by people who claim that they believe the Bible because that's how they were raised. What about those who believe the Koran because that's how they were raised? What makes the way you were raised any better than the way they were raised? If God wants us to to be able to distinguish a true religion from any others, then He has to give us something better than "because someone said so."

I also don't believe in logical arguments for the sake of religious conversion - if someone can argue me into a religion, then someone smarter could argue me out of it. Am I supposed to spend my entire life looking for the smartest religious leader and the best logical argument? I hope not - so citing specific Bible verses and showing me that your interpretation is best ... isn't good enough.

I belong to a religion that espouses a form of scientific method - everyone is asked to study and pray on their own, and receive their own answer. Those who don't earnestly perform this experiment won't receive an answer and won't join (or, I believe, shouldn't join).

We also believe that faith is not the end, but a means to knowledge. After exercising faith and seeing the results enough times, faith should be replaced with a sure knowledge, a full confidence that the thing we have been exercising faith in is real.

I agree.
Once you take it upon yourself to get first hand experience, faith is not really required, and if it was it would be without the human error layer.
 

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