Something like autistic spectrum disorder which isn’t ASD?

[Ezra]

To be blunt. In my opinion high functioning autism diagnosed in an adult can be problematic as to exactly what is what, how extensive, what comorbids are involved etc. I do not think there is really any way to clearly define it. It is probably in many cases a ballpark estimate.

In my case I was diagnosed with textbook classic Kanner's autism when I was 2 years old. It is very cut and dry. There is no even remotely appearing anything other than significantly autistic. No masking, no blending in, nothing like that is possible for me.

 

[Els]

Even worse than this, when they just start looking for what the real issue is after you've just told them what the real issue is

Like there was one PhD psych at this place I was going to who could diagnose ADHD, so I had to go through him, but the second I mention sexual assault issues he either decided it was trauma or became upset with me for my homophobia, which does not exist, and he refused to give me the ADHD test, even though I clearly fit the criteria (though I might fit executive function issues from ASD better)

I talked to a psychologist once and he couldn't understand that it was a bigger trauma for me that I was forced to go to school compared to having a father with bipolar. Maybe because HE would have been more affected by my father's condition than by school. He couldn't get that we're totally different.

 

[Jumpback]

To be blunt. In my opinion high functioning autism diagnosed in an adult can be problematic as to exactly what is what, how extensive, what comorbids are involved etc. I do not think there is really any way to clearly define it. It is probably in many cases a ballpark estimate.

In my case I was diagnosed with textbook classic Kanner's autism when I was 2 years old. It is very cut and dry. There is no even remotely appearing anything other than significantly autistic. No masking, no blending in, nothing like that is possible for me.

To be blunt. In my opinion high functioning autism diagnosed in an adult can be problematic as to exactly what is what, how extensive, what comorbids are involved etc. I do not think there is really any way to clearly define it. It is probably in many cases a ballpark estimate.

In my case I was diagnosed with textbook classic Kanner's autism when I was 2 years old. It is very cut and dry. There is no even remotely appearing anything other than significantly autistic. No masking, no blending in, nothing like that is possible for me.

Just to clarify, there has forever been an issue, like when I was 13 this kid in school who was weaker than me would knock books out of my hand from behind and I’d have to go chase them down the stairs. I remember just feeling confused and very anxious about this instead of angry. Like I needed someone to sit me down and explain to me how I was supposed to feel about this and what I was supposed to do about this.

It was weird, I’d get bullied by the geeks and burn outs because they knew I would just get confused and anxious and not do anything. But then since I lived in the country, I could always go home and explore one of my many interests on my own or something

The more I think about it, the more I think it’s just ASD, but I have a non severe enough case where I have been able to learn to compensate for most of the social parts but have never solved the executive function issues.

 

[Jumpback]

I talked to a psychologist once and he couldn't understand that it was a bigger trauma for me that I was forced to go to school compared to having a father with bipolar. Maybe because HE would have been more affected by my father's condition than by school. He couldn't get that we're totally different.

I absolutely hear you!

When I got sexually assaulted in college and I couldn’t get this to be taken seriously, it represented a long line of people treating me bad and getting away with it and enough was just enough, it wasn’t the sexual assault itself so much.

But people assume either

(A) it was just trauma from a sexual assault

(B) since offending party was gay and my reaction didn’t meet the crime, I must have repressed homosexuality or any number of secret things wrong with me or maybe I just hate gays

And I still can’t get past this. It almost doesn’t matter what I say, no one ever believes that what I say is what I mean and it isn’t representative of some other thing. And it’s a massive issue with psychs because now I have a further issue with frustration and anger at the psych community for letting me down when I really needed help

The absurdity of this issue is ridiculous, it’s like when I was going to get medication before I gave up I absolutely dreaded psych appointments because I felt like I had to be a bit dishonest about certain things with the psych nurse and find new excuses to avoid social workers or psychs

 

[Jumpback]

I talked to a psychologist once and he couldn't understand that it was a bigger trauma for me that I was forced to go to school compared to having a father with bipolar. Maybe because HE would have been more affected by my father's condition than by school. He couldn't get that we're totally different.

In relation to what you said, it’s almost like there is this thing in the psych community that might be problematic in general, but also especially apply to people on the autism spectrum, where there still might be elements of this Freudian thing to look beyond what someone is saying to find the real problem. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

But it might be that I have become paranoid about opening up to psychs due to bad experiences in the past.

 

[Els]

In relation to what you said, it’s almost like there is this thing in the psych community that might be problematic in general, but also especially apply to people on the autism spectrum, where there still might be elements of this Freudian thing to look beyond what someone is saying to find the real problem. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

But it might be that I have become paranoid about opening up to psychs due to bad experiences in the past.

Yes, a cigar is just a cigar, especially when you're autistic. I have no real experience with psychs because I didn't think they could help - for example my need to be reassured and explained some things I couldn't understand clearly and made me anxious was interpreted to be "controlling". I didn't intend to control. I wanted to understand what was happening because not understanding was making the situation very scary for me. I also have earing sensitivity and the woman proposed me to record and hear the sounds I hate while breathing. I just left, not going to pay for that crap lol I prefer putting my money in earplugs, they're more reliable.
I have the same thing with general doctors, althrough I state the exact problem, the person understands something different and I've got to insist that, no, really, I have THIS problem, not an other one. I don't understand at all how it works, because I'm sure I express the exact thing I'm talking about. Like if I've got a pain in my nose, I'm sure my sinuses hurt, but sometimes they look somewhere different when you're like "no, really, it's my sinus".
I don't get how you should express yourself so that's clear when "a cigar is just a cigar".
That being said, I also met nice people. I think it's possible, just that it takes a bit of practice to understand who you can communicate with and who you can't and just move on when it wasn't matching anyway.

 

[Jumpback]

I talked to a psychologist once and he couldn't understand that it was a bigger trauma for me that I was forced to go to school compared to having a father with bipolar. Maybe because HE would have been more affected by my father's condition than by school. He couldn't get that we're totally different.

Sorry to go on about this, part of my version of ASD or whatever I have where I can’t let trains of thoughts go or control my urge to share them.

I remember in a college class, something about an elderly woman having fantasies of Bob Hope on a desert island or something. And this was when Bob Hope was in his 90s. The point was that psychs should view things from the elderly woman’s perspective where when Bob Hope was young he was relatively good looking and charming. But I am not sure that psychs succeed in such things overly often.

 

[Els]

Sorry to go on about this, part of my version of ASD or whatever I have where I can’t let trains of thoughts go or control my urge to share them.

I remember in a college class, something about an elderly woman having fantasies of Bob Hope on a desert island or something. And this was when Bob Hope was in his 90s. The point was that psychs should view things from the elderly woman’s perspective where when Bob Hope was young he was relatively good looking and charming. But I am not sure that psychs succeed in such things overly often.

They can't do that because they're trained to see things "objectively". So they interpret everything on an objective scale that's not exactly objective in the first place. But because it's not the patient's point of view, it's more objective.
I didn't study psychology but social sciences (anthropology), and that's the "protocol". You take the things and you "make them objective" in the normative schemes you're teached. You don't necesserily follow the person's point of view because you're supposed to interpret it in an "objective" way. So that's why they can understand things totally upside down.
Also, they're used to see any kind of people. So they don't necesserily know if you're lying, manipulating, being honest, or being clear or lost. They see all kinds of people, they don't necesserily assume that you're saying something true.

 

[Ezra]

Just to clarify, there has forever been an issue, like when I was 13 this kid in school who was weaker than me would knock books out of my hand from behind and I’d have to go chase them down the stairs. I remember just feeling confused and very anxious about this instead of angry. Like I needed someone to sit me down and explain to me how I was supposed to feel about this and what I was supposed to do about this.

It was weird, I’d get bullied by the geeks and burn outs because they knew I would just get confused and anxious and not do anything. But then since I lived in the country, I could always go home and explore one of my many interests on my own or something

The more I think about it, the more I think it’s just ASD, but I have a non severe enough case where I have been able to learn to compensate for most of the social parts but have never solved the executive function issues.

I'm sure you have a childhood history that spells out ASD. And there is probably no need to look further beyond that. But in my opinion high functioning ASD can be a bit sketchy. People have posted that even experts have said they don't think they are ASD because they do not have the classic textbook traits of severe autism, which is wrong. But at the same time I do not think HFA is usually all that cut and dry and can have fuzzy parameters.

 

[Jumpback]

They can't do that because they're trained to see things "objectively". So they interpret everything on an objective scale that's not exactly objective in the first place. But because it's not the patient's point of view, it's more objective.
I didn't study psychology but social sciences (anthropology), and that's the "protocol". You take the things and you "make them objective" in the normative schemes you're teached. You don't necesserily follow the person's point of view because you're supposed to interpret it in an "objective" way. So that's why they can understand things totally upside down.
Also, they're used to see any kind of people. So they don't necesserily know if you're lying, manipulating, being honest, or being clear or lost. They see all kinds of people, they don't necesserily assume that you're saying something true.

This is a great explanation, thanks

The absurdities to which misinterpretation of sexual assault issues reach seem to know no bounds. My ex-gf was best man at her gay friends wedding, her good friend is a gay rights activist. My sister is sort of a transgender rights activist

So anytime I try to explain anything everything gets misinterpreted under gay rights umbrella. Like I suspect ex-gfs friends worked hard to convince her that me being upset about gays made me sound like a potemtial gunman who might go shoot up a gay club and maybe kill her in the process, so I am a dangerous hate monger who must be avoided at all costs

But I don’t hate gays, sexual assault was not really all that traumatic on it’s own, it’s people’s never ending drive to not believe anything I say and turn something relatively minor into something more and more significant which always ends up proving how flawed or terrible I am that has turned an almost nothing into a like a PTSD event

I mean Jesus f’n Christ, all that happened was I got drunk and woke to a couple of guys sucking me off and trying to mount me. It wasn’t all that traumatic, it was just a crime that I wanted to be taken seriously, that’s all that happened. But it just so happens that I had a bunch of things where people treated me badly before this and this was just the last straw. That’s all this was, not evidence of 763 other things, but any time I try to get past this it always ends up being another example of people not believing anything I say and finding evidence of the real secret reason behind how something that is flawed or terrible about me.

 

[Els]

This is a great explanation, thanks

The absurdities to which misinterpretation of sexual assault issues reach seem to know no bounds. My ex-gf was best man at her gay friends wedding, her good friend is a gay rights activist. My sister is sort of a transgender rights activist

So anytime I try to explain anything everything gets misinterpreted under gay rights umbrella. Like I suspect ex-gfs friends convinced her that me being upset about gays made me sound like a potemtial gunman who might go shoot up a gay club and maybe kill her in the process, so I am a dangerous hate monger who must be avoided at all costs

But I don’t hate gays, sexual assault was not really all that traumatic on it’s own, it’s people’s never ending drive to not believe anything I say and turn something relatively minor into something more and more significant which always ends up proving how flawed or terrible I am that has turned an almost nothing into a like a PTSD event

I mean Jesus f’n Christ, all that happened was I got drunk and woke to a couple of guys sucking me off and trying to mount me. It wasn’t all that traumatic, it was just a crime that I wanted to be taken seriously, that’s all that happened. But it just so happens that I had a bunch of things where people treated me badly before this and this was just the last straw. That’s all this was, not evidence of 763 other things.

Well, on one side it's recquiered and good to not take the person's opinion for granted as the truth, because it does help as we're not necesserily seeing everything when we're an actor of the situation. So it's both, objectivity is good in the way that it can bring light upon things we can't see ourselves, but it can also lead to misinterpretations, when the person's opinion is totally dismissed for example. I think it's more about finding a balance between those two poles.

Maybe you'll find someone able to hear what happened to you without judging. I understand it's awful to not be recognized and dismissed and minimized. Lots of people go through that too, don't focus only on the ones who don't and can't understand, it will make your life very dark. I'm sure there are many other people who lived similar things, maybe they can help you feel understood. I don't really know about it.
It can also happen that people who can't understand at one moment grow into being able to understand you at an other moment in their lives. People are stable but they also change a lot.
I grew a bit antisocial lately, but I think althrough people's recognition and approval matters on one side, it also doesn't matter at all (but it's my point of view, I used to be more dependant on what others think).

 

[Jumpback]

Well, on one side it's recquiered and good to not take the person's opinion for granted as the truth, because it does help as we're not necesserily seeing everything when we're an actor of the situation. So it's both, objectivity is good in the way that it can bring light upon things we can't see ourselves, but it can also lead to misinterpretations, when the person's opinion is totally dismissed for example. I think it's more about finding a balance between those two poles.

Maybe you'll find someone able to hear what happened to you without judging. I understand it's awful to not be recognized and dismissed and minimized. Lots of people go through that too, don't focus only on the ones who don't and can't understand, it will make your life very dark. I'm sure there are many other people who lived similar things, maybe they can help you feel understood. I don't really know about it.
It can also happen that people who can't understand at one moment grow into being able to understand you at an other moment in their lives. People are stable but they also change a lot.
I grew a bit antisocial lately, but I think althrough people's recognition and approval matters on one side, it also doesn't matter at all (but it's my point of view, I used to be more dependant on what others think).

Thanks so much

I don’t really think it’s people being bad or not trying to understand and so on, I think that I got unlucky in every way in that the thing, after a whole bunch of other things, which finally cracked me also happened to be an amazingly sensitive issue affecting someone who as probably having ASD might tend to have issues with being as sensitive as possible.

I just wish the thing that finally cracked me was something more like a getting robbed at gunpoint or getting fired from a job or whatever else so there might be less confusion about what the real issue was.

 

[Els]

Thanks so much

I don’t really think it’s people being bad or not trying to understand and so on, I think that I got unlucky in every way in that the thing, after a whole bunch of other things, which finally cracked me also happened to be an amazingly sensitive issue affecting someone who as probably having ASD might tend to have issues with being as sensitive as possible.

I just wish the thing that finally cracked me was something more like a getting robbed at gunpoint or getting fired from a job or whatever else so there might be less confusion about what the real issue was.

Nothing. I'm sure you can find people who'll be less confused about it and able to hear you.
Maybe the "issue" in communicating about both things is that they're 2 "big" informations at once. Like the 2 informations are too much at once, so people get confused, or prioritize something upon the other and miss the big picture you're trying to communicate. I'm not saying you explain it wrongly or something, but I think I can see why people focus on that event rather than the ASD issue - they have no idea how traumatizing it is - but the event you describe might leave a "greater" impression in their minds so they forget about ASD. It might just be that they're both 2 big topics so people can't focus on both.
I think about this because one time I had a problem at the belly + terribly painful tooth infection. Everybody was focusing on the belly thing - which was good because it was more urgent - but in the meantime the infection was super painful and nobody seemed to care.
It might be somewhat the same effect when you talk about the event + ASD at once? They care about what seems to be bigger because they can't focus on both, even through they're both 2 big things?

 

[risootser]

Yes, a cigar is just a cigar, especially when you're autistic.

Didn't you even think about if cigar is not a cigar? Like wanting to tear it open and trying to confirm it or disprove it? Or thinking that there are many sorts of cigars? Or it is a tube? Maybe one can pretend to smoke cigar by using a thick branch? Or that maybe these sorts of people are not health conscious or they do not care about others' breathing conditions. Or they just appear tougher that way? Or that one could insert explosives in it and make a funny prank? Or one could use it as a wheel? Or one could save tobacco by selling half empty cigars to people? Or one could use it as some sort of support? Or one could try to scratch itching nose or ear with it?

I swear those are the things that run through my head ever since I can remember.

 

[Jumpback]

Nothing. I'm sure you can find people who'll be less confused about it and able to hear you.
Maybe the "issue" in communicating about both things is that they're 2 "big" informations at once. Like the 2 informations are too much at once, so people get confused, or prioritize something upon the other and miss the big picture you're trying to communicate. I'm not saying you explain it wrongly or something, but I think I can see why people focus on that event rather than the ASD issue - they have no idea how traumatizing it is - but the event you describe might leave a "greater" impression in their minds so they forget about ASD. It might just be that they're both 2 big topics so people can't focus on both.
I think about this because one time I had a problem at the belly + terribly painful tooth infection. Everybody was focusing on the belly thing - which was good because it was more urgent - but in the meantime the infection was super painful and nobody seemed to care.
It might be somewhat the same effect when you talk about the event + ASD at once? They care about what seems to be bigger because they can't focus on both, even through they're both 2 big things?

Yes, it’s definitely like you explain about having 2 big informations at once or like having a toothache and a bellyache. But the ASD type things was far, far bigger of a deal than the sexual assault. I was way behind others in being social or knowing how to deal with people and I had a lot of trouble getting to college classes and then would zone out and not pay attention in lectures. And was about to have to out into the world and deal with people and sit at a desk to work or something. And here the only help I am getting for being so upset was whether or not I have repressed homosexuality or something seriously wrong with my brain because my reactions did not match the crime. I ended up not even trying to get a normal job and just delivered pizzas for a long time despite eventually getting 3 undergraduate degrees

Or maybe if people hadn’t misinterpreted, having ASD or whatever I have would still have resulted in me not being able to work at an office job or something. But I think I would have been more likely to at least try without this.

 

[risootser]

Or maybe if people hadn’t misinterpreted, having ASD or whatever I have would still have resulted in me not being able to work at an office job or something. But I think I would have been more likely to at least try without this.

I see. I think autism is not a proven condition let alone non-Kannerian (why did H Asperger call it personality instead of developmental disorder? We do not know for certain.). So let's just say that this clustering disorder among mental health people makes it hard to know whether head or tails. They pull stuff out of their gut and its bacterial imbalance is horrendous... so much sulphur in the air. Don't you all smell it?
I'd say specifically appearing executive disorder (eventough not clearly hard coded) should satisfy everyone. If you do not feel any other sort of identity just make it clear to them. I was rude to psych people last time but I made the point while I didn't like it and others were amazed and disgusted. I just sit back and gave my solid opinions with debate. I raised my voice. I'm not usually like this but the treatment has been subpar from their part for a long time.

 

[Jumpback]

I see. I think autism is not a proven condition let alone non-Kannerian (why did H Asperger call it personality instead of developmental disorder? We do not know for certain.). So let's just say that this clustering disorder among mental health people makes it hard to know whether head or tails. They pull stuff out of their gut and its bacterial imbalance is horrendous... so much sulphur in the air. Don't you all smell it?
I'd say specifically appearing executive disorder (eventough not clearly hard coded) should satisfy everyone. If you do not feel any other sort of identity just make it clear to them. I was rude to psych people last time but I made the point while I didn't like it and others were amazed and disgusted. I just sit back and gave my solid opinions with debate. I raised my voice. I'm not usually like this but the treatment has been subpar from their part for a long time.

I hear you. I think the real issue is that brain is so sophisticated that people don’t know exactly what is going on, plus insurance companies want some specific diagnosis code, plus psych professionals have some need to be authority figures and experts and can sometimes give in to human weaknesses of being the people in charge talking down to the patient.

But to give some credit to the psych profession, I think that people in research and at the top recognize that they don’t exactly get what’s going on and keep trying to fix things. Like they completely changed things between the DSM IV and the DSM V in relation to autism.

Like if your sink is leaking or backed up and you call a plumber, the problem and the solution is pretty obvious. I suspect that the whole thing with the brain being complicated and how people work and so on just results in 10,000 more things that can go wrong in the process than if the drain pipe in your kitchen sink is just old and rusty

 

[Els]

Didn't you even think about if cigar is not a cigar? Like wanting to tear it open and trying to confirm it or disprove it? Or thinking that there are many sorts of cigars? Or it is a tube? Maybe one can pretend to smoke cigar by using a thick branch? Or that maybe these sorts of people are not health conscious or they do not care about others' breathing conditions. Or they just appear tougher that way? Or that one could insert explosives in it and make a funny prank? Or one could use it as a wheel? Or one could save tobacco by selling half empty cigars to people? Or one could use it as some sort of support? Or one could try to scratch itching nose or ear with it?

I swear those are the things that run through my head ever since I can remember.

Ahah I understand what you mean. I wasn't interested in cigars because of the smell but I get the point

 

[Pistachio]

The executive functioning deficits you feel are the most important trait can be caused by a lot of different stuffs. Autism is one of them, but there are many others. A doctor might have a larger view about what could cause those issues and might advice you to rule out some other things you/we don't think about becaue we're not doctors. There are many things that can cause problems in executive functioning, I personally don't know enough to advice anything else than asking a doctor and see what comes out of the conversation.

I think she explains very well to understand what the criterias are and how it works.

Thanks for suggesting the video, I thought it was good explanation of autism concepts. It occurred to me during her talk that I would've thought of autism earlier if someone had told me how NT people's minds work, and not only about autistic symptoms. In other words, I know how my mind operates, I have no idea what it's like to be an NT...so it never even occurred to me that they were any different from me (until about a year ago). Different personalities sure, completely different experience of the world, no.

 

[Jumpback]

I'm sure you have a childhood history that spells out ASD. And there is probably no need to look further beyond that. But in my opinion high functioning ASD can be a bit sketchy. People have posted that even experts have said they don't think they are ASD because they do not have the classic textbook traits of severe autism, which is wrong. But at the same time I do not think HFA is usually all that cut and dry and can have fuzzy parameters.

Thank you, it really helps for someone who knows what things are supposed to look like to tell me what the hell is most likely going on.

And I agree with everything you say about the whole thing being a bit sketchy

It’s just that, in my case a sexual assault triggered me no longer being able to cover things up which confuses everything, the sexual assault involved a gay couple in the middle of gay rights movement which confuses everything, then seemingly all psychs I see I liberal which confuses everything because they might feel an obligation to stand up to this non existent homophobic hate

So I guess that even though I think that the entire thing with adult ASD diagnoses is a bit off, if I can’t explain using a simple categorization, the alternative explanation ends up being something like I am purposely being messy for no reason and maybe just being lazy or making excuses or being inconsiderate and using my delusional hatred of gays as an excuse

Like I think the categorization among adults is problematic at best, but the alternative explanations to explain things to people end up being horrible.

To be fair to people in general, I have never expressed my frustration with things as clearly as I am now, partially as a result of developing the ability to express myself clearly, but also as result of having a reference point like ‘under something which might be ASD’ to express myself, and also because I am talking to people who have had issues in the same general direction

So like the whole thing is a bit off, but people need simple explanations to explain complicated things for some reason