solving Autism

[Crossbreed]

I am just saying that if there was no increased incidence of 2s & 3s, they would have maintained the same special education class loads, just under different [read "wrong"] labels. There is no universe where obvious 2s & 3s would have been successfully mainstreamed.

When I was in school, I only saw two girls in special ed. who appeared to be [ASD2*]. The rest of their class had more obvious signs of Downs Syndrome.

*They were verbal and did not appear to be wearing diapers.

 

[Alexej]

Warning - Slighly off track comment
@Ronald Zeeman, thank you for the thread. As I read the title today I was reminded of this quote

"...have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books in a very foreign tongue. Do not search for answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live our way into the answer." Rilke

In light of all the talk of "curing" autism this quote appeals to me. As I live with my autism then perhaps one day we will get to understand more about it and how autism is part of the bigger picture.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

If I were to guess if you bell curve us 2 sigma would be 1 and 2's. many in math and science based currculums.I refused to take English past 10th grade or French period in high school. My older brother did so poorly, a guidance counselor wrote letters for both of us to get into university, I passed went to college instead. He refused to to complete his degree as that's not what he went to school for. My point we are different stick out like sore thumbs. I have read lots of biographies on math and science geniuses many dropped out of high school then went back university later got PHD. Einstein could not find employment for years after graduation He spent little time in class. prefered to study alone. All the clues are their. We have always been around just look and you will see us in plan site.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I am just saying that if there was no increased incidence of 2s & 3s, they would have maintained the same special education class loads, just under different [read "wrong"] labels. There is no universe where obvious 2s & 3s would have been successfully mainstreamed.

When I was in school, I only saw two girls in special ed. who appeared to be [ASD2*]. The rest of their class had more obvious signs of Downs Syndrome.

*They were verbal and did not appear to be wearing diapers.

All the data I have queried suggests a rise in 2s and 3s, and an increase in special ed class loads.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Seeing many clues in my family hundreds of years ago lots of family only one or two kids.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

All the data I have queried suggests a rise in 2s and 3s, and an increase in special ed class loads.

I noticed my son in a special ed class a certain number are their probably at 3 sigma level have no business being their. My own son, An NT, had a very rare learning disability, goes away as soon as he hit puberty. paid for supplemental education. got school to give him test for english and math he aced both tests stunned the school next day he was in regular high school, graduated, He also graduated college three year program, meet woman with PHD now they are parents of my grand daughter.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I noticed my son in a special ed class a certain number are their probably at 3 sigma level have no business being their. My own son, An NT, had a very rare learning disability, goes away as soon as he hit puberty. paid for supplemental education. got school to give him test for english and math he aced both tests stunned the school next day he was in regular high school, graduated, He also graduated college three year program, meet woman with PHD now they are parents of my grand daughter.

"Apples and oranges" perhaps. Great to hear about your son.

As the meta-analysis above suggests there are times when "3s" become "2s"... and "2s" become "1s"... but many do not, as well. I know many of us, likely the majority, on this forum are "1s", but there are also a lot of parents of 2s and 3s here that may just shake their heads at some of our conversations. They are in a totally different "space", and we all should be sensitive to that.

All this conversation about the rise in autism and the statistics surrounding it has distorted the view that "we are just better at diagnosing" rather than discussing the very real rise in autism, especially those 3s that effect all aspects of family life within the home.

Sure, I have posted on the fact that some of our non-verbal, apraxic, brothers and sisters have demonstrated amazing abilities and cognitive function... when they have gained the fine motor skills to use letter and keyboards. I hope neural implants like those offered by Neuralink will allow them to expand their world... and ours in the future. I think this speaks to the apraxia component more than anything. There appears to be little correlation between autism and intellect... even amongst those trapped in their bodies due to apraxia. Then, there are others that truly have intellectual impairment that this discussion no longer applies. I don't want to distort the conversation.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

My son told me when in public school he could tell who the intellectually challenged students were and who was not. his friends like him did not belong there. I got him out felt helpless to getting others out. Crazy thing is a world famous comedian attended his school also got out Indian/Canadian comedian. Russell Peters, who gave speech at Humber College received honour, stated people like him do not go to schools like this where as my son graduated from this college.

 

[Matthias]

My last 2 therapists highlighted the overlap in Autism symptoms and unresolved trauma and complex trauma.

There's also a lot of crossover with ADHD too. And people with Autism often have other co-morbidities, especially anxiety and depression - and a greater risk of substance abuse or other problematic behavioural addictions.

Interesting how all the conditions with similar symptoms as autism are mental health disorders.

Then there's the statistics suggesting any of the above issues and conditions greatly reduce average life expectancy. People on the spectrum often have noticeable markers for increased cortisol on the body, due to chronic stress and difficulties with emotional regulation.

Everyone can reduce their stress and improve their ability to regulate their emotions by reading books on emotional intelligence and applying what they've learned.

One thing I've noticed working with people with learning disabilities is how wonderful it is to see so many people who don't mask. They're true to themselves, even if some in society are confused by their behaviour and mannerisms. And it's those deemed "high functioning " who have learned to mask, and often suffer because of this due to anxiety and exhaustion that all the pretending causes.

Ed

I think it would be more wonderful if people overcame the emotional problems that led to their abnormal behavior and mannerisms. That way they could be true to themselves without masking or acting like they're emotionally disturbed.

 

[the_tortoise]

There is no universe where obvious 2s & 3s would have been successfully mainstreamed.

Yes there is. It is this one.

 

[Outsider]

Perhaps the doctors should start looking for extent of physical damage to the nervous system and brain in order to identify ASD 2 and 3 cases. MRI technology is good enough to detect these types of damage. On the downside, there are other types of conditions that are also characterized by the brain and neurological system damages. On the upside, methods for treating almost all these conditions are very similar, so the differentiation between them is of a little value.

 

[Dagan]

42

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

All I know is when my older brother was alive and married for a few weeks after visiting him and his wife his schizophrenia, even his autism went away for a period of time his wife took him to a psychiatrist. who told her nothing to see here he is normal. I would not have believed if I has not seen it for myself. I had no idea at the time I was also on the spectrum. I'm pretty sure some answers are in my family.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Watching this yesterday something one of us could one of these guys.

 

[Crossbreed]

Yes there is. It is this one.

Ex-2s & 3s (rare as hen's teeth), maybe.
Nobody who randomly

• poops themselves,
• bites other people,
• strips on a whim, etc.

like any other self-respecting 18-month old will be mainstreamed successfully.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Still learning. all I know is who I am and who I Have meet on this site. Never interacted with anyone disabled since in I was in crippled children centre 60 years ago.

 

[the_tortoise]

Ex-2s & 3s (rare as hen's teeth), maybe.
Nobody who randomly

• poops themselves,
• bites other people,
• strips on a whim, etc.

You have a very very skewed and overly stereoyped idea of what Autism levels mean -- and clearly see only two of them since you dont even distinguish between levels 2 and 3.

I have been told for RRB/sensory cateogory I am probably level 3 - minimum 2. I do none of the things in your list unless you count biting myself.

Your ideas are offensive and like I have always expected most people to do, you are just using your old (and equally wrong) misconceptions about "high" and "low" functioning people and trying to adapt
them to the support levels....which were designed precisely because the ideas you are promoting are ignorant nonsense.

I am not saying there are no people with Level 3 autism who would display the traits you list. And btw ai have actually seen people who do do one or two of things mainstreamed with support. Special ed is not so exclusionary in Canada as it is wherever you live. And btw the incontinence thing? That isn't necessarily developmental - I thank god I have never had issues with that but many physical conditions could cause such issues as well regardless of a person's overall functioning or intelligence.

I would bet you think all people with Intellectual Disabiltiy do the above things as well? REALITY CHECK FOR YOU: I have known so so many people (minimum 100 - minutely small sample size but likely far bigger than yours) with IQs betwen 50 and 70 who do none of those things, do not come close to your stereotypes.

Your views are bigoted and hurtful. Please educate yourself.

 

[Crossbreed]

I am describing my own ASD3 daughter and many that we have met who are like her.
Her ASD2 brother has other socio-pathic issues.
(We still love the stuffin' out of both of them, though!)
You have no cause for offense.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Interesting debate lets try and keep it civil Canada is a huge county health care is a provincial responsibility. Ontario having the largest population concentration.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Perhaps the doctors should start looking for extent of physical damage to the nervous system and brain in order to identify ASD 2 and 3 cases. MRI technology is good enough to detect these types of damage. On the downside, there are other types of conditions that are also characterized by the brain and neurological system damages. On the upside, methods for treating almost all these conditions are very similar, so the differentiation between them is of a little value.

I am learning that all of this has a high degree of complexity and things might not be as they may appear on the surface. In many of these cases, it is a neurodevelopmental issue... such as abnormal neuronal formation and/or migrational patterns... and not an "injury model" per se. Cells may have "zigged" when they should have "zagged", but it's not a "damaged nervous system" by most definitions. That said, there are true injury models... as seen in infants born extremely premature.

ASD levels probably aren't the best ways to characterize what is really going on in terms of intellect, as in the case of the physical manifestations of apraxia and dyspraxia where there are various forms and degrees of mind-body disconnect. Many times these individuals do need quite a bit of assistance... and this is more where the "levels of support" come into play. They may even appear to be compromised intellectually... but in some cases may be quite "intact" despite the outward appearance and behaviors... severe verbal and physical stimming, feces spreading, stripping naked, etc. That, in and of itself, within the context of autism, might not be the best indicators... as deceiving as it may appear. Keep in mind, most of the tests that we use to assess intelligence will require fine motor skills...especially those used with children. If you are apraxic/severely dyspraxic... you won't be able to pass the simplest of tests.

As mentioned earlier, there are ASD3s that are intellectually impaired... but we are learning that in some cases, they might not be... and once these individuals have been given the correct communication tools and therapies they have a lot of profound things to say... but were unable to. The "experts" that these parents relied upon may have been totally wrong and given the wrong advice and never given hope. Case by case. We still have a lot to learn.