Polchinski
Active Member
There are Sabbaterian movements within Christianity that believe that Christians should go to church on Saturday rather than Sunday, because Saturday is in the Old Testament, and God never commanded that one should change to the other. Actually, as a Messianic, I belong to one of those groups.
So anyway, one of the few responses that Sunday goes came up with is Acts 20:7, which documents Apostles "breaking bread" on the first day of the week. That is, Sunday.
Now, the way Saturday goers respond to it is the following. According to the Biblical calendar, the day goes from sunset to sunset. Thus, Jewish sabbath goes from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, and the vast majority of Jews, in fact, end it on saturday sunset. But then there is a little known Jewish tradition that is called Havdalah, where they don't end it on saturday sunset but continue further. They do it in order to show their devotion. As in, they delighted in the Torah so much that 24 hours just weren't enough, they want to study Torah further. So they would be studying Torah saturday night, when sabbath is technically over. Now, since the day goes from sunset to sunset, the "saturday night" would actually be counted as sunday. So they speculate that Acts 20:7 refers to apostles observing Havdalah and studying at what WE will call "saturday night" but what THEY would call sunday.
Well, what most Saturday goers would do with the above argument is they would say "so Apostles didn't observe Sunday, and we shouldn't either, case closed"
But I am thinking of saying something else. If Apostles could observe Sunday in the name of Havdalah, why can't today's Christians do the same? Well, in order for them to "do the same" what they would have to do is first observe Saturday sabbath, THEN continue past sunset with Havdalah, but THEN go above and beyond with their Havdalah so that it would continue throughout the whole night, and THEN they would end their Havdalah with sunady morning service. So during their sunday morning service they would be all tired and sleepy, probably with a migraine (at least I tend to have a migraine when I stay up all night) and then when their sunday morning service is finally over they would go home and collapse into the bed.
By the way, in the Russian Orthodox Church there is a type of service called "всеночная", where they stay up all night. The only quetion is: are they doing it the night from saturday to sunday, or the night from sunday to monday? If its the night from saturday to sunday that would fit right in with what I am saying. But if it is the night from sunday to monday then no it won't fit. I looked it up and, lo and behold, it is the night from saturday to sunday. GREAT!!!
But then again, the other problem is that they probably "don't" observe saturday sabbath. So how can you say they are doing Havdalah (where supposedly 24 hour saturday sabbath wasn't enough) when they haven't observed said 24 hour sabbath to begin with?
Well I have an answer to this too. I tend to procrastinate with my homework. So I spend all day "not" doing my homework and being addicted to the internet (like I am doing now). But then later when I am supposed to go to bed I am like "let me work just a little longer to get done what I need to get done" and then I stay up till 2 am actually working. So maybe with Havdalah it is the same thing. Maybe they were procrastinating with doing the sabbath thing, and then they are desperately tryign to run against the clock to fulfill their sabbath duty (better late than never) so they stay up all night with Havdalah.
This also reminds me of what Jews do during their Yom Kippur service. So they have morning service. Then they take a break for few hours. Then probably an hour before the sunset (that is, an hour before the whole thing ends) they have a service where they plead to God to extend their time. But wait a second. Why are they pleading with God to extend the time if they had all that time before that they just wasted? And I understand if they were just procrastinating and didn't mean to. But the whole point is that they MEANT to do exactly what they did. Because they had a schedule set up AHEAD OF TIME where they put BOTH that break AND that pleading service in the evening. To me it makes no sense at all.
Well, maybe Christians doing sabbath thing on Sunday is the same exact concept. Just like Jews are trying to make up for the hours they missed during Yom Kippur by pleading with God in the evening, Christians are trying to make up for missing out on Sabbath by having the service on Sunday.
I realize that that is not what is going on there: if you ask most Christians they won't tell you thats what they do. But it is a bit funny to look at it this way.
Speaking of "всеночная", as I mentioned earlier: Russian Orthodox don't observe saturday sabbath (just like most protestants and catholics don't). But Ethiopian Orthodox DO observe both days. Which by the way makes me wonder: why don't others do the way Ethiopians are doing? I mean logically it would make sense. Saturday is creation day; Sunday is a resurrection day. So why not observe creation on saturday and resurrection on sunday?
Saturday goers would say they don't observe Sunday because its not in the Bible. But the Bible never said "not to" observe it either. All the Bible said is to observe Saturday. So if you observe Saturday AND Sunday, then you are good. But this option never occurred to them since they have it ingrained in their mind that somehow those two days are mutually exclusive. But they don't have to be. They celebrate completely different things. And the fact that something is not in the Bible doesn't make it a sin to observe it: after all a command "not to" observe it is not in the Bible either.
Sunday goes on the other hand would say they don't observe saturday because "we are not under the law". While I don't agree with them, lets say for the sake of the argument that I did. So then, if we are "not under the law", why are they observing Sunday then? They say they observe Sunday "not" to get saved but just to express gratitude for Resurrection. Well, why then not also observe Saturday to express gratitude for creation?
I personally observe saturday and not sunday just because thats what the Messianic churches I go to do. But if I could find an Ethiopian church within walking distance I would gladly go to their Saturday+Sunday services to see what its like. By the way I am not Ethiopian at all. I am Ashkenazi Jew, from Russia. So I probably not fit in since I am White and they are black. But still would be interesting to come as a guest and see what its like.
By the way, since in US and most of Europe saturday AND sunday are both weekends, does it mean that at some point someone else had that idea too?
So anyway, one of the few responses that Sunday goes came up with is Acts 20:7, which documents Apostles "breaking bread" on the first day of the week. That is, Sunday.
Now, the way Saturday goers respond to it is the following. According to the Biblical calendar, the day goes from sunset to sunset. Thus, Jewish sabbath goes from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, and the vast majority of Jews, in fact, end it on saturday sunset. But then there is a little known Jewish tradition that is called Havdalah, where they don't end it on saturday sunset but continue further. They do it in order to show their devotion. As in, they delighted in the Torah so much that 24 hours just weren't enough, they want to study Torah further. So they would be studying Torah saturday night, when sabbath is technically over. Now, since the day goes from sunset to sunset, the "saturday night" would actually be counted as sunday. So they speculate that Acts 20:7 refers to apostles observing Havdalah and studying at what WE will call "saturday night" but what THEY would call sunday.
Well, what most Saturday goers would do with the above argument is they would say "so Apostles didn't observe Sunday, and we shouldn't either, case closed"
But I am thinking of saying something else. If Apostles could observe Sunday in the name of Havdalah, why can't today's Christians do the same? Well, in order for them to "do the same" what they would have to do is first observe Saturday sabbath, THEN continue past sunset with Havdalah, but THEN go above and beyond with their Havdalah so that it would continue throughout the whole night, and THEN they would end their Havdalah with sunady morning service. So during their sunday morning service they would be all tired and sleepy, probably with a migraine (at least I tend to have a migraine when I stay up all night) and then when their sunday morning service is finally over they would go home and collapse into the bed.
By the way, in the Russian Orthodox Church there is a type of service called "всеночная", where they stay up all night. The only quetion is: are they doing it the night from saturday to sunday, or the night from sunday to monday? If its the night from saturday to sunday that would fit right in with what I am saying. But if it is the night from sunday to monday then no it won't fit. I looked it up and, lo and behold, it is the night from saturday to sunday. GREAT!!!
But then again, the other problem is that they probably "don't" observe saturday sabbath. So how can you say they are doing Havdalah (where supposedly 24 hour saturday sabbath wasn't enough) when they haven't observed said 24 hour sabbath to begin with?
Well I have an answer to this too. I tend to procrastinate with my homework. So I spend all day "not" doing my homework and being addicted to the internet (like I am doing now). But then later when I am supposed to go to bed I am like "let me work just a little longer to get done what I need to get done" and then I stay up till 2 am actually working. So maybe with Havdalah it is the same thing. Maybe they were procrastinating with doing the sabbath thing, and then they are desperately tryign to run against the clock to fulfill their sabbath duty (better late than never) so they stay up all night with Havdalah.
This also reminds me of what Jews do during their Yom Kippur service. So they have morning service. Then they take a break for few hours. Then probably an hour before the sunset (that is, an hour before the whole thing ends) they have a service where they plead to God to extend their time. But wait a second. Why are they pleading with God to extend the time if they had all that time before that they just wasted? And I understand if they were just procrastinating and didn't mean to. But the whole point is that they MEANT to do exactly what they did. Because they had a schedule set up AHEAD OF TIME where they put BOTH that break AND that pleading service in the evening. To me it makes no sense at all.
Well, maybe Christians doing sabbath thing on Sunday is the same exact concept. Just like Jews are trying to make up for the hours they missed during Yom Kippur by pleading with God in the evening, Christians are trying to make up for missing out on Sabbath by having the service on Sunday.
I realize that that is not what is going on there: if you ask most Christians they won't tell you thats what they do. But it is a bit funny to look at it this way.
Speaking of "всеночная", as I mentioned earlier: Russian Orthodox don't observe saturday sabbath (just like most protestants and catholics don't). But Ethiopian Orthodox DO observe both days. Which by the way makes me wonder: why don't others do the way Ethiopians are doing? I mean logically it would make sense. Saturday is creation day; Sunday is a resurrection day. So why not observe creation on saturday and resurrection on sunday?
Saturday goers would say they don't observe Sunday because its not in the Bible. But the Bible never said "not to" observe it either. All the Bible said is to observe Saturday. So if you observe Saturday AND Sunday, then you are good. But this option never occurred to them since they have it ingrained in their mind that somehow those two days are mutually exclusive. But they don't have to be. They celebrate completely different things. And the fact that something is not in the Bible doesn't make it a sin to observe it: after all a command "not to" observe it is not in the Bible either.
Sunday goes on the other hand would say they don't observe saturday because "we are not under the law". While I don't agree with them, lets say for the sake of the argument that I did. So then, if we are "not under the law", why are they observing Sunday then? They say they observe Sunday "not" to get saved but just to express gratitude for Resurrection. Well, why then not also observe Saturday to express gratitude for creation?
I personally observe saturday and not sunday just because thats what the Messianic churches I go to do. But if I could find an Ethiopian church within walking distance I would gladly go to their Saturday+Sunday services to see what its like. By the way I am not Ethiopian at all. I am Ashkenazi Jew, from Russia. So I probably not fit in since I am White and they are black. But still would be interesting to come as a guest and see what its like.
By the way, since in US and most of Europe saturday AND sunday are both weekends, does it mean that at some point someone else had that idea too?
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