Okay, need help with a computer hardware question here

[Judge]

Fascinating. Sounds somewhat like a problem for Samsung televisions. Where after so long they go berserk switching on and off in a recursive loop. Where the recommended fix is to unplug it for a few minutes, then replug it into an outlet without a surge protector. Lastly to do a factory reset and voila- the problem stopped.

Yeah. I had that tv previously plugged into a rather old surge protector with five other devices. With such devices and the latest PCs, I guess their power consumption makes it a foregone conclusion to give them an exclusive electrical outlet not shared with other devices. Though in my case when I switched outlets, the tv still is sharing power with my Roku device. But at least the problem went away.

Just still seems weird to read that surge protectors can cause voltage regulation issues with certain more sensitive electrical devices.

 

[Misery]

Okay, so, update: Happened again. This time it worked most of the night, but... yeah. Just suddenly "poof", no more spinning.

Thing was plugged into a different surge protector this time, which was going into a different outlet entirely, and with nothing there. Just the PC entirely by itself on that protector/outlet. This was mainly done because the turdsnots that package these things gave me yet another power cable that's like 2 inches long (seriously why do they all do that).

By struggling with the bloody machine and pulling it forward so one corner is off the freaking desk (supported by the adjacent art table though) the power cable BARELY reaches the badly placed actual outlet. Well, there's two outlets nearby, both of which are of course in dumb spots.

Okay while typing this it happened AGAIN.

Hoboy I'm near the point of my patience entirely snapping.

I do have one other, probably ridiculous suspicion: the RGB apps. The only things directly interacting with the fans. This issue didnt start until I was experimenting with those (and that's SUPPOSED to just change the blasted light colors, but now I'm not so sure). One of them went nuts and stopped working entirely (and of course NOBODY has any info on how to get that app working again). The other wasnt much better.

I wonder, is there any way to *completely* reset the entire machine? Like, back to how it was the moment it was turned on the first time. Including everything about the OS and apps and... everything. I've never needed to do that before, but I'm wondering if now might be a good time to try it.

Ya know, one frustrating thing is that trying to look up this problem of "fans stop spinning" online doesnt bring up anything at all.

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again: I hate modern computers with the blazing passion of a thousand suns. It's just one stupid, braindead problem after another. Even when I find a "good" one, that usually just translates to "sorta tolerable but at least it's powerful usually".

On the plus side, I've managed to control myself enough to not go all HULK SMASH on anything (this time).

For now... I guess it's time for more Factorio on the Switch. I swear, that's the only thing that stupid gizmo is good for.

 

[MildredHubble]

This sounds like it could be either an issue with the power supply or whatever device is controlling the fans.

It sounds somewhat correlated to heat. So if there is a hub controlling your fans and the RGB lights all go off at the same time then I would suspect the controller is malfunctioning. This could be due to too many amps being drawn so the PSU shuts off that particular rail.

It could be a surface mount component isn't quite soldered properly. When the system warms up the board flexes and the connection becomes intermittent. This can cause any fault detection to kick in and shut off the affected part of the system.

The reason why this may not have occured when you took it back to the store could be because it's a lot colder outside right now (?). So it took longer for the problem to pop up again.

I had a similar problem with an FPGA based retro system. When the system was just booted up, certain cores wouldn't work. But after an hour it all worked great. I could speed this up by heating the board gently with my solder rework station. So I tried to do a reflow, but no luck. So I just left the system running for a week to keep the board warmed up and now it works perfectly.

So I guess if you can try taking and fan controller out of the equation you might narrow it down. Hardware gremlins like this can be a bit difficult to pin down without a multimeter etc.

 

[Judge]

This sounds like it could be either an issue with the power supply or whatever device is controlling the fans.

It sounds somewhat correlated to heat. So if there is a hub controlling your fans and the RGB lights all go off at the same time then I would suspect the controller is malfunctioning. This could be due to too many amps being drawn so the PSU shuts off that particular rail.

Good observation. "Drawing too many amps indeed". Three what appear to be 120mm fans for the AIO, three 120mm fans for frontal air intake, and three 120mm air intake fans at the bottom of the case. Not including the three fans built into the GPU. This puppy is drawing a whole lot of juice, especially factoring in an incredibly powerful GPU and CPU.

Potentially straining both the fan hub controller and perhaps the power supply as well. Especially if both components are a proverbial "no-name" brand without a pedigree. Often the weakest points of store-bought computers. It's where builders like to save money. Where even a 1000 watt power supply of unknown origin may not be up to the task based on qualitative concerns rather than quantitative ones.

In as much as it makes sense to disconnect everything from the fan hub controller and reconnect all the fans and RGB cables to their corresponding motherboard headers (if their cable lengths permit) , this may prove to be a task beyond the capability of the OP, risking voiding his warranty. Particularly if something unintended happens in the process.

Given such circumstances I'd simply return the computer and wash my hands of it altogether. Nobody should have to go through such grief over a "big ticket" item and be expected to solve such issues on their own. Besides, it's possible that even Best Buy may have known there was something wrong with it, and tried to fix it. Which might explain why it got to you as late as it did. You deserve better.

Hindsight is 20-20. But when personalities like Steve Burke talk, potential buyers need to listen. Something I posted nearly a month ago regarding not this particular model, but the builder (SkyTech) in general. And it ain't pretty.

 

[Misery]

risking voiding his warranty

Yeah, I was warned against this bit by my father, who once had to go through that with his car.... many, many years ago but it's one of those lessons that definitely stuck with him. The car CAUGHT ON FIRE somehow, and the company behind it... BMW... wouldnt go with the warranty because after buying the thing he'd had a car phone installed (remember those things? Like I said, many, many years ago, haha). Needless to say the phone had nothing at all to do with the fire.

BMW in the end were made to go along with it, but as he pointed out, it's pretty silly to go through that when you dont really have to. He told me that story yesterday. What gets me though is he still buys from them, but hey, what do I know...

Back to the machine though, me trying to mess with the components just aint a good idea anyway. I never learned much about hardware (never really had the chance or reason to do so), so while I can fix most pure software issues, I cant even install a bloody ram stick without something going wrong. A bit of a silly giant hole in my knowledge, really...

Anyway, here's a question for you, to aid in my own understanding: why would this machine work just fine for awhile... I think it was, two weeks... and then suddenly develop this issue? If it's a power thing, why doesnt that happen just right away from the start? Particularly as it was being used for heavy gaming and such (VR) within the first 24 hours. What causes the problem to take awhile to suddenly show itself?

 

[Outdated]

Here is where I ran in to a lot of problems with the desktop help bit.

History.

You mentioned that you were playing around with an app to adjust the lighting, then the problems happened. Probably part of the issue.

Try going through MSCONFIG and removing any instances of things not microtoss and see if you get any differences.

 

[MildredHubble]

Yeah, I was warned against this bit by my father, who once had to go through that with his car.... many, many years ago but it's one of those lessons that definitely stuck with him. The car CAUGHT ON FIRE somehow, and the company behind it... BMW... wouldnt go with the warranty because after buying the thing he'd had a car phone installed (remember those things? Like I said, many, many years ago, haha). Needless to say the phone had nothing at all to do with the fire.

BMW in the end were made to go along with it, but as he pointed out, it's pretty silly to go through that when you dont really have to. He told me that story yesterday. What gets me though is he still buys from them, but hey, what do I know...

Back to the machine though, me trying to mess with the components just aint a good idea anyway. I never learned much about hardware (never really had the chance or reason to do so), so while I can fix most pure software issues, I cant even install a bloody ram stick without something going wrong. A bit of a silly giant hole in my knowledge, really...

Anyway, here's a question for you, to aid in my own understanding: why would this machine work just fine for awhile... I think it was, two weeks... and then suddenly develop this issue? If it's a power thing, why doesnt that happen just right away from the start? Particularly as it was being used for heavy gaming and such (VR) within the first 24 hours. What causes the problem to take awhile to suddenly show itself?

To try and explain why this might happen... As the system is in use a small amount of heat is generated by smaller components. The CPU and a couple of other things that can't be passively cooled usually have heat sinks and fans.

The thing is that in areas of the main board for example hot spots develop. The chips and passive components are surface mounted with a small amount of solder. As the hotspots develop the PCB will warp slightly or sag and this can over time stress the solder joints causing small almost invisible cracks to develop.

So basically any one of thousands of tiny components can become poorly attached and as the PCB heats up the contact area of the component becomes smaller and smaller. The smaller the connection the less conductive. The less conductive, the more heat, the more heat the greater the resistance, this causes a loop of more heat=more resistance=more heat.

The greater the resistance the more power is consumed. This can cause the power management in the system to cut the power. Or alternatively, the poorly connected component loses a vital connection until things cool again and the process repeats :-(

This definitely sounds like something the store should fix for you. So I would recommend taking it back and this time running cinebench or similar for at least three times the amount of time it usually take for the problem to manifest. This should hopefully take out of the equation the effect of moving it from one environment to another and hopefully trigger the problem so they sort it out for you It sounds like this cost quite a bit of money so it's the least they can do to keep you the customer happy!

 

[Misery]

three times the amount of time it usually take for the problem to manifest.

Well, that's the thing: once it has shut the fans off during use, they typically just STAY off. So, restarting the machine, it typically just manifests before Windows even starts.

Today also, the machine had been off and disconnected from everything for... probably a good 12 hours, and this time around they didnt come back on.

Try going through MSCONFIG and removing any instances of things not microtoss and see if you get any differences.

Aye, did that. Doesnt do anything either.

Though considering that the app was basically "hey make this bit here blue instead of red", it really shouldnt be doing that... not to mention it was always running from the very moment the PC was first turned on. So, all that happened there was choosing different colors. At a certain point though it started farting out "access errors" just out of nowhere.

On a side note, I did try booting into Fedora instead (once I remembered how to get the bios to do that). That didnt seem to have any effect. But I at least remembered how to make it happen... so there's that I guess.

 

[MildredHubble]

Well, that's the thing: once it has shut the fans off during use, they typically just STAY off. So, restarting the machine, it typically just manifests before Windows even starts.

Today also, the machine had been off and disconnected from everything for... probably a good 12 hours, and this time around they didnt come back on.





Aye, did that. Doesnt do anything either.

Though considering that the app was basically "hey make this bit here blue instead of red", it really shouldnt be doing that... not to mention it was always running from the very moment the PC was first turned on. So, all that happened there was choosing different colors. At a certain point though it started farting out "access errors" just out of nowhere.

On a side note, I did try booting into Fedora instead (once I remembered how to get the bios to do that). That didnt seem to have any effect. But I at least remembered how to make it happen... so there's that I guess.

Just out of interest, do you have an awful lot connected to USB right now? You mentioned that you use quite a lot of USB stuff I think in another post?

I'm just wondering if maybe the +5v rail is getting over burdened. If the RGB is communicating through usb and the power is a bit screwy due to lots of things pulling bus power you might see the sorts of errors you mentioned. Though you would see the same if the problem was as I said in my previous post.

The good thing though is you can test out this theory by starting with a bare minimum of usb devices and seeing how the system behaves.

It definitely sounds like something is not long for this world though. I think the guys who sold you it need to roll up their sleeves. Is it possible that they could just switch your storage onto a new system and then you would be off to the races, with hopefully no more issues?

 

[Misery]

Just out of interest, do you have an awful lot connected to USB right now? You mentioned that you use quite a lot of USB stuff I think in another post?

I'm just wondering if maybe the +5v rail is getting over burdened. If the RGB is communicating through usb and the power is a bit screwy due to lots of things pulling bus power you might see the sorts of errors you mentioned. Though you would see the same if the problem was as I said in my previous post.

The good thing though is you can test out this theory by starting with a bare minimum of usb devices and seeing how the system behaves.

It definitely sounds like something is not long for this world though. I think the guys who sold you it need to roll up their sleeves. Is it possible that they could just switch your storage onto a new system and then you would be off to the races, with hopefully no more issues?

Aye, I already tried that, everything non-essential is disconnected.

Also, here's another detail, the thing is reading the fans as still active. It's even giving me an RPM number, hanging around 3075 (took me forever to spot this in the bios despite it being in my face each time).

Much to my annoyance the next step is a freaking phone call, so.... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh

I hate doing that. Brings back memories of calling freaking Comcast all over again, used to need to do that all the bloody time...

 

[MildredHubble]

Aye, I already tried that, everything non-essential is disconnected.

Also, here's another detail, the thing is reading the fans as still active. It's even giving me an RPM number, hanging around 3075 (took me forever to spot this in the bios despite it being in my face each time).

Much to my annoyance the next step is a freaking phone call, so.... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh

I hate doing that. Brings back memories of calling freaking Comcast all over again, used to need to do that all the bloody time...

Ok well that's definitely to me a sign the system is faulty. The fan speed is read by a sensor built into the bearing sleeve. It kinda sounds like the reason it's reading that kind of speed is because its standing still so every time it samples it, the result looks like it's going full whack. So the brains of the outfit are still active. But the power is being killed or disconnected. I would guess it's a faulty MOSFET or it's becoming detached causing the fan etc to power down but the IC that reads it is still active (likely on +3v) on a different rail. If your usb stuff is happy. I'm going to tentatively rule out the PSU as I think if it was you would likely have seen some system instability by now (?) I'm guessing all is good just the fans and RGB? No spontaneous unmounting of storage or system hanging?

 

[Misery]

I'm guessing all is good just the fans and RGB? No spontaneous unmounting of storage or system hanging?

Yep, only the fans are screwy. Everything else works perfectly. Or so I assume, without the fans running I'm not exactly doing much with it.

Oh, also: I talked with their... "tech support" just a moment ago. I dont usually trust remote support to be of any use at all (again, been through Comcast many, many times, and it was always derp-tastic until the actual tech showed up), and... I wasnt proven wrong in this case.

I described the problem. The very first thing they did after I did so was try to get me to order a new cooling gizmo that is "better than the fans" (they dont even know anything about the PC at this point. I just told them how the fans had all stopped. That's how far along the conversation was). I point out that the machine is brand new, it has no reason to be doing any of this, so I'm not exactly looking to upgrade. Just looking to get it working like it should.

The following suggestion was to take it to the local Best Buy. Nothing in between. Nothing came of it beyond that either.

This, as opposed to when we DID take it there, where the guy actually had a look at it and gave a real suggestion to try out before attempting anything more major.

Right now the plan is take it back there tomorrow again.

And now it's time to shut it down again, cant be running this with no bloody fans on... I'll have to use the blasted iPad for internet today, which is a whole other bag of (completely insane) cats...

 

[Judge]

It sounds like the most prudent thing is to simply ask for your money back rather than play tag with technicians who probably cannot adequately help over such concerns over the phone. Keep in mind whatever suggestions or changes they may make buy them time- not you. Searching for possible component failure can be a time consuming job, whether it involves a simple component or a more complex and critical one.

Don't use it any more, and certainly don't attempt to make modifications on it. Just get your money back.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014

 

[MildredHubble]

Yep, only the fans are screwy. Everything else works perfectly. Or so I assume, without the fans running I'm not exactly doing much with it.

Oh, also: I talked with their... "tech support" just a moment ago. I dont usually trust remote support to be of any use at all (again, been through Comcast many, many times, and it was always derp-tastic until the actual tech showed up), and... I wasnt proven wrong in this case.

I described the problem. The very first thing they did after I did so was try to get me to order a new cooling gizmo that is "better than the fans" (they dont even know anything about the PC at this point. I just told them how the fans had all stopped. That's how far along the conversation was). I point out that the machine is brand new, it has no reason to be doing any of this, so I'm not exactly looking to upgrade. Just looking to get it working like it should.

The following suggestion was to take it to the local Best Buy. Nothing in between. Nothing came of it beyond that either.

This, as opposed to when we DID take it there, where the guy actually had a look at it and gave a real suggestion to try out before attempting anything more major.

Right now the plan is take it back there tomorrow again.

And now it's time to shut it down again, cant be running this with no bloody fans on... I'll have to use the blasted iPad for internet today, which is a whole other bag of (completely insane) cats...

Sounds to me that perhaps they have dealt with this problem before so they take a wait and see approach and if you call them about dodgy fans they send out an "upgrade". I would take it back, try to get them to switch it for a new system but say that if this one has the same problem you want a refund. Maybe get the manager to sign off on it, get them to put it on your receipt so no one gets confused about what was agreed later!

I hope that you get it sorted out and your iPad will keep you going in the meantime!

 

[Judge]

Sounds to me that perhaps they have dealt with this problem before

Indeed. Which might be why he didn't get the merchandise on time to begin with. Then when I read about so many issues lately with SkyTech builds...it all makes sense. Best Buy may have well known that this particular item can be trouble, but they want to make the sale anyways.

Sounds rotten, but if you follow YouTubers like Gamers' Nexus, you'll learn of some very underhanded practices by both manufacturers and retailers in the industry. Sucks, but it is what it is. Luckily there are a few entities on the net more than willing to publicy call them on such things and warn consumers.

For this kind of money the damn thing should fly and run optimally right out of the box.

 

[Rodafina]

This is so disappointing. You waited and waited for this machine and now this?

 

[Misery]

Sounds to me that perhaps they have dealt with this problem before so they take a wait and see approach and if you call them about dodgy fans they send out an "upgrade".

Honestly it wouldnt be quite so stupid to me if they'd gotten ANY info at all before saying anything. "Fans no work" is all I'd told them... didnt mention the model, any data about the PC, or the brand, or any thing regarding an account with the store, or anything even resembling proof that I'd even bought it there (and I had all that stuff ready to go, too). The sorts of things you expect "support" to ask for, right? Heck, generally you expect them to ask for stuff like account/purchase ID things before they even get to the part where you tell them the problem.

But nope, just BAM straight to HEY BUY MORE STUFF.

Like, at least TRY to put on a show...

Sounds rotten, but if you follow YouTubers like Gamers' Nexus, you'll learn of some very underhanded practices by both manufacturers and retailers in the industry.

Yeah, it doesnt surprise me, after years of watching the AAA side of the gaming industry and the actions of the Big Three as well, all of them getting more and more slimy, even freaking Nintendo at times... feh.

The hardware side of things having such problems just seems par for the course after that nonsense.


Honestly I'd say the most frustrating part of all of this is that the freaking Fry's shut down. No need for Best Buy or any of this stuff. You went to the Fry's, you had a long discussion with their tech guys about what you wanted, they walked you around the store (which was enormous) and pointed stuff out and answered questions, and you'd leave that day with a build order submitted that they came up with based on what you wanted. No weird nonsense, no stupid brands trying to jump in your face, no need for Youtube reviews or articles on the Net.

I did check out reviews actually, on that note. For this thing, I mean. I dont remember the channel, something "tech tips" I think it was (I aint good with names)... the problem with these reviews is the same problem that many major gaming reviews have: No good way to know how accurate they're going to be. Even some reviewers that truly have the best of intentions still end up giving an unhelpful review not because of their own actions, but because of trickery on the side of the one making the product (like certain gaming companies releasing something, waiting for reviews to drop, and THEN putting in the update that activates all the predatory MTX garbage when it's too late to change the reviews).

Even harder though when it's related to a subject you dont know much about. Software reviews? Sure, those make sense to me. Hardware reviews? May as well be trying to explain the finer points of a jet engine, I've no idea what to compare anything I'm hearing to, provided I know what I'm hearing to begin with (spoiler: I usually dont).

Which might be why he didn't get the merchandise

Er... just a small thing, uh, it's "she", actually.

I dont like correcting people on stuff like that, but... I'm told I need to be more assertive during friendly conversations. I've a bad habit of just sitting passively and saying nothing because I'm afraid of offending anyone, and then later someone is like "well why didnt you tell me that was wrong when I mentioned it before? SPEAK UP ALREADY"


Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway.

Don't use it any more, and certainly don't attempt to make modifications on it. Just get your money back.

The idea of just refunding the bloody thing has occurred to me, but my father wants to try to get the thing working first... he's a total "business guy" in terms of his approach to anything professional, so he expects the job to just get freaking done. Like, a fault on delivery or during manufacturing? He can handle that idea, he knows it happens sometimes even with the best devices and the best intentions. But he'll expect the fixing to then happen ASAP and happen correctly afterwards, because in his mind that's how business of this sort should be handled. And he's the one in control here, so... that's the route this is going as far as the next step.

For this kind of money the damn thing should fly and run optimally right out of the box.

Honestly with a price like that these bloody gizmos should also answer the doorbell and make me sandwiches.

It could be worse though... it could be cost VS value of the freaking iPad. Now THERE is a salty subject as far as I'm concerned. Dunno what I was thinking with that one. So bloody expensive for a device by a company who keeps an iron grip on it even after you freaking buy it. Ugh. That's been on my mind lately, this stupid problem keeps reminding me of it. I shoulda bought a non-Apple tablet, but noooooooo....

 

[Judge]

Fry's Electronics. Oh my, some great memories. I still recall the day I found out that the area where I lived (Wlanut Creek) would have a Fry's in Concord, just a few miles up the freeway. It was like having Disneyland next door.

For a number of years I could build entire computers with one-stop shopping at Fry's. And the DVD collection they had...amazing.

Losing close access to Fry's was the one thing I regretted in moving to Nevada. Though with a two hour drive in good weather I could go to the Fry's in Rocklin. Did that a few times over the years.

Amazon is convenient, but I can't really do one-stop shopping for everything. I won't buy anything from them unless they are both the shipper and the seller. Often forcing me to split long lists of computer hardware with both Amazon and Newegg. Still, it was nice to deal with people over the counter who actually knew what they were talking about when it came to high tech. That much was great about Fry's many years ago. Oddly enough the last Fry's I was in was in Las Vegas.

 

[Misery]

And now the whole company is just... gone.

I tell ya, I was not particularly pleased upon originally hearing that news. Because... you know, Best Buy. I mean seriously there's not a single other bloody option around here.... feh. And they arent even a fraction as good as what the Fry's used to be.

As for Amazon.... just... ugh. Yeah, I think "ugh" sums up my thoughts on that.

 

[Judge]

And now the whole company is just... gone.

I tell ya, I was not particularly pleased upon originally hearing that news. Because... you know, Best Buy. I mean seriously there's not a single other bloody option around here.... feh. And they arent even a fraction as good as what the Fry's used to be.

As for Amazon.... just... ugh. Yeah, I think "ugh" sums up my thoughts on that.

Yeah. I can totally relate to your sentiments. At least with Fry's more often than not it wasn't hard to find a salesperson who could- and would genuinely guide you through what components to buy, or have them build it for you. That much was true. A great situation- while it lasted. Now all that's left are the same players with both good and bad reputations who still seek to deliver what appears to be a good deal for the least possible cost wholesale, and the highest cost retail that they can get away with in a competitive market. Leaving most customers like yourself high and dry in the process.

The simple solution being one that's more often then not a "deal-breaker" for most gamers. To just give it up, and settle for a system with more moderate performance that are far more likely to run adequately out of the box compared to more complete systems that have or should have a tremendous focus on thermodynamics. In a marketplace where neither CPU or GPU manufacturers or software publishers/developers really give a damn whether or not you have the proper setup to make them run cool enough to perform optimally without being forced to throttle down at some point.

It's preposterous, IMO. It's why I wisely chose to avoid gaming, and stick to what I enjoy most- graphics manipulation through the use of a very old but full version of Photoshop and general web browsing. Occasionally looking to the lower right of my operating system interface to notice my four CPU cores seem to hover between 30 to 36 degrees Celsius. In other words, my system isn't even breaking a sweat in comparison, and goes all day long like this.

Personally observing the PC gaming market is like watching end-stage capitalism. A revolution that continues to devour its own children. For me, staying away from gaming and migrating to Linux is like seeing Rocky on the steps of the museum with both fists raised. - I win.

With the only real compromise under such circumstances being to abandon the PC and choose a Sony Playstation console game. Where the hardware is dedicated to the software it runs.

Sorry for the extended rant. But the truth is that I feel sorry for PC gamers. Having worked in the business many years ago I have a very clear understanding of how they as pushers, relate to you as their addicts and little else.