Linguistics

[Christian T]

Hi to all,

I was wondering if anyone else out there shares my passion for the history of words and sayings, patterns of everyday speech, similarities and differences across different languages and how children learn a language.

An example of a pattern I find interesting: the extensions of so many words are used much more often than the words themselves.

eg. norm-normal, awe-awesome, mediate-immediately, credible-incredible

words are hard to contain - connotations can fly anywhere.

If anyone found this interesting, please say so!

 

[Bay]

I am also fascinated by words, etymology, and how they evolve.

 

[King_Oni]

In general, yes I like linguistics.

Mostly interested in slang and cants (and to some extent; where it comes from, and how and if it's used nowadays). The same goes for dialects (which eventually could be considered slang in the regional sense; especially if they're not "official"). I'm also interested in the more fictional languages like Klingon and Nadsat for example.

But language is not a primary, big interest of mine. I like to read up on it every now and then, study a bit of language whenever I have the motivation (currently learning Italian; since a few cants I read into have it's origin partially there). And to be honest, the entire thing, the etymology of words isn't really connected to grammar and spelling for a big part I feel, which I why I'd probably have a better time learning words and looking where it stems from rather than applying it as a spoken language.

 

[Selcouth]

YES, I love linguistics. The way languages are related, the way if you know one language, you can immediately begin to decode many others, the way people's psychology affects the way they speak, tone and inflection and rhythm and connotation....everything. I'm very glad to meet other people who are as fascinated by this as I am.

 

[Christian T]

I'm currently learning French, which I love. What do you find difficult/hard/interesting about Italian?

Also, with

And to be honest, the entire thing, the etymology of words isn't really connected to grammar and spelling for a big part I feel, which I why I'd probably have a better time learning words and looking where it stems from rather than applying it as a spoken language.

I don't really understand what you meant. It sounded to me like you contradicted yourself there.

 

[Christian T]

I'm also very happy to meet other linguistic enthusiasts, and am fascinated by the same things as you.

I find it interesting that we make a psychological link between temperature + hardness and social proximity.
Stone cold = an impenetrable human being with no compassion
Frosty = callous and unfeeling
Warm = softer, gooier, someone you'd like to have a platonic relationship with
Smokin' hot = someone with sexual appeal

I think we tend to look for metaphors that can relate abstract concepts to the physical world and make them more understandable, eg a musical note described as high or low.

 

[King_Oni]

I'm currently learning French, which I love. What do you find difficult/hard/interesting about Italian?

Also, with


I don't really understand what you meant. It sounded to me like you contradicted yourself there.

Italian to me is at the moment a bare neccesity (and will probably look into spanish in a while) just for the sake of that some so-called thieves cants which were used years ago, heavily rely on italian and spanish basics. A big one I'm still reading into a bit is Polari, which started back in the victorian age, and evolved as slang for gay men in Britain until the 1960's. This because it was somewhat against the law to be gay until then and they had their "own language". At least that's from what I understood.

The software I'm using to learn it, isn't that good I feel. Yes, it's good for vocabulary, but with languages I never really stumble upon those things, it's more that proper grammar is a problem, and that's something most software doesn't teach you well. So I might look into that somewhere else. Just repeating what the program tells me isn't learning... especially on something like grammar which you have to understand rather than just copy.

As for other languages I read into every now and then; Bargoens, which is a dutch thieves cant (with a lot of yiddish influences) and, since I know a lot of german (live on the dutch/german border) and my local dialect is heavily influenced by german, I can manage pretty fine with at least reading (and perhaps even speaking) Pensylvania deitsch (spoken by a fair share of amish people in the northeasten part of the US), which is also related to german for a large part.

But also here... I can read it (and thus understand it fine), applying it myself in conversation or writing might be different. I'm quite sure I'd fail in grammar use. I have no clue how off my english grammar is, since I do that intuitively, same as dutch and german (which are the other languages I use on a pretty much daily basis).

As to the "contradiction" you thought I made. I care more from where a word comes from historywise. Eventually how it has evolved over years (and slang is pretty much the best example of this). I don't feel that applying the correct form of "you're/your" for example, is related to whatever exotic word you can think of. Besides... spelling of those "exotic" words... sometimes even the degenerate form of spelling the word becomes new slang. The prime example will be so-called internet slang.

 

[Christian T]

This is all very interesting to hear. You do sound very knowledgeable I must say.

Indeed. It's actually very much a sign of good learning when a child incorrectly conjugates an irregular verb (eg. I runned across the beach) because it shows they are recongising a pattern, and not just imitating.

Grammar is certainly a very complex aspect of language. That's why I'm determined never to get into the habit of just chucking paragraphs into google translate and letting a computer handle it for me.

I'm quite sure I'd fail in grammar use. I have no clue how off my english grammar is

I think your English grammar is almost perfect. It's just subtle nuances - like "Eventually how it has evolved over years" when "How it has evolved over the years" sounds more natural, and the distinction between the modal auxiliaries "would" and "will" - that are a bit off.

 

[Selcouth]

I'm also very happy to meet other linguistic enthusiasts, and am fascinated by the same things as you.

I find it interesting that we make a psychological link between temperature + hardness and social proximity.
Stone cold = an impenetrable human being with no compassion
Frosty = callous and unfeeling
Warm = softer, gooier, someone you'd like to have a platonic relationship with
Smokin' hot = someone with sexual appeal

I think we tend to look for metaphors that can relate abstract concepts to the physical world and make them more understandable, eg a musical note described as high or low.

As for those metaphors, I think it's because, for example, a stone is impenetrable, and something cold is usually unpleasant to be around, while with something softer it's easier to get to its heart, and a warmer thing is more pleasant to be around. In the present day, however, and in metaphors that have evolved recently, I see less and less logical links between parts of a metaphor. To give one example, "gay" (which means happy or carefree) to mean "homosexual," still in a time where homosexuality was frowned upon. I don't understand how these two words came to be synonyms for one another.

@KingOni - I actually didn't know of Polari. It sounds fascinating, especially the circumstances it arose in. Do you know if it is a "full" language, or just simply extensive slang or "code words?"

To pick up proper grammar, I'd recommend either conversing with a fluent speaker or reading extensively in that language until the grammar becomes intuitive. You could also always just memorize the grammar rules, but most languages have so many rules - and exceptions - that it's very difficult to do so.

 

[Christian T]

As for those metaphors, I think it's because, for example, a stone is impenetrable, and something cold is usually unpleasant to be around, while with something softer it's easier to get to its heart, and a warmer thing is more pleasant to be around.

Yes, that is what I was getting at.

I see less and less logical links between parts of a metaphor. To give one example, "gay" (which means happy or carefree) to mean "homosexual," still in a time where homosexuality was frowned upon. I don't understand how these two words came to be synonyms for one another.

Usually, if you research the history of a particular phrase, you can see the somewhat logical steps that were followed on the way the present day meaning.

"Gay", my linguistics teacher has told me, didn't really follow a natural progression to meaning "homosexual". It was an active choice by the homosexual community to attach that term to themselves because of its positive connotations, as they were sick of all the negativity that society had placed on them. However, the word has of course become quite defiled now, much like the German word "propaganda" which originally simply meant "information".

 

[Selcouth]

Usually, if you research the history of a particular phrase, you can see the somewhat logical steps that were followed on the way the present day meaning.

"Gay", my linguistics teacher has told me, didn't really follow a natural progression to meaning "homosexual". It was an active choice by the homosexual community to attach that term to themselves because of its positive connotations, as they were sick of all the negativity that society had placed on them. However, the word has of course become quite defiled now, much like the German word "propaganda" which originally simply meant "information".

That is true. I did research it just now, in fact, and came up with the same conclusion that you present to me. (In fact, if I had a linguistics teacher, I would have asked them before.) It is also interesting how the word "gay", along with "queer", both perfectly normal words, came to acquire such derogatory connotation.

To go along with that topic, what do you think of the efforts to introduce a gender-neutral pronoun into English, both to accommodate people who don't identify as male or female or simply to refer to someone in a context which their gender is unknown or irrelevant?

 

[RubenX]

Oh yes... I found it very entertaining to do research about words and where they come from:

- "rock you like a hurricane" (from a Scorpions song)
- Hurricane - English Word - "A storm with a violent wind, in particular a tropical cyclone in the Caribbean".
- Huracan - Spanish Word - "A Tropical Storm with Violent Winds"
- Juracan - Taino Word (Old Caribbean Civilization)- Name of the god of Chaos and Disorder, believed to have the power to control weather.

"I bring chaos and disorder to your life" = "rock you like a hurricane" \o/

 

[Christian T]

That is true. I did research it just now, in fact, and came up with the same conclusion that you present to me. (In fact, if I had a linguistics teacher, I would have asked them before.) It is also interesting how the word "gay", along with "queer", both perfectly normal words, came to acquire such derogatory connotation.

To go along with that topic, what do you think of the efforts to introduce a gender-neutral pronoun into English, both to accommodate people who don't identify as male or female or simply to refer to someone in a context which their gender is unknown or irrelevant?

It is a shame about those two words that used to be so innocent, but that's how language can be. It's a little like the narrowing of the word "criticism" when its denotation is simply "judgement" good or bad. Four years ago when I was preparing a speech on Asperger's for my year level, I wanted to say that one of the traits I have is "speaking queerly", but thankfully my teacher made a light suggestion that I say "speaking oddly" instead.

As for the gender-neutral pronoun, I agree that it would be very beneficial for the reasons you outlined, and also for the sake of storytelling where you don't want to reveal the gender until later. Although, we do already use the plural third person for this purpose - eg "Someone just walked past, but I didn't see their face" but apparently that's informal.

 

[King_Oni]

@KingOni - I actually didn't know of Polari. It sounds fascinating, especially the circumstances it arose in. Do you know if it is a "full" language, or just simply extensive slang or "code words?"

To pick up proper grammar, I'd recommend either conversing with a fluent speaker or reading extensively in that language until the grammar becomes intuitive. You could also always just memorize the grammar rules, but most languages have so many rules - and exceptions - that it's very difficult to do so.

Polari is more slang and codewords rather than language. It uses a lot of words related to the culture it's being used in. And like I said, a fair share of italian, and a bit of "carny" language. Even the name Polari actually stems from the italian Parlare, which means "to speak".

There's a few books about them as well as a few websites that have vocabulary. I once went through the hassle of putting them all on file on my computer for easier reference, since some words have the same meaning. (and then my computer crashed)

For a small bit of Polari in recent media. The movie Velvet Goldmine, which takes place in 1970's London, has a short scene where people speak Polari.

Also, in the 60's the UK had a show called the Punch and Judy show... they incorporated a fair share.

To pick up proper grammar, I'd recommend either conversing with a fluent speaker or reading extensively in that language until the grammar becomes intuitive. You could also always just memorize the grammar rules, but most languages have so many rules - and exceptions - that it's very difficult to do so.

Myea... I live in a country, and my area even where people speak their native tongue really poorly, lol. That's probably also why in my region a lot of people are being seen as "stupid" since their dutch sounds so off (on top of an accent). So I kinda have to run into Italian people... which weirdly enough are not the people that run pizzajoints here, lol

 

[Selcouth]

Polari is more slang and codewords rather than language. It uses a lot of words related to the culture it's being used in. And like I said, a fair share of italian, and a bit of "carny" language. Even the name Polari actually stems from the italian Parlare, which means "to speak".

I see. I was kind of hoping it would be a full constructed language, such as Esperanto. What is your opinion on constructed languages?

It is a shame about those two words that used to be so innocent, but that's how language can be. It's a little like the narrowing of the word "criticism" when its denotation is simply "judgement" good or bad. Four years ago when I was preparing a speech on Asperger's for my year level, I wanted to say that one of the traits I have is "speaking queerly", but thankfully my teacher made a light suggestion that I say "speaking oddly" instead.

Yes, that's true. Connotation just attaches itself to words, and it's very hard to get rid of that.

Although, the words "gay" and "queer" are nowadays losing some of that connotation, with gay marriage being widely accepted (at least in America, I don't know about Australia) and the gay community often using "queer" as an umbrella term to refer to any LGBT person.

As for the gender-neutral pronoun, I agree that it would be very beneficial for the reasons you outlined, and also for the sake of storytelling where you don't want to reveal the gender until later. Although, we do already use the plural third person for this purpose - eg "Someone just walked past, but I didn't see their face" but apparently that's informal.

Yes; because using third-person plural is technically grammatically incorrect, many linguists shy away from it. As a temporary solution it's fine, but then the problem arises of distinguishing whether the object is one or multiple people, whereas a true singular pronoun would not have this problem. The struggle, really, is to create a pronoun that seems to have no bias towards either sex, is easy to pronounce, and will be easily accepted into society. If you haven't looked into this, here's a good and extensively analyzed blog on those pronouns: Gender Neutral Pronoun Blog

 

[Christian T]

Thanks for the link, Selcouth. I had a quick look and the possible uses of the gender neutral pronoun in fantasy and science-fiction stories struck me as particularly interesting. I'll read it more thoroughly later when I have the time.

Also

As a temporary solution it's fine, but then the problem arises of distinguishing whether the object is one or multiple people, whereas a true singular pronoun would not have this problem.

The number ambiguity hasn't been an issue in some languages. I know that in French, there are two second person pronouns: tu and vous.

Tu is exclusively singular and casual
Vous is either singular and formal, or plural

even though is the second person, and not the third person, I think it still shows that such ambiguity can be coped with.

Also, as quite a passionate naturalist, I wonder whether there's been any discussion over a relative pronoun that covers all beings with a conscious mind, so that we're not saying "the tiger that ate the deer" but something closer to "the tiger who ate the deer"

 

[King_Oni]

I see. I was kind of hoping it would be a full constructed language, such as Esperanto. What is your opinion on constructed languages?

Constructed languages are fine I think. The big problem lies in application. Can you expect people to learn a language in a short time and apply that instead of another one.. probably not, and that's the problem. What use is constructing a language, which foremost might be constructed for easier communication, if you can't get people to use it properly either.

Esperanto actually is a good example of something I'd like to see. While I never really got into it, I understood that it's grammar is easy. But then again, my native tongue is dutch... a language which is deemed quite difficult so it seems, and it's confusing, even to natives. It has more exceptions than rules, so I would welcome something that's more constant in spelling and grammar.

A big problem with what I adressed earlier, in putting a new language in a region, is that it might pose a threat to cultural identity of people. So that might be a reason why people don't jump onto it. And also... learning a new language as a society means society is pretty much on hold. Yes, one can learn a 2nd language and be bilingual, but isn't that pretty much what's happening already with English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Chinese (and it's dialects) and Japanese. I hardly know people who don't know at least 2 of any of those to some extent. Crossing out one and telling everyone "Learn Esperanto" might not fly.

A fine example of a constructed language which isn't used a lot since it's fictional might be Tengwar. It adds flavor and depth to Tolkiens Middle earth, but apart from that... and Klingon might be a similar example. But besides that, they're just a piece of linguistic art.

And as such I feel that Esperanto might end up more like that, just without artistic merrit.

 

[Soup]

I love linguistics too! The thing some critics say about Esperanto is that it borrowed heavily from European languages to the exclusion of languages from the 'non-white' world. Pundits say that the vast majority of communication between people is non-verbal. I wonder if some day we'll evolve beyond the need for a clumsy disorganized collection of baffling speech codes. Much of what people ramble on about is unnecessary any ways... Seems at odds with my fascination with words, writing & all aspects of linguistics...

Ever notice how tone & inflection can completely change the meaning & intention behind the same set of words? This also might affect the way Aspies have difficulty understanding what people sometimes mean when they tell us stuff. Some languages (like Mandarin) are deliberately tonal in nature whereby the same word (sounding the same to the ear) can have many entirely different definitions depending upon the tonal code used. I wonder if this linguistic feature makes communicating even more challenging for Mandarin speaking Aspies?

 

[Christian T]

I love linguistics too! The thing some critics say about Esperanto is that it borrowed heavily from European languages to the exclusion of languages from the 'non-white' world. Pundits say that the vast majority of communication between people is non-verbal. I wonder if some day we'll evolve beyond the need for a clumsy disorganized collection of baffling speech codes. Much of what people ramble on about is unnecessary any ways... Seems at odds with my fascination with words, writing & all aspects of linguistics...

Ever notice how tone & inflection can completely change the meaning & intention behind the same set of words? This also might affect the way Aspies have difficulty understanding what people sometimes mean when they tell us stuff. Some languages (like Mandarin) are deliberately tonal in nature whereby the same word (sounding the same to the ear) can have many entirely different definitions depending upon the tonal code used. I wonder if this linguistic feature makes communicating even more challenging for Mandarin speaking Aspies?

Interesting thought about spoken language becoming obsolete, but I still think it has some uses that will never die out. I always think verbal interviews are the best ways of absorbing interesting information from experts or participants in an interesting event. However, I do agree that it's mostly used for redundant banter.

Now, about Mandarin. These tonal codes, are they a bit like "present your presents to the birthday boy", or "are you content with the content of this letter" in English, or are they different.

In terms of general intonation, I completely understand what you mean. I think this is a very good example of its importance.

 

[Selcouth]

I agree about spoken language as well - it does have uses that will never die out. It's also interesting to remark how correct grammar is less and less relied upon in spoken English, while it is in written English. One can perhaps imagine a day when spoken English has degenerated into presenting only the key words of the sentence and omitting grammar, conjunctions, etc.

Actually, Mandarin's tonal codes distinguish one word from another. (I've been studying it for three years.) For example, "ma" with a flat tone means "mother," but with a sharp downwards tone it means "horse." Because of this, it's vital to get tones right when speaking, otherwise you could be saying something entirely different. I, however, never had any trouble with this (though I don't have the symptom of flat affect while speaking); it was just another set of rules to follow, and since they were delineated quite clearly by tonal markings on pinyin, all I had to do was memorize and verbalize them.

I'm actually very interested in prosody in general, and intonation's effect on words. Connotation vs. denotation and so on.