Leading women on

[Au Naturel]

I'd go with "underthinking".

Nothing you've said indicates you have any reason for guilt or remorse. so:

A. You may be doing things worthy of those reactions, but haven't made it clear here. I don't mean you should add details, but "leading people on" is routine in the 21st century. Trading attention for indications of some future benefit (short term or long term) is no more or less bad than "dating for the free food".
So there's no sign so far of any bad behavior on your side.

B. You may be reacting to being taught or old that generally normal 21st century behavior isn't acceptable for you. There's a lot of this going around. Pay no attention to traditional behavioral principles in the dating space - the old rules are long gone.. Apply the "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" principle.

Social media runs on attention and validation (among other things, many of which are worse). Based on what you've said, you're a typical participant, well within 21st century norms.. Possibly with some unresolved contradictions due to (B).

I'd suggest you try to make an accurate judgement of your own online behavior, based on:
1. From (A), are you within current norms?
2. From (B), are you reacting to learned moral standards that are no longer relevant in society as a whole?
3. Are you uncomfortable with your cations because you're violating your own "internal" moral standards?

If it's (1) or (2), lose the guilt
If it's (3), stop doing what makes you uncomfortable. "Fighting yourself" isn't good.

I agree, in general. One exception I see is that autistic people often don't know the norms. Another is that the norms vary from one person to the next. Autistic people are often not good at picking up clues as to whether the other person is just having fun, putting up with you because they are afraid to say they aren't enjoying it, or taking it seriously.

Society as a whole has very few universal norms. Norms in rural Iowa are a million miles from norms in San Francisco.

 

[Levitator]

 

[JJ19]

"Leading a woman on" is an ego boost. Proving to yourself that you are desirable. You don't follow through because then you wouldn't be able to keep leading women on. A person who is secure in their desirability - or doesn't care about desirability - doesn't do this.

Is it always an ego boost though? Can it just giving into lust and careless hedonistic fun without thought of long-term consequences. I'm not saying the latter is good either. It clearly isn't. Just trying to find out what the driver was.

 

[JJ19]

But then... it occurs to me, what do you mean by "leading a woman on?" Leading someone on is developing a relationship with a promise of future returns that you have no intention of fulfilling. It is a kind of fraud and misrepresentation. If there are no expectations, explicit or implicit, you are not leading anyone on. You're just flirting. Are their feelings getting hurt?

Flirting without ulterior motives can be innocent. It can be a fun game for two. But if you're obsessive about it, even if you aren't hurting anyone, you need to think about your motivation.

Should have read your follow up first. I didn't promise anything no, it was mostly generic flirting online between people that were incompatible, ages apart and distances apart. I think both parties were engaging in it for the wrong reason. Whether it was ego boost or giving into lust and pleasure for me, and the other having dissatisfaction with things in their life and looking for outlet/solution external to themselves. When I stopped it all with one of them they even said I never promised anything so they can't complain, so maybe I am overthinking the leading on part to an extent.

 

[JJ19]

To add on to Hypnalis and Tom's posts. You are not doing anything that isn't typical at all. I still hold on to my previous statement from your other thread, in regards to this.

I think the only thing that is spectrum specific is understanding socail connections and the etiquette that comes with it. It can, and will be, more far more confusing as far as dating. That's socail interaction on European Extreme mode(if you get the game difficulty reference) for us NDs. When general socail interaction is already hard for us.

Alot of this is because NTs tend to look for Red Flags. At least experienced daters will. The younger, inexperienced ones, are all going to be like you, for the most part.

Not to say experienced NDs wouldn't keep an eye out for Red Flags too. But a NT and ND definition of Red Flags, maybe different in alot of ways.

Either way. This is something you have to figure out and navigate on your own, sadly. We can provide advice and suggestions. But it's up to you to take the appropriate actions.

I appreciate the input but no the gaming reference went way over my head I'm afraid. And yes you are right. Ultimately I have to figure it out. Sadly with self-reflection I have little success. I don't know why. Not sure I have a lot of issues/neuro disorders coupled with lots of traumas that I neglected and let build up too long that I'm just genuinely confused and don't know what's what, or that I possibly know more but am scared to face difficult truths. Neither a good prospect. But I'll try.

 

[JJ19]

Yes I cannot help it either, I get sad and need a bit of love and attention
But I cannot understand why nothing makes me feel human again.
But yes in the moment I enjoy the attention but wonder whether the other person enjoys it.
It is a painful issue I get tired of fighting.
I just want some love and still think I am maybe asexual not sure but do not want worse in my life.
I think I have struggled with asexual and demisexual behaviour but I do not want to go through even worse.
I have already been through enough.

I don't know if this applies to you. I think if we can't accept and love ourselves it's unlikely we can get that from other people. And it's possible in my case, I'm still trying to piece it all together, that we can try and look for external validation not even in terms of wanting an ego boost, but for comfort and distractions. And it's a fake interaction in a way which obviously doesn't fix any problems.

 

[JJ19]

I'd go with "underthinking".

Nothing you've said indicates you have any reason for guilt or remorse. so:

A. You may be doing things worthy of those reactions, but haven't made it clear here. I don't mean you should add details, but "leading people on" is routine in the 21st century. Trading attention for indications of some future benefit (short term or long term) is no more or less bad than "dating for the free food".
So there's no sign so far of any bad behavior on your side.

B. You may be reacting to being taught or old that generally normal 21st century behavior isn't acceptable for you. There's a lot of this going around. Pay no attention to traditional behavioral principles in the dating space - the old rules are long gone.. Apply the "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" principle.

Social media runs on attention and validation (among other things, many of which are worse). Based on what you've said, you're a typical participant, well within 21st century norms.. Possibly with some unresolved contradictions due to (B).

I'd suggest you try to make an accurate judgement of your own online behavior, based on:
1. From (A), are you within current norms?
2. From (B), are you reacting to learned moral standards that are no longer relevant in society as a whole?
3. Are you uncomfortable with your cations because you're violating your own "internal" moral standards?

If it's (1) or (2), lose the guilt
If it's (3), stop doing what makes you uncomfortable. "Fighting yourself" isn't good.

I sure as hell don't want it to be routine for me though. I don't think it's a good behaviour at all. I will have to reflect more to see if I did or not. It is a complicated situation with a long back story, so you are right when you say I might not be providing enough details for it to be clear to people on here.

 

[Xinyta]

I appreciate the input but no the gaming reference went way over my head I'm afraid.

It's perfectly fine. To put context to it. European Extreme mode is a game difficulty in Metal Gear Soild 3 Snake Eater. That difficulty involves not being detected during stealth sections. If the area goes into high alert, it's a instant game over.

Dating can be the same way, because of how we present ourselves as people with Autism. NTs can be rather perceptive to quarks and oddities we unknowing present in our body language and in how we speak. We will not see it as abnormal, but NTs generally will. Add low self-esteem and that really messes it up alot too.

And yes you are right. Ultimately I have to figure it out. Sadly with self-reflection I have little success. I don't know why. Not sure I have a lot of issues/neuro disorders coupled with lots of traumas that I neglected and let build up too long that I'm just genuinely confused and don't know what's what, or that I possibly know more but am scared to face difficult truths. Neither a good prospect. But I'll try.

Hard truths are difficult for anyone. But I do think it's a bit harder for us. As recognizing these things means we need to change and adjust our expectations and perceptions. Though the problem is that we NDs are going to be instinctually adverse to that kinda change, because it tampers with our compartmentalized world veiw. Things that change that, will be overwhelming and scary.

But we have to still try to make the attempt to try and adjust our world veiw to improve wellbeing and ourselves as people. Despite it being more of a mountainous climb for us, than it seems to be for NTs.

 

[Magna]

@JJ19 Question: Do any of the women you flirt with online ask you for money or do you pay any money to any of the women you flirt with online?

 

[JJ19]

@JJ19 Question: Do any of the women you flirt with online ask you for money or do you pay any money to any of the women you flirt with online?

No, it's nothing like that.

 

[Magna]

No, it's nothing like that.

Thanks for answering. I wondered because there are so so many poor souls (males) that actually bankroll online women they've never met when ultimately they're being extorted.

 

[JJ19]

Thanks for answering. I wondered because there are so so many poor souls (males) that actually bankroll online women they've never met when ultimately they're being extorted.

Yes I have many faults, including questionable online interactions but I fortunately I wouldn't go in for that.

 

[Au Naturel]

Is it always an ego boost though? Can it just giving into lust and careless hedonistic fun without thought of long-term consequences. I'm not saying the latter is good either. It clearly isn't. Just trying to find out what the driver was.

"Lust and careless hedonistic fun without thought of long-term consequences" is perfectly fine. That is how the internet often works. As long as the attitude is mutual, it isn't "leading a woman on." A problem arises if one person makes promises without intent to follow through and the other takes them seriously.

 

[Hypnalis]

I sure as hell don't want it to be routine for me though. I don't think it's a good behaviour at all. I will have to reflect more to see if I did or not. It is a complicated situation with a long back story, so you are right when you say I might not be providing enough details for it to be clear to people on here.

I suggest you forget about applying any "societal rules of behavior" to yourself.
There is no longer any foundation for the "pre-hormonal-birth-control era" ruleset for romantic relationships. And in a meaningful sense the people who accepted those rules are long gone too.

The behavior is still possible of course, and there are cultures and subcultures that still follow the old guidelines. But the English-speaking world as a whole does not.
So "doing the right thing" in this domain isn't possible - there's no "right thing".

Instead, figure out what's right for you. This may well be a case where you should follow your instincts. It might be wise to avoid any romantic interactions online.

As I said in an earlier post, the majority of it is driven by insincere people looking for attention and validation from anonymous strangers. Most of your potential contacts are adults trapped in a "pre-teen" emotional state ("The Little Princess"), not worth talking to on their best day, and absolutely untrustworthy.

You can't be at fault for talking to people who are just playacting - the bar for "acceptable behavior" is probably far below what you do.

But it will tend to regress you back to a pre-adult (if you're lucky, "Prince Charming") mindset too. In the short-term. other peoples' stupidity can be contagious if you take it seriously.

 

[Magna]

I suggest you forget about applying any "societal rules of behavior" to yourself.
There is no longer any foundation for the "pre-hormonal-birth-control era" ruleset for romantic relationships. And in a meaningful sense the people who accepted those rules are long gone too.

The behavior is still possible of course, and there are cultures and subcultures that still follow the old guidelines. But the English-speaking world as a whole does not.
So "doing the right thing" in this domain isn't possible - there's no "right thing".

^ These are good and valid points. Even though the people who lived by the traditional ruleset for romantic relationships that lasted for many centuries are now dead, we're still in a transition as a society which is what @JJ19 is wrangling with. The youth of today practice exactly the opposite of the traditional ruleset, but they still have parents and often grandparents who remember their experiences of traditional romantic relationships and likely are telling stories of such. Wait another generation or two and even remembrance of the "old ways" will be gone.

It seems clear that humans are simply reverting back to our primate nature, our animal nature brought about by purposeful social/behavioral manipulation and modification which benefits a few to the detriment of the many. Look to our related family members of the animal kingdom, the other Great Apes and see that humans are just acting more primal.

 

[JJ19]

^ These are good and valid points. Even though the people who lived by the traditional ruleset for romantic relationships that lasted for many centuries are now dead, we're still in a transition as a society which is what @JJ19 is wrangling with. The youth of today practice exactly the opposite of the traditional ruleset, but they still have parents and often grandparents who remember their experiences of traditional romantic relationships and likely are telling stories of such. Wait another generation or two and even remembrance of the "old ways" will be gone.

It seems clear that humans are simply reverting back to our primate nature, our animal nature brought about by purposeful social/behavioral manipulation and modification which benefits a few to the detriment of the many. Look to our related family members of the animal kingdom, the other Great Apes and see that humans are just acting more primal.

I think it's a terrible direction things are going in to be honest and I hope it can be reversed buy no faith there. I will try and maintain standards. I may have failed multiple times up to now, but I think it's important to fight this strange peculiar trend which will likely be bad long term, in my humble opinion of course.

 

[Magna]

I think it's a terrible direction things are going in to be honest and I hope it can be reversed buy no faith there. I will try and maintain standards. I may have failed multiple times up to now, but I think it's important to fight this strange peculiar trend which will likely be bad long term, in my humble opinion of course.

I agree with you that it's a bad direction. Men and women both are duped into thinking that "free love" leads to ultimate happiness when it many cases it simply leads to short term base-level satisfaction (like unsubstantial fast food, really) and long term loneliness and singlehood. Large investment firms are literally investing in the things that older single women tend to buy such as wine, beauty products and cat food anticipating a much larger single woman population in the not too distant future.

There's simply no question that humans are gullible and far far too easily manipulated for our own good as a species. The reality of all of this though is that: We reap what we sow.

 

[Hypnalis]

It seems clear that humans are simply reverting back to our primate nature, our animal nature brought about by purposeful social/behavioral manipulation and modification which benefits a few to the detriment of the many. Look to our related family members of the animal kingdom, the other Great Apes and see that humans are just acting more primal.

We're generally in agreement, but I'd like to add a detail:

We're on a "constructed" path, but not towards our primal nature. The path is vaguely towards freedom from our primal nature. Vaguely, because it's not like a road, built on the best possible path to a clear objective. There are tactical objectives, but there's no strategic plan - just a vision.

This "freedom" is the "freedom from responsibility" kind, not the "freedom from oppression" kind (sold the other way around of course, but that's just part of the game).

Where we're going is a second-rate kind of transhumanism. The path is random, and the result "second-rate" because we're nowhere near having the tech to achieve it.
This means that when we correct (and we will) our primal nature (which remains immutable for now) will indeed reassert itself.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I have never flirted with a member of the opposites sex but they have flirted with me as lot over the years. Not something that appeals to me.

 

[aspieoutlaw89]

i can't imagine women doing that to me