Just a question. Why is everyone so scared of Rapture or Armageddon?

[Neonatal RRT]

For useful discussions about whether the universe can come from nothing, and whether it might end up as nothing, or indeed whether perhaps it cycles (big bang - expansion - heat death - big bang...) you can read works by:

Lawrence Krauss
Frank Wilczek
Roger Penrose

There's nothing about a finite universe that implies it is expanding into some other space that already exists. In fact, the mainstream view of this right now is that space and time (and spacetime) are properties of the universe and do not exist outside of the universe.

Lawrence Krauss has a very accessible book titled "A Universe From Nothing" which discusses this.

Frank Wilczek's book "Fundamentals, Ten Keys to Reality" is similarly fascinating and succeeds in simplifying things without losing the important bits.

Penrose in particular has tried to extend this view to look at the physics that might apply as the universe expands. He developed a cyclical universe theory which suggests that as the universe cools and becomes less dense, the concept of scale ceases to have any meaning - so a large universe of almost nil density is mathematically equivalent to a small universe (singularity) of infinite density (which will explode with a big bang). He found some tentative evidence for this in the cosmic microwave background radiation, but by his own admission there is nothing anywhere near conclusive yet. However, last time Penrose put forward a theory it turned out to be true... and he won a nobel prize for it.

Now you're tapping into ideas that make no logical sense, this idea that "something" can come from "nothing" theory. On the face of it, it doesn't sound like physics, at all. Sounds like some very elaborate explanation for something no one understands yet. In other words, my BS alarm is going off right now. In my experience as an educator, most things, even those complicated, intricate, and elaborate, at some point, can be boiled down to something rather simple. Never-the-less, I will have to read those authors with an open mind. Thanks.

 

[Wolfnox]

I am cautious about taking some of the descriptions and explanations within the Bible literally,

On this I say take it at face value. Faith like a little child. Trust what you read in it as fact. Consider the words and think upon them in that light.

If there is a "void" as we understand it, I may be inclined to interpret it as simply another dimension that we cannot experience.

If you ever try to picture a void of truly nothing your mind will give under the strain. I’ve tried it many times. The closest we get is a dark coal mind shaft that has collapsed. No light. But, you can still breathe and feel rock.
Take away the feelings and rock and shape and light. Erase the stars, planets, and gases.
You will be close then. And your mind will revolt and abhor the image.

Even within the metaphysical world, "something" never comes from "nothing".

You’re still using human knowledge and logic to define this process. To use this is truth as we understand it.
To God it is not.

I've opened those doors and windows in my mind to accept the possibility of beings and consciousnesses beyond our realm, but I do it within the context and perspective of science. When I say this, it is with the understanding that both can co-exist. People who completely separate science from theology probably haven't taken a "deep dive" into understanding how something actually works down at the subatomic level. When you start to have that kind of understanding, then undoubtedly one begins to question is there the possibility of "intelligent design".

Don’t do it wholly in the concept of science alone.You need bible understanding and faith along with it. God can and has undone human wisdom and understanding with his miracles. The foundation of science stands upon the learnings of man threw out the ages. But, it can be undone in an instant.
I watched and read many cases of events that made no sense scientifically but, happened anyway.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

On this I say take it at face value. Faith like a little child. Trust what you read in it as fact. Consider the words and think upon them in that light.

If you ever try to picture a void of truly nothing your mind will give under the strain. I’ve tried it many times. The closest we get is a dark coal mind shaft that has collapsed. No light. But, you can still breathe and feel rock.
Take away the feelings and rock and shape and light. Erase the stars, planets, and gases.
You will be close then. And your mind will revolt and abhor the image.

You’re still using human knowledge and logic to define this process. To use this is truth as we understand it.
To God it is not.

Don’t do it wholly in the concept of science alone.You need bible understanding and faith along with it. God can and has undone human wisdom and understanding with his miracles. The foundation of science stands upon the learnings of man threw out the ages. But, it can be undone in an instant.
I watched and read many cases of events that made no sense scientifically but, happened anyway.

This is where we separate a bit. I have never experienced "faith" or "belief" in anything or anyone, ever. I can come up with ideas and theories just fine, but I don't fall into the trap "believing" until I've tested it a bit, and if I can't test it, it remains nothing more. This concept that, "We are incapable of understanding God." is quite interesting considering our desire to become closer to Him knowing full well that we never will understand. Seems like the definition of "futility". I try to keep my mind open to the possibilities, but in practice, in my life, I have to hold on to what I actually know, my human logic, to keep me grounded. I certainly am not against many of the core beliefs of many religions. In fact, I tend to embrace many of them. I don't discount people who are devout believers, in fact, many of my favorite people in my life are of the similar mindset as you. Perhaps it's my lack of bonding. Perhaps it's the fact that I hate sitting in large rooms with many people (church). Perhaps I tend to fall back on things I can quantify, see, feel, touch, taste, etc. On the other hand, I do keep an interest in the possibilities of different realms/dimensions that may help explain the metaphysical and paranormal, as well as, theoretical physics. Like I said, these are ideas, nothing more. This idea that, "Well, you just have to accept it, have faith, and then everything will become more clear." will never sit well with me.

 

[tazz]

Now you're tapping into ideas that make no logical sense, this idea that "something" can come from "nothing" theory. On the face of it, it doesn't sound like physics, at all. Sounds like some very elaborate explanation for something no one understands yet. In other words, my BS alarm is going off right now. In my experience as an educator, most things, even those complicated, intricate, and elaborate, at some point, can be boiled down to something rather simple. Never-the-less, I will have to read those authors with an open mind. Thanks.

With respect they only make no sense to someone who doesn't understand the math and the physics. Please note I include myself in that - I'm no expert, I'm an amateur at this. But my point is still valid... the way physics works is different to our everyday experience. To someone who's studied it for decades and knows what the observations actually tell us about stuff, and indeed to those people who have actually done the experiments and seen things with their own eyes, it makes perfect sense.

Frank Wilczek talks a lot about the definition of nothing, for example. When you say that something coming from nothing makes no sense - I agree, it makes no sense in our normal understanding of what nothing is. But it makes sense to him, partly because he's using a much more precise and nuanced definition of "nothing". In our general use of language, the word "nothing" kinda means "empty". As in: a room that contains nothing is empty. But trying to imagine a room that doesn't even contain space or time is somewhat more difficult.

Also, apologies if I wasn't clear, but none of these people are suggesting that there is any proof that the universe came from nothing. They are well respected scientists who are regarded as part of the mainstream physics community. They are at the forefront of mainstream research and putting forward ideas about where this research might go next. And they're writing books about their research and ideas so amateurs like me can tag along. Calling "BS" from the sidelines could be a little presumptive - but from what I've seen in your other posts on this forum I think you're coming from a place of healthy skepticism which is a good thing.

Anyway, I kinda strayed off topic a little. My main point in response to your comment was: The math regarding space, time and spacetime is very well understood and proven. We know the universe is expanding but nothing in that observation implies that it is expanding into something. So that's really the point I wanted to make - because you said that an expanding universe implies it is expanding into something, but it doesn't - and that is based on observation not a theory or a guess.

It's quite possible it is expanding into something... but that is not implied by the fact that it is expanding.

 

[Gerontius]

There is one way where people can get through religion without being afraid of rapture/end times stuff anyway.

Spoiler

some religious people like the Catholics and the Episcopalians do not believe in it. I know I sure don't.

 

[tazz]

Why is everyone so scared of Rapture or Armageddon?

In my experience, people don't seem to care, even the religious folk. I think it's one of those things that is part of their belief system, but they don't think it's gonna happen this week and they've got that school thing to go to, and they need to visit their aunt, and put the trash out, and get that worrying knocking sound in the car sorted out... sorry, what were we talking about?

 

[Wolfnox]

This is where we separate a bit. I have never experienced "faith" or "belief" in anything or anyone, ever. I can come up with ideas and theories just fine, but I don't fall into the trap "believing" until I've tested it a bit, and if I can't test it, it remains nothing more. This concept that, "We are incapable of understanding God." is quite interesting considering our desire to become closer to Him knowing full well that we never will understand. Seems like the definition of "futility". I try to keep my mind open to the possibilities, but in practice, in my life, I have to hold on to what I actually know, my human logic, to keep me grounded. I certainly am not against many of the core beliefs of many religions. In fact, I tend to embrace many of them. I don't discount people who are devout believers, in fact, many of my favorite people in my life are of the similar mindset as you. Perhaps it's my lack of bonding. Perhaps it's the fact that I hate sitting in large rooms with many people (church). Perhaps I tend to fall back on things I can quantify, see, feel, touch, taste, etc. On the other hand, I do keep an interest in the possibilities of different realms/dimensions that may help explain the metaphysical and paranormal, as well as, theoretical physics. Like I said, these are ideas, nothing more. This idea that, "Well, you just have to accept it, have faith, and then everything will become more clear." will never sit well with me.

Let me say this. I’m a realist. It’s never came easy for me to just have faith. But, people do it all the time without knowing it. For instance if I made plans for tomorrow I’d go to bed believing I’d wake up tomorrow. Same as everyone else. But, that doesn’t mean I will. It’s never a certainty. No action in life is.

 

[tazz]

Umm... that's not faith. That's evidence based. It's perfectly rational to conclude you'll most likely wake up tomorrow based on the evidence you have.

 

[Wolfnox]

Umm... that's not faith. That's evidence based. It's perfectly rational to conclude you'll most likely wake up tomorrow based on the evidence you have.

Still got believe it will happen though. Like it did yesterday and the day before that. Never a for sure thing.

 

[tazz]

No I think your statement is incorrect. You don't  have to believe it will happen. There is an alternative. You could look at the evidence. And then you'd know that it was extremely likely to happen, and it would be reasonable therefore to make plans for tomorrow.

You can understand that it isn't 100% certain to happen and still decide to make plans, without any belief. You don't have to believe in order to make plans.

I think this is an important point because figuring out what impact unfounded belief has on society is very useful. Saying that something requires belief when it doesn't undermines that process.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Not so much people I talk to face to face. Just generally in religion. I’m Christian but, there is so much fear among the denominations. Why?

Fear makes people easier to control.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Polite disagreement.
There is purpose. It’s to be loved and love in return . That is what Christianity as I have come to understand it to be is all about. It’s a love story of a father for his children. A God for his creations. And all the heartache and trouble that goes with that.
That’s what I believe. With respect to your own beliefs.

From a secular perspective, I sort of think the same way, but I'd swap out 'love' for 'respect and understanding.' To me, 'love' has all sorts of romantic meanings, and I don't love and random stranger on the street the same way I love Baroque music, or my fiance. I have learned to become more empathetic and understanding--even only on a surface level--than one who is quick to judge and be harsh towards others.

 

[Streetwise]

The battle of Har Megiddo(anglicised armageddon) is when all goyim coming to destroy Gods chosen people.

In revelation 19 it details that Israelis will be burying goyim(literally nations)non jews,for months !because so many goyim will be slaughtered by God .

It also says God calls all the scavenger birds(need to pray the scavenger birds don't go extinct ,it was thought one of the vulture family was extinct but they were found again),animals to clean the flesh, the approx figure is thought to be 200,000,000 goyim will be slaughtered .

There is a valley Hamongog to the east of the dead sea set aside to bury the cleaned skeletons

 

[Magna]

I have zero fear of a "rapture". If God exists, God will do whatever God decides to do with me. We are ALL going to die, no matter what. A very factual and sobering quote from someone I didn't expect: "We are all on death row.": Pauley Shore. I don't know if he was requoting or if that was original.

Also, is it a fear of the "rapture" that you say is prevalent in Christian faith or is it perhaps a more basic fear of God that's prevalent? I would say the latter in my experience. Clearly not everyone is that way, but in my own personal experience, there are people I know, even extended family I have who are deeply religious (Christian) and the fact is, their lives have been and continue to be very driven and motivated by fear. Their fear of God also manifests itself as fear of other things non-God related in their lives. In short, fear is a foundation of their lives.

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

As an outsider (I was not raised Christian, and my spiritual beliefs are rather secular) I can say ... a lot of Christian sects are very into fear. "The fear of God" is actually a common term. And I find it sad. What is originally meant to be a faith of acceptance and humility has turned to control.
.
I fear I'm getting too religious for these forums. I suppose my point is, control through fear is a common tactic. Any religion that touts forgiveness, and acts to the opposite, makes me wince.

You are right who would fear a loving God? It is about loving God not fearing Him, He is higher than all us humans and we are feeble and weak but if we make mistakes we do. That is human and the God I know is a God of mercy and grace who forgives them.
And if you love God, you will do your best to be a good hearted human and be authentic in all you do and that is what being a Christian should be about.

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

Polite disagreement.
There is purpose. It’s to be loved and love in return . That is what Christianity as I have come to understand it to be is all about. It’s a love story of a father for his children. A God for his creations. And all the heartache and trouble that goes with that.
That’s what I believe. With respect to your own beliefs.

Yes very true. He shows us love through our lives and helps us love others and feel loved by Him

 

[Vindiesel]

I used to have an imaginary friend when I was 5 years old which is typical at that age. One day I told my mom that Michael (my imaginary friend) was telling me to do bad things, hurt people and say bad words. So she toke me to the doctor and she said Michael went on vacation and isn't coming back and I believed her being of authority.

Then growing up I was raised catholic...baptized, communion, confirmed the whole bit. My parents were by no mean militant. Into my teenage years we just went for holidays and then just Christmas.

Worshiping a god by playing delusional cannibalism really flicked my prefrontal cortex hard after I remember the doctor telling my my imaginary friend didn't exist.

Later in life I settled on apatheist because either way it has no bearing on how I conduct my life.

I get the whole evidence that a god doesn't exist or does exist doesn't give proof to me is a rather moot approach even through there are 10000's of gods and by deductive probability one would question strictly based on that numerical value of authenticity. Sounds like pre-govermental times were conjured up through a book and campfire story gone out of hand to rein in the hedonism and build civilization to a degree. People feared death and the unknown and providing a being to blatantly answer it all to meet peoples demand was easy to do in times of shear chaos. It seems like an optimistic yet narcissist approach on life. You pray to get what you want (like your a random ant in the grass like he/she/it would care about your specific mortality); if you dont then god works in mysterious ways. Optimisism has its place but the common thing all humans share is pain, suffering, trauma and building wisdom to mitigate these risks and to help those closest to us get through these times. No special friends needed.

In regards to the rapture the only one I know of is by blondie. haha