Interesting note on eye contact

[tachyon]

(Honestly not NT bashing here - I don't mean that this applies to everyone all of the time, I have in mind all the young guys I see paying back huge loans so they can drive status symbols around so others think they're worthy. I'd rather know my own worth by my thoughts and deeds.. if I want a nice car, I'll save up till I can afford one.)

Ha ha! - now this is getting really off thread, but you have just piqued a special interest
Just as peacocks show a ridiculous display of tail feathers to attract interested pea-hens to mate with them in order to achieve genetic success, male humans use similar displays (such as expensive vehicles, watches etc.) to attract mates (not every female responds to this I know so please don't beat me up on that).

For the peacock, the risk is that all the extra plumage will make him slower & more vulnerable to predators, but he has no option if he is to achieve genetic success.
For the human male, the risk is identical (bankruptcy etc), but he can pull it off with good finance options . The genes don't care about the welfare of the vehicle carrying them.

Spiller - I also value my own worth, my thoughts & deeds (maybe ??)

 

[tachyon]

Just my opinion, but I'd rather have normal people experience what it is to have AS/ASD for 24 hours as it seems to me that being neurotypical can be extremely limiting and stressful..

I like that, but suspect that there will not be a long queue waiting for that experience

 

[Spiller]

Ha ha! - now this is getting really off thread, but you have just piqued a special interest
Just as peacocks show a ridiculous display of tail feathers to attract interested pea-hens to mate with them in order to achieve genetic success, male humans use similar displays (such as expensive vehicles, watches etc.) to attract mates (not every female responds to this I know so please don't beat me up on that).

For the peacock, the risk is that all the extra plumage will make him slower & more vulnerable to predators, but he has no option if he is to achieve genetic success.
For the human male, the risk is identical (bankruptcy etc), but he can pull it off with good finance options . The genes don't care about the welfare of the vehicle carrying them.

Spiller - I also value my own worth, my thoughts & deeds (maybe ??)

I just read the OP's blog again to remind myself what the thread's about - intimidating by forcing confrontation through eye contact - and wondered how this differs from being unable to stop staring into the eyes of someone you care about.. does that person feel intimidated at all? Is there an amount of time you should stare and then look away for a bit?
I've found myself, that when I'm talking to someone it makes them uncomfortable if I stare continuously at them (my natural inclination if I'm interested in what they're saying), so I count how long they look at me and look away on average and imitate that.

Our little aside still touches on the original subject, I think, (I say that cos I can't leave this alone, I'm fascinated too) in that, according to several books I've read on successful dating techniques and my own observations, the man should mimic the posture of the woman, making prolonged eye contact, etc, all to show interest, though all of this including conversation and personality, is only about 50% of the 'game', the rest being appearance, bearing and status.
All this makes me feel 'prickly'.. uncomfortable. When I look at someone, I see a person - the color of their skin, sex, height, weight, are all secondary and relatively unimportant to me. If someone must judge me by appearance first before who I am, I fail to understand why they get upset if I turn out to be less than honest as time goes by.. this method of selecting a partner is therefore surely flawed from the start.
I understand the advantage of finding a partner who can contribute/provide/is strong/capable, etc, but a term of friendship can determine these things far more adequately than a false display.. once the peacock's passed on his genes and then been killed by the next passing predator, all he's succeeded in doing is to perpetuate an illogical system.. natures fast food restaurant, maybe..
The young guy is going to carry the habit of living in debt into later life and be completely vulnerable, along with his partner, to the whims of government, economy and unscrupulous types.. I personally value my independence from 'the system' - I can maintain my own car, I'm renovating the boat I live on, I can clean up my own laptop, I'm not materialistic.. basically I'm not really vulnerable to those people who're in a position to rip me off.
This seems only sensible to me.

Does the "Maybe ??" indicate that you find self-worth hard to maintain?
I do, I have to work at it constantly, lest I start to doubt myself, consider myself 'less' than others - I've lived a life like that and have decided I don't want it to continue now!
I'm much happier for that realisation and my life is steadily improving.

 

[tachyon]

I've found myself, that when I'm talking to someone it makes them uncomfortable if I stare continuously at them (my natural inclination if I'm interested in what they're saying), so I count how long they look at me and look away on average and imitate that.

I'm a bit different. In a social situation I realise that eye contact is important and try to engage it on & off, but I'm never sure if I get the mix right. When listening to somebody deliver important information I must look away or I won't be able to process what they are saying.

according to several books I've read on successful dating techniques and my own observations, the man should mimic the posture of the woman, making prolonged eye contact, etc, all to show interest, though all of this including conversation and personality, is only about 50% of the 'game', the rest being appearance, bearing and status.

I have absolutely no idea how to deal with that and would probably come across as a complete fake/weirdo if I tried. Better to be perceived as just a 'bit odd'.

Does the "Maybe ??" indicate that you find self-worth hard to maintain?

Correct. It's sometimes a day-to-day (today be a 6 or 7) thing and I wish you well in maintaining your sense of 'self worth'.

Perhaps a topic for another thread, but I've read a bit of Richard Dawkins and wonder if NTs are more susceptible to the peacock/peahen style of partner selection than Aspies?

 

[Christopher Nicholson]

I can't stand eye contact. When I talk to people there is internal conversation in which I tell myself that I have to do some eye contact so the person knows that I am interested in the conversation.

The only situation that I look a guy squarely in the eyes is in the worst argument prior to fists swinging.

Over the years I wonder how many how many 2nd dates u would of had if I could master eye contact.

 

[King_Oni]

I still feel there's a big difference with me in terms of having actual eye contact or looking at someone. I've been accused of staring through people.

It's funny when people tell you "look at me when I'm talking to you" and you do look at their general direction, but still... there's no one home, so to speak. People never address that, so really... how much do they care for eye contact? As long as you give the impression...

Also; I've found this quite remarkable nowadays. No matter who I talk to, either friends, relatives.. heck, even my dad; he cannot maintain eye contact and just talks to me while staring at the tv or his phone. And they still use "lack of eye contact" as one of the indicators for autism :\ if that's the way we interact in 2015 and lack of eye contact is an indicator for autism, I don't even think it's remotely odd, there's an increase in diagnosis; that train of thought stems from a documentary I saw last night. I might get into that in a blog though

 

[Spiller]

I can't stand eye contact. When I talk to people there is internal conversation in which I tell myself that I have to do some eye contact so the person knows that I am interested in the conversation.

The only situation that I look a guy squarely in the eyes is in the worst argument prior to fists swinging.

Over the years I wonder how many how many 2nd dates u would of had if I could master eye contact.

I wonder how many first dates I'd have got if I was able to recognise flirting behavior and make adequate eye contact!

The aggressive stare thing may answer a long standing puzzle for me - I've gone into a pub twice, literally just walked through the door, looked around at the people.. and been grabbed by the shirt by a guy, then forced up against the door or wall as if he's about to hit me. There was a third incident, but the mans partner dissuaded him. I'd never seen any of them before, had no idea what it was all about - still don't.
So maybe they just misread me..

 

[epath13]

I've noticed nobody really looks each other in the eye all the time . I think it's expected that a person will look at the one (preferably at the face) who talk to him/her to acknowledge that he/she is listening.
Sometimes people on the spectrum appear they are not listening because they might look away, I guess that's where this whole eye contact insanity came from. It's not natural for people to look each other straight in the eye and maintain this stare for prolonged period of time unless one is trying to show dominance to another. But in some cases people with Autism do that as well, but I think it's more staring at someone's eyes rather than into. My son does it when he's trying really hard to understand what a person's saying. I did it because I was fascinated with eyes in general. But I also had eye contact issues, those 2 might contradict each other, but I know they can coexist.

 

[On the Inside]

I always have a dialog in my head about eye contact when talking to people. That is why not making eye contact is better if I really need to absorb info.

The dialog includes; which eye do I look into, can someone tell if I'm looking somewhere else on their face, looking somewhere else on the face is just as distracting, if I look into the eyes when should I glance away, then when should I glance back?

It's all very distracting.

 

[Ylva]

The dialog includes; which eye do I look into, can someone tell if I'm looking somewhere else on their face, looking somewhere else on the face is just as distracting, if I look into the eyes when should I glance away, then when should I glance back?

Hah! That's what I do!

"I'm supposed to look into their eyes, how can I do that? I can only focus on a point, not two. Wish I could pan out to her face, like on film… [memory of every movie scene in which the camera pans out I've ever seen] …Wait, what did she say?"

Although the last question is redundant, since eyecontact tends to cancel out the part of my brain that interprets words and remembers what was said anyway.

 

[Cogs Of My Cranium]

In social situations it feels like 'blinds' or 'shutters' come halfway down my eyes like my eyes are at least halfway encased.

 

[Shawn D]

Interesting ideas! This might explain why I challenged my peers to staring contests when I was a kid. [emoji15] I was trying to assert my Alpha position. It didn't work.
It also explains why it's easier for me to make eye contact when someone else is talking, but nearly impossible when I need to say something. I can't think of what I want to say and make eye contact at the same time.
Though, when I make eye contact with whoever is talking, I often have no idea what they just said.

 

[Sully]

Though, when I make eye contact with whoever is talking, I often have no idea what they just said.

This happens to me. As soon as I make eye contact my brain gets scrambled.

 

[On the Inside]

It also explains why it's easier for me to make eye contact when someone else is talking, but nearly impossible when I need to say something. I can't think of what I want to say and make eye contact at the same time.
Though, when I make eye contact with whoever is talking, I often have no idea what they just said.

That is well put. Even if what I have to say is the result of inflamed emotions, it is hard to talk and make "good" eye contact at the same time. If I want to be concise in my communication, (which is of great interest to me) it's best done with minimal eye contact. I understand emotionally why others would like me to look at them more often when I'm talking, but they're going to get more out of me informatively if they would be satisfied with less eye contact.

I can follow along with what someone is saying if I am making eye contact, but I have much better concentration when looking elsewhere.

I am working on finding a point at which there is just enough eye contact to satisfy the eye contact hunger of others, yet keep myself from going off track.

 

[Tigris]

In the animal kingdom, eye contact is a form of confrontation. But it is strange to see humans using that as normal.

 

[Spiller]

I always wondered about this.. animals blink slowly a lot and narrow their eyes to take the threat out of eye contact, but humans do everything the exact opposite way..
I remember a post ages ago mentioning a possible connection between autism and more animalistic behavior/body language, such as when dogs tilt their heads when they're curious/puzzled - I do the dog-head-tilt all the time myself.. I think I posted at the time, wondering if this might explain our better relation to animals than people.. I also like to smell things..

 

[tachyon]

I remember a post ages ago mentioning a possible connection between autism and more animalistic behavior/body language, such as when dogs tilt their heads when they're curious/puzzled - I do the dog-head-tilt all the time myself.. I think I posted at the time, wondering if this might explain our better relation to animals than people.. I also like to smell things.

Ha
I also do the head tilt thing & have a strong sense of smell

 

[Ylva]

It's almost as if Western culture is based on objective rudeness.

 

[Spiller]

It's almost as if Western culture is based on objective rudeness.

I wonder if it's just western culture..
As a species we have a number of innate expressions we use/recognise, like smiling and frowning, the rest are learned via peers/culture.
I'm sure there are cultures where an averted gaze is a sign of respect, though I don't know if this is contrived body language for superiors, or a learned response.. be interesting to find out.

 

[indigo basil]

Now, I don't consider myself an "Alpha" nor "Omega" male, I don't see the world that way. But it depresses me to think that there are people out there for whom these rules are of prime importance.

They can't help it. They HAVE to follow those stupid rules. They are instinctive with NTs.