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There’s lots of finger poking in the chest while I very loudly tell them of all their deficiencies and this is deliberately done in front of everyone else.
Who do they talk about when that person is there? Either move that person down or know that they are trying to move that person down.
Who do they talk about only when they're not around? Move the victim of gossip up or at least keep them equal.
Does that pan out?
Here, I've noticed that the bully is the puppet-master for the landlord and I've seen that before.
Maybe the third rule is, who do they not need to complain about? That is a person is supposed power, but who they control like a puppet, so put the puppet lower.
Then there’s others like me who suffered cruelly as children, once I became an adult and got to feel what it was like to be respected and treated fairly I decided that never again in my life will I be a victim.
The trouble always starts when for one reason or another we fail to comply to this hierarchy, when we resist the rest of the social group will instinctively defend the hierarchy and try to force us to conform. If we retaliate we are seen as the one in the wrong. All of a sudden the entire groups seems to be against us.
That does seem to be accurate. I will say that minor pushbacks (done in ego-stroking ways) seem to be the codified way to pushback without them coming to kill you, but it's a complicated thing to find all the rules for.
That probably is mostly going to be when everyone considers you below them. I think in these cases the bully leaders grant war- time promotions to the prior bottom-feeders, if there had been any people ranked lower. Then the newly-promoted members (who do retain that higher status permanently) are so happy to be included for once they bully too. They're told "well at very least you're better than them." (Generally in exactly so many words.)
The comparisons spoken are probably another way to find the hierarchy.
That probably is mostly going to be when everyone considers you below them. I think in these cases the bully leaders grant war- time promotions to the prior bottom-feeders, if there had been any people ranked lower. Then the newly-promoted members (who do retain that higher status permanently) are so happy to be included for once they bully too. They're told "well at very least you're better than them." (Generally in exactly so many words.)
I see it as a form of mental illness that operates very much like a computer virus for the human brain. Victims become bullies and in that way the ideal replicates itself and spreads through communities on vectors very much like the spread of a virus.
That mental illness has a well known name and is well documented by the way, but the average layman's understanding of it is very misleading. The victim/replicants can often learn the errors of their ways and change, the people suffering the actual mental illness can not.
The illness is called Megalomania. The layman's description is "the delusion of godlike power" but nothing could be further from the truth. Megalomania is based in insecurity and a very low sense of self esteem along with an attention deficit component. They feel incredibly inferior around other people and they don't have the patience to learn how to fit in with others, and the first time they rebel against the situation and start pushing other people around it gives them a sense of power and control, something they desperately desire.
To suit their own socio-political agendas within the group some people will temporarily back the bully and cheer him/her on and the bully sees this as social acceptance. This becomes a set pattern for them because it's so easy to follow, like a simple three step plan out of a book. In their minds people are just so easy to deal with in this way and it all makes perfect sense to them.
But their insecurity and emotional vulnerability never leaves them, not for a moment. It's a constant recurring cycle in their brain 24/7, and the only momentary relief they get is by proving once again that they are someone people look up to and admire.
That's what it's really all about to them, they want to be seen as a person that others look up to. That's the really important part to them, simply proving it to themselves doesn't change much, what they desperately need to see is others also believing they are worthy. Constant proof and reproof that they're at the top of the social ladder.
I wonder if that's been renamed as Narcicistic Personality Disorder.
I do worry quite a lot about the "victims become perpetrators" narrative because I think it tends to conflate a number of phenomenon and what the public gets out of it is to blame victims. I do think that victims of child abuse for example are at a severe disadvantage when they start primary school because they haven't seen positive social skills and have probably either been actively missocialized or taught to tolerate abuse (and future bullies will pick up on that).
Edit: i do wonder if the less-abused/favorite child does get trained to abuse. That I would believe.
Yes, they try to tell you the opposite, but they could better be labled
"Humans as Buyable Resources--Purchasing Department."
They're just there to keep the right number of humans in stock like any other office supply the business orders.
They used to be "trapped in the amber of corporate structure" like the rest of us. They used a lot of "dirty tricks" (e.g. HR + Management many-to-one ambushes) that are unfair and annoying, but once you understood that they worked only for the company civilized interactions were possible.
I don't think that's the case with the subverted and weaponized 2015-2025 version of HR. Many HR department became "part of the problem". And as such, facilitated the near destruction of teamwork and cooperation in large organizations.
Treating people as functionally identical (anti-meritocracy) means the best people leave, and the remaining exploiters destroy everything.
The ongoing drama of Ubisoft falling apart due to hubris, and Kepler Interactive "betting" on experience, talen, and excellence in execution is IMO a good example. Kepler International and Sandfall demonstrating excellence (technical and commercial) on a small budget.
Note: "YouTube is claiming a budget of USD 10 million, which IMO feels light. I suspect they shared some of the revenue and/or profits to achieve that.
You've mentioned a couple of different issues in your post but I'll respond to the one I feel is most important first.
Social Hierarchy - The Hen Pecking Order. This is a game most autistic peole are not capable of playing. Here's a copy of one of my previous posts on the topic:
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The single biggest problem Autistic people face both within and outside the workplace is our inability to conform to social hierarchies. This is completely different and unrelated to the hierarchy between employer and employee, that hierarchy is easily understood and acceptable.
Many people require a form of hierarchy in their social environments, there has to be a leader of the pack and this usually means themselves. These social hierarchies often have quite rigid structures and the great majority of the world’s population will automatically fit themselves in to their correct positions within these hierarchies. Most people don’t even realise they’re doing this, it’s just natural and instinctive for them.
The hen pecking order.
Autistic people are different, many of us can’t even see the social cues that delineate these hierarchies, and those of us that can perceive it as a form of submission to a bully – which it is.
The trouble always starts when for one reason or another we fail to comply to this hierarchy, when we resist the rest of the social group will instinctively defend the hierarchy and try to force us to conform. If we retaliate we are seen as the one in the wrong. All of a sudden the entire groups seems to be against us.
All people are different and so all people will respond in different ways. None of us are able to cope with these situations and many of us will shut down. Then there’s others like me who suffered cruelly as children, once I became an adult and got to feel what it was like to be respected and treated fairly I decided that never again in my life will I be a victim.
I don’t respond kindly. You have an idea of what ASD2 hyperfocus is, pick on me and you find out what happens when that’s turned to anger. Not actually violent unless hit first but the threat is very real, I want them to try and hit me and they know it. I’m highly intelligent and highly socially skilled and I know how to take down a bully. There’s lots of finger poking in the chest while I very loudly tell them of all their deficiencies and this is deliberately done in front of everyone else. I’m not a bad orator and I do love an audience. The threat of the removal of their base of power coupled with the threat of explosive violence if they dare try that path.
I changed jobs a lot. I’d beat the bully but then I’d also have associations of high stress with that workplace so I’d quit and move on. I averaged less than 6 months at any one workplace.
Different workplace environments, not workplace sizes, make a huge difference. Environments that require a very high degree of physical skill and dedication such as the trades and engineering don’t have that social hierarchy. In those areas every single one of them knows their worth in hard coin, the better you are the more you can earn and that’s the only thing that counts. Every single one of them is an egotistical powerhouse and if you try the alpha male crap on any of them they will fight back.
Working with truly skilled individuals is a pleasure because of the lack of any social hierarchy. Land in a workplace filled with half skilled wannabees and that social hierarchy is there in full force. Retail environments are even worse.
The lower the level of actual skill required in a workplace the more this social hierarchy is evident. When social skills are necessary in a job then the social hierarchy becomes absolute.
This social hierarchy topic is the key to so much. This is why most autistic people prefer one on one social situations rather than a group of friends – when it’s just the two of you there’s no hierarchy crap.
I often see people whose morals change to fit the group's beliefs. It's necessary to survive in the workplace. Hazing, exclusion, workplace politics, these are all essential to climb the ladder. If you asked them about their morals, they'd talk about how good they are. I know they're trying to fit in but it makes me if people feel as much empathy as they say they do, because most people don't seem to experience much guilt
Am I being naïve for believing what people preach when they act differently? Should I grow up and learn to be two-faced and immoral? I'm tired of believing all the lies people spout, trying to measure up to ideals no one actually cares about; it's like chasing a unicorn. I'm not a good person by far, but even so, I wish I could be more callous
Please help me, I need to learn to survive in the workplace. I can't go on like this anymore. I want to stop being so weak and I'm tired of the 'just be yourself' lies. I need to learn to haze and gossip and not feel guilty. 99% of the working world revolves around people and networking, I can't keep being so pathetic, so naïve. I know there's no such thing as a human connection because it's just a game of social hierarchy and dominance
Okay, I'm going to try to figure some of this out.
Firstly I will say to try to have a complete plan before you act because first and foremost, in most places, most people will be pretty much good people trying to help others as long as their needs are met. If you're someone who ever feels guilty, chances are you'll be better off going with that assumption for a good long while before switching to war tactics.
Second, maybe try to write that hierarchy in order although it will probably change.
Thirdly, try to figure out how to match the level of the severity of the verbal B.S. if someone says something mildy and accidentally rude, you don't want to escalate to death threats or something for multiple reasons. 1) that's a little too out-of-control...a lot too out-of-control 2) you have nowhere to escalate to if they escalate and your threats start getting either boring or getting you into serious trouble. 3) if it was an accident you've just lost an ally who would not only be not caustic towards you but perhaps slightly protective of you because they feel badly for accidentally slighting you.
So far the factors that I can think of in terms of levels of severity are firmness of statement (just giving vibes that you are better than them), public-shame (usually not wise within the first couple of interactions), and content/severity.
My next thoughts are that you will probably need to have a range of responses prepared. I would probably start with the early-phase shutdowns that you need to have when you first meet people.
Early phase skills that I can think of include
-extensive masking skills
-gather your army/allies long before the war
-prevent the enemy from knowing your weaknesses (some humility is good, but figure out a good strategy and be intentional about it). Unfortunately some victims of bullying and abuse tend to speak negatively of themselves in a genuine and open way. This can help non-perpetrators understand you and reduce the friction with them as they may be accommodating to you when they realize that you are genuinely trying, however, it can go wrong in the hands of bullies.
-calculated kindness: I've discovered that bullies will test me early on to order me to do things for them and giving in seems to be the mistake. I think that it is good to be kind but be strategic about it.
Fresh starts
These skills will probably be most helpful when starting fresh in a new environment but may also apply to a degree to damage-control in your current environment and new people who join your environment.
Further, it's worth working on all of this in your current environment so that when you get a chance for a fresh start, you've already taken the opportunity to hone your anti-bullying skills that you need in your current environment.
I think, though, that it is easier to prevent these issues or mitigate them early on rather than deal with it later, so on the bright side, it probably gets easier from here.
I wanted to add a note to this section to say that especialy if you're male, keep in mind that gender absolutely matters in who you insult and how. What might elicit a cordial laugh and an "okay you've got me" from a guy might get you hunted to the end of the earth if you do it to a woman and vice vera depending on the insult. Severity is not level across the genders.
Yep, the more you give the more they will demand. There is no end to it, and what is especially important to them is that others see you simpering to them. That is where you can break the cycle.
That is also where standard workplace relations practices fall over. Normally if you have an issue with someone the proper thing to do is to pull the person to one side and speak to them privately, to give them a chance to respond honestly without embarrassing them in front of everyone else. The bully knows this and uses it against you. They'll be sympathetic and understanding to your face while using everything you say as research fodder for how to belittle you in front of others.
So it requires a judgement call - are they really bullying you or are you misjudging the situation? If you decide it's actual bullying and respond accordingly then you have to commit and there's no turning back. The only way to stop a bully from picking on you is by public humiliation. What they desperately want is public approval and admiration, everyone laughing at them reduces their social standing in their eyes. If they suffer a couple of humiliations while attacking you they'll leave you alone after that rather than suffer further loss of social standing.
In short - no. A common autistic problem - monotropism - makes it very difficult to be aware of the reactions of everyone else in the group. We're disadvantaged by our tendency to only focus on one person at a time.
I either walk in to a new situation and let everyone know right from the start that I stand at the top of the heap, or if that doesn't work I stand aloof but off to one side and let them all think I'm some sort of weirdo. As I actually am some sort of weirdo that situation doesn't bother me.
You're quite correct that it's very different between men and women. Women seem much more drawn towards this type of social hierarchy and most play the game very seriously. They will in general operate by talking about you behind your back and deliberately trying to turn other women against you, where as a man attempting this will usually lose social standing amongst other men. A man is expected to be able to sort his own problems instead of sooking to other people about it.
The way women dress and comport themselves in public is also often tied to this hierarchy and social standing. When a woman gets dressed up to the nines she's rarely thinking about how men will see her, she's far more concerned about how other women will see her.
I tend to let it go on for ages and give them many many chances, forgive easily, etc, so usually by the time I've admitted someone is a bully they're pretty bad...and even then I seek some ways to play nice anyway and give them the benefit of the doubt.
Tbh that seems to be a bad decision.
But early on I need to get better at sussing this out.
The only way to stop a bully from picking on you is by public humiliation. What they desperately want is public approval and admiration, everyone laughing at them reduces their social standing in their eyes. If they suffer a couple of humiliations while attacking you they'll leave you alone after that rather than suffer further loss of social standing.
Googling:
Note for self and others:
"Monotropism is a cognitive strategy often associated with autism, where an individual focuses intensely on a small number of interests at a time, leading to deep engagement but difficulty in shifting attention. This can result in challenges with multitasking and social interactions, as well as heightened sensory experiences."
You're quite correct that it's very different between men and women. Women seem much more drawn towards this type of social hierarchy and most play the game very seriously. They will in general operate by talking about you behind your back and deliberately trying to turn other women against you, where as a man attempting this will usually lose social standing amongst other men. A man is expected to be able to sort his own problems instead of sooking to other people about it.
Until my current living situation, I've never had nearly this extreme of a toxic environment.
Goes into a tangent that you can probably skip.
I've generally lived around a lot of hard-core Chritians (by which I mean more of them practicing what they preach than not) so I'd been lucky in that regard. Many of the women in those situations (except those in power), were pretty genuine and intentional, which made them easier to interact with.
Even when interacting with nonchristians, many of my friends were intellectuals who, while not necessarily socially fluent, tend to also be pretty genuine.
So, I haven't necessarily seen that in the wider world, but here reading books seems to be a shocking activity. (I think it must be a them-problem, because someone usually has to do a lot wrong before I start thinking of them as stupid. If anything I tend to assume the opposite too often leading me to believe that unintentional behaviors are intentional in hapless people until I inquire. So I think they are exclusively projecting the thought that I might think they are stupid. I've not done anything to make them think that.)
So basically idk if that's typical, but locally it is.
I actually meant that there are insults that you don't say to a woman and vice versa. Women are still largely viewed (subconciously) by their worthiness of being wives and mothers even when they're 50 years old and pursing high-level careers.
If you tell a guy that his apartment looks like a squirrel's nest, many of them will laugh, agree, and take it in stride. If you say that to a female, it is more insulting, far more insulting than telling her that her parents should have been sterilized to prevent her birth. She'll think you're bizarre, but it's less damaging.
Same with smells. If a guy farts who cares. If someone else has a stinky apartment and it's close to the apartment of a woman, it's a big deal against her. It's ridiculous.
When a woman gets dressed up to the nines she's rarely thinking about how men will see her, she's far more concerned about how other women will see her.
Haha in at very least that regard and perhaps others you've hit the nail on the head in a way some women miss.
Yes, absolutely. There are certainly women who dress up for men, but it's mostly more of a social/image thing. Dress is complicated for women.
Tangent: it is annoying that almost every man will look amazing in half-decent suit/uniform and most apparel will make at least one woman look like a fat sack of potatoes when she is not.
I tend to let it go on for ages and give them many many chances, forgive easily, etc, so usually by the time I've admitted someone is a bully they're pretty bad...and even then I seek some ways to play nice anyway and give them the benefit of the doubt.
That's where it's so hard to make the right call. You have to make your mind up very early on because if you let a pattern set it's almost impossible to break it.
As a child I learnt the hard way the when someone asks for forgiveness what they're really asking is "Are you dumb enough to fall for the same trick twice.". Might sound a bit harsh but it is what it is.
My father is one of those sorts of people, home life wasn't always a lot of fun. My sister and I were always far too strong willed and never caved in to him and he just never liked either of us, he loved our younger brother though.
That's another constant about these people - they always create division, never unity.
Tangent: it is annoying that almost every man will look amazing in half-decent suit/uniform and most apparel will make at least one woman look like a fat sack of potatoes when she is not.
Although I scrub up alright if I try I never needed to dress up to impress people, it's a lot more to do with body language and ego and the way I present myself. That's the way the hierarchy gets established between men.
One night in my regular pub I stood up and started walking towards the bar, the bar girl noticed me as I did so I held up two fingers and she nodded. So as I got to the bar she was pouring the second pint for me. A woman standing at the bar piped up - "How did you get served so quick? I've been standing here for ages.".
Autism - honest answer before thinking of it's effect - "It's because I have presence.".
That's where it's so hard to make the right call. You have to make your mind up very early on because if you let a pattern set it's almost impossible to break it.
As a child I learnt the hard way the when someone asks for forgiveness what they're really asking is "Are you dumb enough to fall for the same trick twice.". Might sound a bit harsh but it is what it is.
Hmmm with abusers, certainly, with others I'm not sure. I might have to weigh that idea. Certainly I've apologized for cutting someone off (speaking-wise) before, but I suspect that you're only talking about bigger apologies.
Hmmm with abusers, certainly, with others I'm not sure. I might have to weigh that idea. Certainly I've apologized for cutting someone off (speaking-wise) before, but I suspect that you're only talking about bigger apologies.
I always apologise where I know I'm wrong but I never try to excuse myself. And it's the same when people wrong me, I don't want to hear about how sorry they are or why they did it, what I want to hear is that it won't happen again.
As a child I learnt the hard way the when someone asks for forgiveness what they're really asking is "Are you dumb enough to fall for the same trick twice.". Might sound a bit harsh but it is what it is.
I always apologise where I know I'm wrong but I never try to excuse myself. And it's the same when people wrong me, I don't want to hear about how sorry they are or why they did it, what I want to hear is that it won't happen again.
Those both reminds me of one drill sergeant who used to say to rookies: "Do not apologize, just correct the (add your favorite profanity here) problem/error/mistake".
I have always been fond of that pattern of thought: more effective action, less meaningless words.
Of course, apologies are an action, and I have found them being a great defusing tool even when I have nothing to apologize. But I don't myself want to hear a same kind excess of apologies I tend to say to keep up a peace. It is just that some people are funny in the way that they have some kind of peace of mind from pleasantries.
But being a door mat is not an option either. I have always had troubles determining when to fight back and when not. Situational awareness problems...
So when they're constantly trying to insult you, you don't respond but it's because you turn it into a fight then? If there's no crowd do you just let them carry on until the audience is there?
Oh no no no no no. Insults are met with like kind - but - I grew up with Poms and quick witted banter and there's a real art to insulting someone. The idea is to get all the rest of the crowd laughing at them and it was a game I was quite good at. In fact my mouth is often far faster than my brain.
If there's no crowd to please then it's me laughing at them and ridiculing them, but very few will try to have a go at you in private. In private they're usually as nice as pie hoping you'll let your guard down. It's all about social standing to a bully and they want other people to see them dominating you.
Victimisation is something different. When people start trying to push you around and tell you what to do and how to do it is very different do a few poorly formulated insults. Trying to push me around is usually ignored and I start treating the person with complete disdain, I lose all respect for them.
But if it's just words - I'm reasonably intelligent and I grew up with Poms, it's a game I'm likely to win every time:
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Pete's Printery leased out some of it's upstairs office space to a small sports magazine, no we didn't print it, that's not what we were geared up for. Towards the end of every day a young person would come down from their offices and empty all of their waste paper baskets into our big waste paper bale. On my first day in the job, after this person had left, Geoff asked me "Is it a boy or a girl?". There really was no way of telling by looks, this person really was completely androgynous, I really couldn't tell.
Geoff knew this, he kept on at it every day, "Come on! Is it a boy or a girl?", he liked the feeling of me not having an answer. About a week later Geoff was in the darkroom making plates when this person came down to empty bins, there was no one else around, I held my hand out to shake and said "Hi, I'm Andrew, by the way." She said "Hi, I'm Jane." and shook my hand. I said "I'm sorry but I'm a bit too busy to chat just now, but it's nice to know someone's name when you say G'day.", she said she agreed, we never spoke to each other again but it is nice to know who you're waving to and saying G'day to.
As soon as she left I shut down my press and ran into the darkroom, "Hey Geoff! I found out, it's a girl!". He asked me if I'm sure and I said "No, I'm not sure, I know!" It's a girl!" He asked me how I know and I said "I asked her. She's a girl. She told me!" This panicked poor Geoff, he never thought of asking what it was that I'd actually asked but he spent the best part of that afternoon sneaking upstairs listening for tears or recriminations which were of course nonexistent.
in at very least that regard and perhaps others you've hit the nail on the head in a way some women miss.
